how is this ok?

eman1200

eman1200

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bro do you even lift
3 planes in the pattern, all using rwy 23 as the winds dictate. 2 more inbound setting up for 23. along comes Mr. IFR stating inbound for low approach to rwy 5. everyone is making radio calls, all stating 23. Mr. IFR continues his calls for rwy 5 low approach. I'm on short final and state I'm landing 23 and I guess I'll be on the lookout for the guy using the wrong rwy. he states "it's fine, I'm just doing a low approach". fk you it's fine. it ended up being fine, but if I had to do a go around it would immediately be far from fine.

any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
 
eman1200 said:
any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
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Yeah it's crazy you mention that! I was out in your neck of the woods (same runways even, what are the odds) doing some IFR practice and I was coming in to runway 5 and there were like 6 people using the wrong runway!!! I mean you just talk about one using the wrong runway, imagine all 6!!! What idiots. Anyway I was just doing a low pass so I wouldn't have to deal with them.

:D:p
 
Yeah, I can see that. If you are VFR, you probably don't really know what the IFR guys are doing, and what their nomenclature means. Flying IFR in to an uncontrolled airport, ATC usually keeps you on their frequency until the final approach fix (often about 5 miles from the end of the runway, in this case the "wrong runway") at which time ATC then gives you permission to change frequencies. Once they dump you onto CTAF, then you can start discussing deconfliction with the others in the pattern. When practicing the approach, they will want to practice holding the glideslope and lateral course under the hood. So, they will continue on to the "wrong" runway for a few minutes. But, by the time you are going to be a hazard to each other, the IFR guys can side step, circle to land, or take other evasive actions. So, in the end it shouldn't be a problem. Part of the process of safely flying IFR is negotiating that transition into the VFR environment, and working it out with any traffic in the area. But, I understand why the VFR guys who are likely to be in the dark regarding what the IFR guys are doing would be annoyed when the IFR guys pop onto the frequency like that.
 
PPC1052 said:
Yeah, I can see that. If you are VFR, you probably don't really know what the IFR guys are doing, and what their nomenclature means. Flying IFR in to an uncontrolled airport, ATC usually keeps you on their frequency until the final approach fix (often about 5 miles from the end of the runway, in this case the "wrong runway") at which time ATC then gives you permission to change frequencies. Once they dump you onto CTAF, then you can start discussing deconfliction with the others in the pattern. When practicing the approach, they will want to practice holding the glideslope and lateral course under the hood. So, they will continue on to the "wrong" runway for a few minutes. But, by the time you are going to be a hazard to each other, the IFR guys can side step, circle to land, or take other evasive actions. So, in the end it shouldn't be a problem. Part of the process of safely flying IFR is negotiating that transition into the VFR environment, and working it out with any traffic in the area. But, I understand why the VFR guys who are likely to be in the dark regarding what the IFR guys are doing would be annoyed when the IFR guys pop onto the frequency like that.
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I wasn't in the dark, I knew exactly what he was doing. and it wasn't last minute, he was making his calls the whole time, as was everyone else. quite honestly I was waiting for him to be like "hhmmm, I'm going against traffice, maybe I should reconsider" but he never did. when I'm on short final and I see a landing light coming at me, it's a problem.
 
Stoopid! The ifr dude should have maneuvered and gave way. But.... he probably detected your Joisey accent and just wanted to break your balls a little. :D
 
most Pilots would break off a practice approach,long before the runway environment if everyone is using a different runway. The pilot on the approach ,felt confident he could avoid all the other traffic,I guess.
 
eman1200 said:
3 planes in the pattern, all using rwy 23 as the winds dictate. 2 more inbound setting up for 23. along comes Mr. IFR stating inbound for low approach to rwy 5. everyone is making radio calls, all stating 23. Mr. IFR continues his calls for rwy 5 low approach. I'm on short final and state I'm landing 23 and I guess I'll be on the lookout for the guy using the wrong rwy. he states "it's fine, I'm just doing a low approach". fk you it's fine. it ended up being fine, but if I had to do a go around it would immediately be far from fine.

any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
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Yeah, I’ve run into something like that. It’s pretty common at an airport I use often, SPB. Never had someone just blow it off with just a ‘it’s ok, I’m doing a low approach’ though. They’re usually more detailed about what they are doing and say things like “I’ll be breaking it off a mile out and turning east” or something like that. Next time it happens to you say ‘so am I, I’m practicing go arounds’
 
eman1200 said:
I wasn't in the dark, I knew exactly what he was doing. and it wasn't last minute, he was making his calls the whole time, as was everyone else. quite honestly I was waiting for him to be like "hhmmm, I'm going against traffice, maybe I should reconsider" but he never did. when I'm on short final and I see a landing light coming at me, it's a problem.
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Yeah, I would break off a practice approach before I got too close to other traffic.
 
I usually break off the practice approach at about the 2 mile mark if there is other traffic that will conflict. Unless there is that one guy doing bomber patterns.

I was in the line of 4 C-206s when a C-17 announced a practice approach. They took it down to minimums then made a right turn to depart the area. We never wavered and kept right on landing in the opposite direction.
 
eman1200 said:
3 planes in the pattern, all using rwy 23 as the winds dictate. 2 more inbound setting up for 23. along comes Mr. IFR stating inbound for low approach to rwy 5. everyone is making radio calls, all stating 23. Mr. IFR continues his calls for rwy 5 low approach. I'm on short final and state I'm landing 23 and I guess I'll be on the lookout for the guy using the wrong rwy. he states "it's fine, I'm just doing a low approach". fk you it's fine. it ended up being fine, but if I had to do a go around it would immediately be far from fine.

any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
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What that guy did is not ok, but there is nothing you can do except get out of his way. In this circumstance, the right thing the IFR pilot should have done is to fly the approach to circling minimums and then land on 5.

On the other hand, I once ran into an over zealous VFR pilot who got upset at me for making a straight-in instrument approach. He was on final, and I was behind him, and there was plenty of spacing. After landing, he came up to us and started chastising me that straight-ins were not allowed at this airport. I chose not to argue with him.
 
This happens, at BVS I was doing touch and goes when Just as I lift off 29 an IFR inbound NDB approach to 11 drops out of the clouds. He talking to Whidbey Approach, I'm on airport traffic advisory freq.
 
eman1200 said:
3 planes in the pattern, all using rwy 23 as the winds dictate. 2 more inbound setting up for 23. along comes Mr. IFR stating inbound for low approach to rwy 5. everyone is making radio calls, all stating 23. Mr. IFR continues his calls for rwy 5 low approach. I'm on short final and state I'm landing 23 and I guess I'll be on the lookout for the guy using the wrong rwy. he states "it's fine, I'm just doing a low approach". fk you it's fine. it ended up being fine, but if I had to do a go around it would immediately be far from fine.

any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
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There might be a reason why towers don't do opposite direction approaches
 
Yes, it happens.
It's happened to me.
Military guys in C-130s are the worst offenders around here. They go blasting through the airspace with out so much as a by your leave.
Mea Culpa.
I figure it's cosmic payback for all the times I did it when I was in the military.
But it doesn't make it right. Or safe.
 
eman1200 said:
3 planes in the pattern, all using rwy 23 as the winds dictate. 2 more inbound setting up for 23. along comes Mr. IFR stating inbound for low approach to rwy 5. everyone is making radio calls, all stating 23. Mr. IFR continues his calls for rwy 5 low approach. I'm on short final and state I'm landing 23 and I guess I'll be on the lookout for the guy using the wrong rwy. he states "it's fine, I'm just doing a low approach". fk you it's fine. it ended up being fine, but if I had to do a go around it would immediately be far from fine.

any of you's guys run into this? pretty annoying.
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That guy was a dick. All he had to say was "I'm doing a low approach, I plan on overflying the runway at pattern altitude,( or whatever altitude to avoid you) I will be watching for you, this is just simple manners, I've had IFR practice traffic do the same to me, except they were very clear in where they were and how they were going to not be an issue for traffic in the pattern once they heard there was traffic.
 
PaulS said:
That guy was a dick. All he had to say was "I'm doing a low approach, I plan on overflying the runway at pattern altitude,( or whatever altitude to avoid you) I will be watching for you, this is just simple manners, I've had IFR practice traffic do the same to me, except they were very clear in where they were and how they were going to not be an issue for traffic in the pattern once they heard there was traffic.
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About 50% of the time I’m at pattern altitude after takeoff before I turn crosswind, when I’m in the pattern with other planes. That’d be ugly. Something for me to watch for.
 
mscard88 said:
OK, AC 90-66B just came out recently. Take a looky at paragraph 9.6 & 9.6 .1 specifically.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf
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Copy and pasted below for your convenience.

9.6 Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Traffic. Pilots conducting instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic, and should bear in mind they do not have priority over other VFR traffic. Pilots are reminded that circling approaches require left-hand turns unless the approach procedure explicitly states otherwise. This has been upheld by prior FAA legal interpretations of § 91.126(b).

9.6.1 Non-instrument-rated pilots might not understand radio calls referring to approach waypoints, depicted headings, or missed approach procedures. IFR pilots often indicate that they are on a particular approach, but that may not be enough information for a non-IFR-rated pilot to know your location. It is better to provide specific direction and distance from the airport, as well as the pilot’s intentions upon completion of the approach. For example, instead of saying, “PROCEDURE TURN INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH 36,” it should be “6 MILES SOUTH ... INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH RUNWAY 36, LOW APPROACH ONLY” or “6 MILES SOUTH ... INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH RUNWAY 36, LANDING FULL STOP.”
 
don't get me wrong, if it was just me in the pattern, I would have communicated with him, or extended whatever leg I needed to to work together, as I do with any traffic in the pattern. but with as many people in and approaching the pattern, he didn't leave me OR himself a lot of wiggle room if anything went 'wrong', like a simple go around. on a doosh scale of 1 to 10, I give his actions a solid 7.5
 
I believe the OP put very little effort into this thread, as with a tiny bit of twisting he could have gotten all worked up and made this into a fully developed rant. It's not like the IFR guy said, "Any traffic in the pattern please advise." Without the /[Irritated] or /[Annoyed] tag it's hard to gauge exactly how irritated the OP is or was. Please announce original intentions with information on how to proceed.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Yeah it's crazy you mention that! I was out in your neck of the woods (same runways even, what are the odds) doing some IFR practice and I was coming in to runway 5 and there were like 6 people using the wrong runway!!! I mean you just talk about one using the wrong runway, imagine all 6!!! What idiots. Anyway I was just doing a low pass so I wouldn't have to deal with them.

:D:p
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You see that a lot flying tailwheel.

Starts with one dude who is using the runway with a tailwind and then the other nosedraggers fall into the monkey see monkey do routine.

It gets annoying when you announce you are going to use the other runway and are admonished with ‘runway xx is in use’

Me: ‘sorry buddy, I’m not landing with a tailwind’
 
Fearless Tower said:
You see that a lot flying tailwheel.

Starts with one dude who is using the runway with a tailwind and then the other nosedraggers fall into the monkey see monkey do routine.

It gets annoying when you announce you are going to use the other runway and are admonished with ‘runway xx is in use’

Me: ‘sorry buddy, I’m not landing with a tailwind’
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except that's not what happened. the well spoken, good looking OP stated the correct rwy was in use by everyone based on winds but this guy.
 
frfly172 said:
most Pilots would break off a practice approach,long before the runway environment if everyone is using a different runway. The pilot on the approach ,felt confident he could avoid all the other traffic,I guess.
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True.

We have this a lot here at CPK. Lots of flight training going on and the only ILS is Rey 5. Winds will be favoring 23, but guys will be doing approaches to 5. Not a big deal, because most people realize they are going against the flow and will announce that they will be doing a low approach and remain clear of the pattern traffic.
 
eman1200 said:
except that's not what happened. the well spoken, good looking OP stated the correct rwy was in use by everyone based on winds but this guy.
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Understand, I was basically talking to M2S’s point about 6 in the pattern using the wrong runway.
 
sarangan said:
On the other hand, I once ran into an over zealous VFR pilot who got upset at me for making a straight-in instrument approach. He was on final, and I was behind him, and there was plenty of spacing. After landing, he came up to us and started chastising me that straight-ins were not allowed at this airport. I chose not to argue with him.
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I've had a radio cop tell me that straight in approaches were not allowed at a particular airport. I asked him where it said that in the A/FD. Never heard another word from him. If someone came up and got in my face about it I would have politely told him to bug off.
 
I used to instruct instrument/commercial/CFI at a field where the calm wind/preferred runway was 35, but the ILS was 17 and the ATC name for the airport was not the published name on the VFR charts. Fortunately our trainers all had dual navcoms, and could talk to Center and monitor CTAF at the same time. I had to constantly remind students to name both the fix they were over and its distance and direction from the field with every traffic call on approach. We wound up doing lots of circle to land maneuvers at artificially high altitudes, since the published circling altitude was lower than pattern.
The local pilots were cool with the traffic situation but occasionally we would get a transient self-appointed "expert" who would kick up a fuss. We had one politically connected hotshot who tried to get the school's 141 certificate revoked. He was a congressional staffer for a representative from some midwestern state, but our two senators shut him down right quick.
 
Well... it sucks, but there really isn’t an active runway at uncontrolled fields. (Please don’t give me the untowered bs)
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
About 50% of the time I’m at pattern altitude after takeoff before I turn crosswind, when I’m in the pattern with other planes. That’d be ugly. Something for me to watch for.
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This is one of the reasons my primary instructor gave for turning crosswind 300' below pattern altitude and finish the climb on crosswind before turning downwind. Also one of the reasons he said to turn 45* from runway heading @ 300' below pattern altitude if departing the area.
 
What were the minimums for the runway, and how close was he going to get/did he get? Was he really in conflict with anyone? I've seen this lots of times and not really had a problem with it. It wasn't the IFR guy's fault the ILS wasn't aligned with the prevailing winds.

These guys have got to practice their stuff.
 
It's a pilot controlled airport...his control is as valid as yours. What are you going to do, take away his birthday?

Ok, yeah, he was being unsafe. Not the worst I've seen. I can remember an incident a while back where two pilots wanted to take off at the same time, but they were using opposite ends of the same runway. The winds were like 210@3. One pilot said "that's nothing, use the preferred runway 3". The other said "winds favor 210".

At least they talked to each other and didn't go at the same time.
 
bflynn said:
It's a pilot controlled airport...his control is as valid as yours....
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Wrong. Read the AC mscard* posted.


*somehow spell check converted ‘mscard’ to ‘macarena’ on my iPhone.
 
eman1200 said:
Wrong. Read the AC mscard* posted.


*somehow spell check converted ‘mscard’ to ‘macarena’ on my iPhone.
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Yes, he was unsafe. Give the FSDO his tail number, maybe he'll get a talking to. It was an ADVISORY Circular, right? So maybe he's guilty under 61.113.
 
bflynn said:
Yes, he was unsafe. Give the FSDO his tail number, maybe he'll get a talking to.
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that's not how I roll. I made my point to him on the radio. if he thinks practicing his approach is more important than the safety of 3 (+2) in the pattern, probably not much anyone can do for him. I understand the need for practicing approaches, sht I flew a few with the master approach-practicemeister 'T-I'm on da ILS, b!tches'-Rocket' so I get it.
 
Well, we all agree its not ok, its not safe and it shouldn't be done. Maybe it's illegal, but only just barely.

Be happy he was talking, like I said, it's far from the worst that I've seen. I know a King Air that announces his intention to land by saying "Y'all get out of the way, I'm coming in". That isn't OK either, but what are you going to do about it?
 
bflynn said:
Be happy he was talking, like I said, it's far from the worst that I've seen. I know a King Air that announces his intention to land by saying "Y'all get out of the way, I'm coming in". That isn't OK either, but what are you going to do about it?
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Get a bigger plane like a C130 and insist that instead he should get out of the way. :D
 
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