Incident at Oshkosh

This does not work well in a tricycle gear plane. The geometry of the gear is going to try to straighten you out when the wheel hits and send you off the side. Note he is teaching this as part of taildragger training.
 
The guy in this video teaches some advanced flying techniques. Click here for his website. If follow his website and often comment on his articles. Please don't take this as an insult, it's not intended that way, but some guys only learn until they have their license in hand. I've flown with guys in a 172 where if they didn't put in one notch of flaps on downwind, one on base, and one on final, it screwed up everything else they did. To teach the masses how to fly, they often simplify things.

I like to know what my plane and I are capable of if something goes wrong. I was with a good pilot the other day that had a horrible bounce on landing, then added throttle and went around... perfect. Then he said, "That was embarassing." I laughed and said it shouldn't be. We're all human and you made a great decision.
 
Dr. O said:
There are reasons why I have given up going to fly-in's
And guys like this Malibu driver are high on the list
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Is it because you don't want to see it happen, or are you afraid it will happen to you?
 
Henning said:
This does not work well in a tricycle gear plane. The geometry of the gear is going to try to straighten you out when the wheel hits and send you off the side. Note he is teaching this as part of taildragger training.
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Works perfectly in my tri cycle plane.. I go so far as to hit the centerline with the nose wheel every time...... I will fire up the Go Pro and make a few videos... I get the tower to give me a "SHORT APPROACH" and from pattern altitude to on the ground, I can usually do it in about 25-30 seconds.
 
N801BH said:
Works perfectly in my tri cycle plane.. I go so far as to hit the centerline with the nose wheel every time...... I will fire up the Go Pro and make a few videos... I get the tower to give me a "SHORT APPROACH" and from pattern altitude to on the ground, I can usually do it in about 25-30 seconds.
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Try it in a Malibu with 4 passengers, bags, some fuel into the busiest airport in the world after blowing the turn to final.
 
That's not remotely a 60 degree bank, 90 degree turn.
 
N801BH said:
Works perfectly in my tri cycle plane.. I go so far as to hit the centerline with the nose wheel every time...... I will fire up the Go Pro and make a few videos... I get the tower to give me a "SHORT APPROACH" and from pattern altitude to on the ground, I can usually do it in about 25-30 seconds.
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I would be very interested in seeing the video of you skipping a tire sideways and maintaining your turn.
 
champ driver said:
Let me clarify my earlier statement better.
I never said that starting a 60 degree bank to final 30' off the ground is safe or smart. Continuing a 30 degree bank turn, well under control to a very short final in something like a Champ is not a big deal, and even a Malibu shouldn't be a problem, if done properly.

This looks like the classic hard turn to final too low and too slow which has killed others in years past. In fact I saw one back in the 70's at Oshkosh, hard turn to final, trying not to drift past the runway, stalled it and it rolled over as it hit, 2 killed on board.
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I believe you, but it has been stated here by more than one to "turn final at 30' with a bank of 60 degrees" (paraphrasing).
 
Any word on the survivors? I can't find anything. Looks like one was critical and another was serious, a third was fair and 3 were treated and released(one bystander).

I wonder about the story that another airplane pulled out onto the runway. And even if it did, that's not what "caused the Malibu to crash" as the article stated.
 
From the plane's owner (not on board):

Piper Forum said:
Sorry it took so long for me to chime in. As everyone knows my plane, N4BP, crashed yesterday. I have been in contact with my friend who was piloting the airplane since the accident happened. He first called me from the ambulance and gave me a short version of the events. I have spoken with him numerous times since and think I have a good idea as to what happened. I also pulled the ATC recordings that coincide with the story I was told.

Kenny was cleared tomake his descent and cleared land at the Green Dot by way of making base once abeam the numbers. About 30 seconds after he is cleared to land the tower controller says "Malibu I have a plane on the runway continue your turn, keep the turn coming and land orange dot" 40 seconds after that the tower controller announces that the field is closed.

According to Kenny, he saw a twin engine plane, likely a baron take the runway. He assumed that the plane was going to hold for release as there was no radio chatter from the tower telling the baron to takeoff. Kenny then saw the baron starting his takeoff roll which would have put the Malibu and baron on a collision course at the green dot. The tower controller instructed him to land at the Orange dot which was 1500 feet sooner. On his short final he was at 90 kts and already had power out of the plane. He cut power and tried landing short, the plane entered a stall that was unrecoverable. He estimates that he stalled at 250-300 ft agl. Once in the stall he attempted to add full power and recover but there was no elevator/aileron/rudder response.

The middle seat occupants walked away. His father in the back seat suffered a fractured femur and collapsed lung. The passenger in the co-pilot seat took the worst hit and is still in ICU. Kenny suffered some nasty head lacerations, broken ribs and a fractured ankle.

Truly unfortunate situation. I'd like to know more about the airplane that incurred the runway. Last I knew the FAA/NTSB/Tower personnel were trying to find the plane. Who knows if they will be able to or not. How can you maintain controlled airspace and runway environment when you have no way of identifying aircraft other than by their color? I can't believe that this type of procedure and activity are continued to be used. It's a flawed system and something needs to be done to better handle the traffic. Close the airport for arrivals only on the main runway? It doesn't excuse the fact that my buddy found himself in a power off stall that could have been avoided but measures need to be taken to ensure this type of incursion doesn't happen again at OSH or anywhere for that matter.

One last thought.... Who is going to land a PA46 at the mid point of the runway? He should have been given the whole strip. I know the pilot can always say "unable....." Lets try and use this as a learning experience and not lambaste my buddy for what he didn't do. This accident could have very easily turned out much worse than it did.

Brandon Cerecke
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Lots of blame there, but not much on his pilot who is ultimately responsible.

One thing I agree with it that it's unfortunate but if you're going to fly into Airventure you need to be mentally ready for any possible situation.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Lots of blame there, but not much on his pilot who is ultimately responsible.

One thing I agree with it that it's unfortunate but if you're going to fly into Airventure you need to be mentally ready for any possible situation.
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UNABLE........Any PIC needs to remember those words.....

If it ain't right, DON'T force it...:no:
 
Wow..very unfortunate, you have a split second to make a decision and to go around isn't always the first thought.
 
That's also the pilot/owner's side of the story which might be what actually happened, or it might not.

I'm just glad they all survived at least for now... My dad called me right after he shut down and told me what happened... And he said that the pilot/occupants were definitely dead. And it made me sick.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
That's also the pilot/owner's side of the story which might be what actually happened, or it might not.

I'm just glad they all survived at least for now... My dad called me right after he shut down and told me what happened... And he said that the pilot/occupants were definitely dead. And it made me sick.
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It's closer to what I expected given the pictures. Not much there suggested a wing drag entry, they have rotational damage which isn't readily apparent in the pics. It looked to me like it got slammed in.
 
The smoke was pretty apparent, and I think that fire is associated with dead occupants in most cases so that's probably what my dad was going on. I'm just glad that the incident that unfolded didn't cause him to make a mistake. Really glad he had a seasoned instructor onboard.
 
Just thinking about his comment about runway length, it's a 6100' runway. I believe the green dot is 1500' from the orange, how far is the orange from the threshold? Even if it's 1000' that's still a 3600' runway remaining. Should be more than enough for a Malibu judging from what I've seen them do at my home base daily. Seems like a lot of blaming people other than the pilot.

I'm also curious how much time in type the pilot had, since it's not his plane.
 
StinkBug said:
Just thinking about his comment about runway length, it's a 6100' runway. I believe the green dot is 1500' from the orange, how far is the orange from the threshold? Even if it's 1000' that's still a 3600' runway remaining. Should be more than enough for a Malibu judging from what I've seen them do at my home base daily. Seems like a lot of blaming people other than the pilot.

I'm also curious how much time in type the pilot had, since it's not his plane.
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Yup.

3600 is fare game for many turbo props.

Should have just gone around right off the bat.

From that first photo of the smoke I thought this was a fatality situation, so yeah it could have been much worse. Speedy recovery.
 
StinkBug said:
Seems like a lot of blaming people other than the pilot.
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I think it's more speculating on contributing factors that may have led to the pilot's final error, assuming it was pilot error to rush that landing from an unstabilized approach.

Best to remember that most pilots have successfully saved all sorts of bizarre approaches hundreds or even thousands of times before a single incident gets out of hand. It's not surprising that past successes can and do lead pilots to a certain level of complacency, and perhaps set pilots up for unrealistic assumptions about their own skills.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The smoke was pretty apparent, and I think that fire is associated with dead occupants in most cases so that's probably what my dad was going on. I'm just glad that the incident that unfolded didn't cause him to make a mistake. Really glad he had a seasoned instructor onboard.
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I'm sitting on the field, at the other end of the runway from where it happened. No one who saw the fireball and smoke believed it was survivable.

As you can see from my pic, however, we are/were too far away to see any detail. Glad it turned out the way it did.

What will be interesting to know is if they can get there hands on the tape (if one exists) for the local Rwy 27 controller -- the "portable controller" responsible for departures. That would tell us whether there was actually a plane cleared onto the runway ahead of landing traffic, or whether that's BS.

The tape we have all heard is for the tower, which isn't the whole story.
 
N801BH said:
UNABLE........Any PIC needs to remember those words.....

If it ain't right, DON'T force it...:no:
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Exactly. The PIC has the final "Go / No Go" decision. This is simply a case of not being able to comply with ATC request, not knowing the capabilities of the fully loaded plane, and not inititating the corrective actions when required.

It is not mandatory to "hit the dot" if "Unable". ATC gives you instructions to land. If you don't feel comfortable say "Unable" or just go around. He should have hit the power and gone around. Go arounds happen dozens of times at OSH every day.
 
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The biggest wtf in my mind is the amended landing clearance was to land 1500' SOONER, not later. If he was setting up for green dot and was then given orange on 27, I could see him pushing the nose over/touching down hot trying to get it down earlier than he was setting up for, but slowing into a stall at 250' agl? That's something I might expect if told to touch down 1500' LATER and he tried to milk it without adding power.

I sincerely hope the one critical passenger pulls through. Ultimately this just sounds like a moment of stress/panic on the part of the pilot.
 
Auburn2002 said:
The biggest wtf in my mind is the amended landing clearance was to land 1500' SOONER, not later. If he was setting up for green dot and was then given orange on 27, I could see him pushing the nose over/touching down hot trying to get it down earlier than he was setting up for, but slowing into a stall at 250' agl? That's something I might expect if told to touch down 1500' LATER and he tried to milk it without adding power.

I sincerely hope the one critical passenger pulls through. Ultimately this just sounds like a moment of stress/panic on the part of the pilot.
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Wondered about that too.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
From the plane's owner (not on board):
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"One last thought.... Who is going to land a PA46 at the mid point of the runway? He should have been given the whole strip. I know the pilot can always say "unable....." Lets try and use this as a learning experience and not lambaste my buddy for what he didn't do. This accident could have very easily turned out much worse than it did."

Brandon Cerecke


Your friend was going to do that. That's where the green dot is. That leaves 3050' of runway available. Is that too little for a PA46? Or is it too little for your friend? If the answer to either question is "Yes", then your friend should have gone around.
 
roncachamp said:
"One last thought.... Who is going to land a PA46 at the mid point of the runway? He should have been given the whole strip. I know the pilot can always say "unable....." Lets try and use this as a learning experience and not lambaste my buddy for what he didn't do. This accident could have very easily turned out much worse than it did."

Brandon Cerecke


Your friend was going to do that. That's where the green dot is. That leaves 3050' of runway available. Is that too little for a PA46? Or is it too little for your friend? If the answer to either question is "Yes", then your friend should have gone around.
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How can you maintain controlled airspace and runway environment when you have no way of identifying aircraft other than by their color? I can't believe that this type of procedure and activity are continued to be used. It's a flawed system and something needs to be done to better handle the traffic. Close the airport for arrivals only on the main runway? It doesn't excuse the fact that my buddy found himself in a power off stall that could have been avoided but measures need to be taken to ensure this type of incursion doesn't happen again at OSH or anywhere for that matter.



And...

After 100,000's of safe landings at OSH over the years, the owner in now wanting the FAA and the EAA to change procedures because his pilot made a bone headed move....:mad2::mad2::mad2:.
 
StinkBug said:
Just thinking about his comment about runway length, it's a 6100' runway. I believe the green dot is 1500' from the orange, how far is the orange from the threshold? Even if it's 1000' that's still a 3600' runway remaining. Should be more than enough for a Malibu judging from what I've seen them do at my home base daily. Seems like a lot of blaming people other than the pilot.
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Runway 9/27 is 6179 feet long. Runway 27 has a displaced threshold, landing distance is 5647 feet. There's 4600 feet available at the orange dot and 3050 feet available at the green dot.
 
N801BH said:
How can you maintain controlled airspace and runway environment when you have no way of identifying aircraft other than by their color? I can't believe that this type of procedure and activity are continued to be used. It's a flawed system and something needs to be done to better handle the traffic. Close the airport for arrivals only on the main runway? It doesn't excuse the fact that my buddy found himself in a power off stall that could have been avoided but measures need to be taken to ensure this type of incursion doesn't happen again at OSH or anywhere for that matter.



And...

After 100,000's of safe landings at OSH over the years, the owner in now wanting the FAA and the EAA to change procedures because his pilot made a bone headed move....:mad2::mad2::mad2:.
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Well he is upset and venting. He just lost his plane and may now be fighting with the insurance company if there was anything irregular with the friend who was borrowing his plane. Someone on the ground got injured. It's going to get ugly and cost money. I think I can understand why he would be lashing out at the event itself where this situation happened.

I personally don't think the rules can be changed to get all those planes down but after spending a few days myself sitting by the runway and watching some of those idiots completely disregarding the instructions from the controllers, they really should have lots of cameras set up recording what is going on and go after the more serious offenders. I was sitting there as the airport opened up again following the clean up of the malibu crash and I was convinced I was going to see another accident. At one point the controller told everyone on final in front of a flight of three warbirds to go around. Everyone. There was a high wing coming in who would not listen. The controller said (paraphrasing) "High wing Cessna over the lake shore go around". Then "Cessna on short final go around". Then "Cessna over the numbers go around". At that point the controller just said "Flight of three go around the cessna in front of you is not listening". On top of that this idiot had been told to land on the green or orange dot and he was landing on the numbers. :mad2:

I'd like to see cameras installed recording everything and then have some action against people like that.
 
narchee said:
Well he is upset and venting. He just lost his plane and may now be fighting with the insurance company if there was anything irregular with the friend who was borrowing his plane. Someone on the ground got injured. It's going to get ugly and cost money. I think I can understand why he would be lashing out at the event itself where this situation happened.

I personally don't think the rules can be changed to get all those planes down but after spending a few days myself sitting by the runway and watching some of those idiots completely disregarding the instructions from the controllers, they really should have lots of cameras set up recording what is going on and go after the more serious offenders. I was sitting there as the airport opened up again following the clean up of the malibu crash and I was convinced I was going to see another accident. At one point the controller told everyone on final in front of a flight of three warbirds to go around. Everyone. There was a high wing coming in who would not listen. The controller said (paraphrasing) "High wing Cessna over the lake shore go around". Then "Cessna on short final go around". Then "Cessna over the numbers go around". At that point the controller just said "Flight of three go around the cessna in front of you is not listening". On top of that this idiot had been told to land on the green or orange dot and he was landing on the numbers. :mad2:

I'd like to see cameras installed recording everything and then have some action against people like that.
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Hmmm..

I Didn't know about someone on the ground getting injured..:dunno::confused:...

The owners vent stated the condition of the pax on his plane but he didn't seem to express concern for the injured ground person ..:rolleyes::rolleyes::confused:
 
N801BH said:
Hmmm..

I Didn't know about someone on the ground getting injured..:dunno::confused:...

The owners vent stated the condition of the pax on his plane but he didn't seem to express concern for the injured ground person ..:rolleyes::rolleyes::confused:
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In one of the articles, there was mention of a first responder being treated for heat exhaustion.
 
Dr. O said:
There are reasons why I have given up going to fly-in's
And guys like this Malibu driver are high on the list
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Lots of fly-ins are a bit harum-skarum (and FUN) but Osh just isn't like that at all. It is challenging, but a well-controlled operation.

I only saw the fireball and smoke, but the guy who taught me formation flight said he was right there and saw the accident. Claimed the accident pilot pulled the aircraft into a 90 degree bank base to final.

Aircraft can get in the way at a big event like this. Last year one did to me. I went around and I'm still here to tell the tale. It really isn't that hard. Miscontrol is the fault of the nut behind the wheel, and nobody else. Not the EAA, Oshkosh, FAA or the other guy on the field. The dude at the controls. I am glad everyone got out ok.
 
steingar said:
I only saw the fireball and smoke, but the guy who taught me formation flight said he was right there and saw the accident. Claimed the accident pilot pulled the aircraft into a 90 degree bank base to final.
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Possible the excess bank resulted from the inside wing dropping during an accelerated stall/spin from a steep turn while low and slow. Nevertheless it seems clear that the pilot was doing some serious yanking and banking while low and slow in a Malibu. Bad deal all around.

All the best wishes for recovery to those involved.
 
This was my second Oshkosh and I'm just amazed at how well ATC handles all the yahoo's flying in. But I'm also very glad that we're all allowed to fly in. If you're aircraft flies and you hold a certificate, you are welcome at OSH. And unfortunately in this case, as in almost all cases, the responsibility lies with the PIC.

One of my friends from here at 84R is one of the controllers at KOSH. I'm looking forward to talking with him when he gets home.

I arrived on Sunday with the Mooney's. We landed 39 Mooney's in 5 minutes flat using both 36L and 36R.
 
Certificate not required, you are welcome to fly in in your ultralight as well.
 
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