IFR Oakland - “Almost” Like the Pros - Pre-Departure Clearance

wayneda40

wayneda40

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A simple out-and-back to Oakland provides a couple pleasant twists… an Arrival Procedure and the chance to pick up a Pre-Departure Clearance… almost like being a Pro Pilot! Welcome aboard! Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
 
Cool! I've read about PDC procedures but never had the chance to try one. I think I'm more inclined to seek one out, now.
 
Larry in TN said:
You left out the last step for being a pro-pilot. You have to complain about the crew meal!
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Larry, I cut out the part where I complained about the peanut butter sandwich I brought (and made the morning of) :). Thanks for watching!
Wayne
 
I don't use PDC because I fly shared aircraft. But digital ATIS, definitely!
 
denverpilot said:
Enjoyed that Wayne. Fun to see the whole system sometimes ain't it?
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It was cool to see the whole system!

midlifeflyer said:
I don't use PDC because I fly shared aircraft. But digital ATIS, definitely!
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Digital ATIS is a big help... however not so much for arriving at a destination, as it seems D-ATIS is not conveyed over ADS-B (at least not in my Stratus/GTX345R configuration).
 
wayneda40 said:
A simple out-and-back to Oakland provides a couple pleasant twists… an Arrival Procedure and the chance to pick up a Pre-Departure Clearance… almost like being a Pro Pilot! Welcome aboard! Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
Click to expand...

Great content and editing!
 
Antoine, thanks for watching!!
 
wayneda40 said:
It was cool to see the whole system!


Digital ATIS is a big help... however not so much for arriving at a destination, as it seems D-ATIS is not conveyed over ADS-B (at least not in my Stratus/GTX345R configuration).
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If you want to, you can use your phone. Don't connect it to ADS-B.
 
D-ATIS sure is nice, if it's available.

I have PDC set up for my airplane but I have yet to be able to use it. Unless you happen to frequent an airport large enough to offer PDC (most of us who fly small GA airplanes don't) it's not a terribly useful feature.
 
Ryan F. said:
D-ATIS sure is nice, if it's available.
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I have it on my Android phone for arrivals via a free app, the unoriginally named "ATIS App" (available for both iOS and Android).

I don't mind the only a few airports and find it's especially useful for arrivals. ATIS broadcasts are usually very easy to copy...except at the airports which have D-ATIS :D Those often have long drawn-out ATIS which include multiple notices for parts of the airport you won't be using at all. Then, you usually come in in the middle and, to be sure you didn't miss anything, sometimes listen to the whole thing again. A minor PITA on the ground for departure but a huge one for arrivals when trying to listen on COM 2 while maintaining communication on COM 1.
 
Ryan F. said:
D-ATIS sure is nice, if it's available.

I have PDC set up for my airplane but I have yet to be able to use it. Unless you happen to frequent an airport large enough to offer PDC (most of us who fly small GA airplanes don't) it's not a terribly useful feature.
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Agreed. Same here... but it was fun to "pretend" on this outing :).
 
I have PDC set up for my Bonanza, but every time I've gone somewhere I could use it, I've been under an Angel Flight callsign and it didn't work.

But it works great in the work plane, and CPDLC works even better! D-ATIS is great too, it gets beamed right to our FMS, and automatically updated every time a new one comes out.
 
Groundpounder said:
I have PDC set up for my Bonanza, but every time I've gone somewhere I could use it, I've been under an Angel Flight callsign and it didn't work.

But it works great in the work plane, and CPDLC works even better! D-ATIS is great too, it gets beamed right to our FMS, and automatically updated every time a new one comes out.
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If your Angel call sign is a variation of your N number and does not change with each mission and only assigned to you, you can register the call sign for PDC.
 
John Collins said:
Mark, use a call sign for PDC flights. Setup the call sign for PDC.
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I didn't realize you could do that. Do you have a link to the process?

edit. Never mind. I found it. This one is a "STOP" for me. Sounds like more bother than copying a clearance.


Q: DO I NEED TO PROGRAM MY FOREFLIGHT CALL SIGN INTO MY AIRCRAFT’S TRANSPONDER?
A: Yes, if you have a Mode S or ADS-B transponder you must program your callsign into your transponder in accordance with AC 120-26M.
 
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John Collins said:
If your Angel call sign is a variation of your N number and does not change with each mission and only assigned to you, you can register the call sign for PDC.
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I was going to ask Foreflight if that was possible, but didn't get around to it. Next time I go to BOS I'll try it.

midlifeflyer said:
I didn't realize you could do that. Do you have a link to the process?

edit. Never mind. I found it. This one is a "STOP" for me. Sounds like more bother than copying a clearance.


Q: DO I NEED TO PROGRAM MY FOREFLIGHT CALL SIGN INTO MY AIRCRAFT’S TRANSPONDER?
A: Yes, if you have a Mode S or ADS-B transponder you must program your callsign into your transponder in accordance with AC 120-26M.
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Depending on your transponder, it may be very easy. I have a GTX345 and it's pretty simple.
 
Groundpounder said:
Depending on your transponder, it may be very easy. I have a GTX345 and it's pretty simple.
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I said "for me" for a reason. I know it's pretty easy to do. But with multiple airplanes I have to remember to put it in for a flight and then remember to remove it after the flight for the next person. Plus, I'm in an area where 95+% of the time my "expected" clearance is the real thing, so the workload saving benefit is minimal. Might be worth it to sign up anyway, hop over to a nearby PDC airport, and give it a try.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I said "for me" for a reason. I know it's pretty easy to do. But with multiple airplanes I have to remember to put it in for a flight and then remember to remove it after the flight for the next person. Plus, I'm in an area where 95+% of the time my "expected" clearance is the real thing, so the workload saving benefit is minimal. Might be worth it to sign up anyway, hop over to a nearby PDC airport, and give it a try.
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Makes sense, and I'm not sure what callsign you'd use anyway, you can't just make something up arbitrarily.

If you could, my callsign would be Sex Machine 5000.
 
Groundpounder said:
Makes sense, and I'm not sure what callsign you'd use anyway, you can't just make something up arbitrarily.

If you could, my callsign would be Sex Machine 5000.
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LOL. In the case of Foreflight, it's a series of simple alphanumeric "FFL" call signs they reserved for the purpose. They assign one to you.

BTW, that registration of a series of call signs for assignment to GA is not that new. FltPlan.com was doing it well before PDC. It's also a way some people and companies hide tail numbers from public tracking (not from ATC; it's legal).
 
Groundpounder said:
I was going to ask Foreflight if that was possible, but didn't get around to it. Next time I go to BOS I'll try it.



Depending on your transponder, it may be very easy. I have a GTX345 and it's pretty simple.
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It is simple, as long as the GTX 345 is configured to accept a pilot entered call sign. Easier still if you have a GTN 650/750 as you can enter the call sign on it and it will update the transponder. I would also suggest if you use call signs to add this to your check list to setup your call sign to match what you filed in the flight plan. Also, as Mark pointed out, with an aircraft that is shared with other pilots, you should set the call sign back to the N number at the completion of your flight before shut down or the next pilot is likely to be unaware a call sign was changed and fly with your call sign in the transponder and if they file an IFR flight plan, there will be a mismatch between the call sign and N number that was filed. That is a technical violation of 91.227 and the ADS-B office may send you a friendly note.
 
midlifeflyer said:
LOL. In the case of Foreflight, it's a series of simple alphanumeric "FFL" call signs they reserved for the purpose. They assign one to you.

BTW, that registration of a series of call signs for assignment to GA is not that new. FltPlan.com was doing it well before PDC. It's also a way some people and companies hide tail numbers from public tracking (not from ATC; it's legal).
Click to expand...

I know about the FFL and DCM callsigns, but I thought you had to pay the to use that service?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Those often have long drawn-out ATIS which include multiple notices for parts of the airport you won't be using at all. Then, you usually come in in the middle and, to be sure you didn't miss anything, sometimes listen to the whole thing again. A minor PITA on the ground for departure but a huge one for arrivals when trying to listen on COM 2 while maintaining communication on COM 1.
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You forgot to mention that COM 1 always barges in just as the useful things in the ATIS come up, so you have to listen all the way through a third time. Here’s how it always sounds when I fly:

“Podunk airport information <Delta 23, turn right heading 120>, winds <right 120, Delta 23>. Sky condition broken at <American 451, descend and maintain niner thousand>. Landing and departing runway <nine thousand, American 451>. Notice to airmen... (these all come through fine for the next 45 minutes). Advise in initial contact you have information <meow>.”
 
The real question I have about pre-departure clearances is why can't the FAA do this as the norm, everywhere? A computer generates the information that is printed on the control strip for the ATC controller, so I cannot comprehend why this clearance (which is already in the computer) cannot be electronically sent to me by text message or email. It would save workload for the controllers, provide relief on radio frequencies, and reduce misunderstanding.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
The real question I have about pre-departure clearances is why can't the FAA do this as the norm, everywhere? A computer generates the information that is printed on the control strip for the ATC controller, so I cannot comprehend why this clearance (which is already in the computer) cannot be electronically sent to me by text message or email. It would save workload for the controllers, provide relief on radio frequencies, and reduce misunderstanding.

- Martin
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Checks and balances. Providing you with the clearance is a relatively trivial concern. Introducing you into the system, uniformly across the entire NAS, isn't so simple.
 
Ryan F. said:
Checks and balances. Providing you with the clearance is a relatively trivial concern. Introducing you into the system, uniformly across the entire NAS, isn't so simple.
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So, make it optional. Doesn't have to be mandatory throughout the NAS. Those who want it get it. Those who don't, don't. I doubt if it's much more complicated than GPS, EFBs, glass PFDs, and onboard weather all happening at about the same time.

Eventually they, and PDC, spread and become standard, while reducing workload in the meantime. FIS-B didn't make Flight Watch disappear in one day. And people still get oral weather briefings.
 
Ryan F. said:
Checks and balances. Providing you with the clearance is a relatively trivial concern. Introducing you into the system, uniformly across the entire NAS, isn't so simple.
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That is just an excuse. There may be technical reasons to not roll it out (e.g. each Tracon really is an effective silo of information, so tapping into all hosts to make it happen would be a significant effort, or cyber security concerns) or it can be a lack of priority.

But pretty much anything else is either a failure of vision and/or an excuse.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
Ryan F. said:
Providing you with the clearance is a relatively trivial concern.
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I can see that side of it, yes. The radio is already there, and the FAA already pays the controller in the tower. So why not just keep doing that?

Ryan F. said:
Introducing you into the system, uniformly across the entire NAS, isn't so simple.
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I have trouble accepting this. Companies everywhere have long been turning to text messages for sending information, from doctors appointments to the wait list in a restaurant to flight status on an airline to, well, you name it. It's cheap and it's simple. If the information is already in a computer, as is the case with an instrument clearance, it cannot be difficult to transmit that information via a text message.

- Martin
 
I'm with Martin and Mark on this... provide PDC at all or most all airports... and it's optional if the pilot wants to pick it up that way or make the call to ClxDel/Ground.
Good discussion!
Wayne
 
What you don't see with the current system is what the controller responsible for handling the PDC does at the tower. The PDC shows up on a screen in the tower if the N number or call sign shows up in a subscriber database. The controller verifies it makes sense and meets the facility requirements. There are conditions that if found, the controller dumps the PDC or they may edit certain aspects of the clearance, like SID and initial route, special instructions. Direct routes will get dumped. Some places if you don't file a SID or the appropriate SID, they get dumped. Only a single PDC may have been filed from a given airport within 12 hours or it gets dumped. Any amendments to the flight plan other than the original flight plan causes it to be dumped. If the reroute is extensive and you can't get cleared as filed, the flight plan gets dumped. If all is OK, they accept the PDC and the automation forwards the controller reviewed and edited PDC clearance to one of several company's that are responsible for delivering the PDC to the pilot. This step can be different for each PDC provider.

Mitre conducted a field test of a text based system out of Manassas Va using text. I haven't heard of what came of that. Pilots got issued a text with the clearance information, but it was not an actual clearance, even though everything that appears in a clearance was there including the squawk code. The pilot still had to call for their clearance on the radio, but there was no need to copy anything if it did not change.
 
If you don't get your PDC clearance or at some point in the future, a text clearance, no big deal, just have to call for it. At a towered airport, ground control would let you know if a PDC was issued and is no longer valid. At a non towered airport, after you get your clearance, you still have to get an IFR release prior to takeoff, so ATC has another shot at the apple. If you set your transponder up and just depart VFR with the intention of activating your departure after you are airborne, you will be in deep doo doo as your target will appear to link up without a release.
 
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John Collins said:
What you don't see with the current system is what the controller responsible for handling the PDC does at the tower. The PDC shows up on a screen in the tower if the N number or call sign shows up in a subscriber database. The controller verifies it makes sense and meets the facility requirements. There are conditions that if found, the controller dumps the PDC or they may edit certain aspects of the clearance, like SID and initial route, special instructions. Direct routes will get dumped. Some places if you don't file a SID or the appropriate SID, they get dumped. Only a single PDC may have been filed from a given airport within 12 hours or it gets dumped. Any amendments to the flight plan other than the original flight plan causes it to be dumped. If the reroute is extensive and you can't get cleared as filed, the flight plan gets dumped. If all is OK, they accept the PDC and the automation forwards the controller reviewed and edited PDC clearance to one of several company's that are responsible for delivering the PDC to the pilot. This step can be different for each PDC provider.

Mitre conducted a field test of a text based system out of Manassas Va using text. I haven't heard of what came of that. Pilots got issued a text with the clearance information, but it was not an actual clearance, even though everything that appears in a clearance was there including the squawk code. The pilot still had to call for their clearance on the radio, but there was no need to copy anything if it did not change.
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I'm setting myself up to try it out but with all the dumping (rather than amending), it really does sound like more trouble than it is worth. From your description the texted/emailed "expected clearance" given regardless of what you may have filed actually sounds more reliable.
 
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