mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Land and stop on the runway?
how is this ok?
- Thread starter eman1200
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Land and stop on the runway?
Clip4
Final Approach
So if this guy announced straight in LPV 23 you would have been happier knowing when you turn base a plane could be arriving under you?
I run into your situation several times a week at the uncontrolled training airport I fly out of and it is never a problem because the approach is broken off prior to the traffic pattern or the aircraft joins the traffic pattern and lands.
They are called uncontrolled airports for a reason.
eman1200
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bro do you even lift
no, I would have extended my downwind.
Kansas Flyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
A couple of months back I was on the left downwind for 35 at my home field with two others in the pattern and one more crossing midfield to join up when some yahoo called up that he was 2 miles south and was going to enter the right downwind for 17. One of the others and I called out that we were on left downwind for 35, the genius says 'Ok i'm just going to make straight in for 35 then, you don't mind if I cut you off do ya?'. I say 'go for it' because I don't have much choice since he's already on final for all practical purposes and now has the right of way. (I did offer up some choicer words about him but I made sure to take my thumb off the PTT switch first) By this time i'm about to turn base with the genius on a mile final so I extend downwind to give him time to land and clear the runway. I finally turn base and final and am watching and waiting for genius to clear the runway so I and the three behind me can all land. So what does genius do? He leisurely taxis the full length of the runway to the restaurant at the north end and forces myself and two others to go around.
I gave him an 7.5 of 10 on the jackass scale but I keep wondering if that's too lenient.
I gave him an 7.5 of 10 on the jackass scale but I keep wondering if that's too lenient.
Clip4
Final Approach
Did this guy disrupt the traffic flow?
AC 90-66B
9.6 Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Traffic. Pilots conducting instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic, and should bear in mind they do not have priority over other VFR traffic. Pilots are reminded that circling approaches require left-hand turns unless the approach procedure explicitly states otherwise. This has been upheld by prior FAA legal interpretations of § 91.126(b).
9.9 Other Approaches to Land. Pilots should be aware of the other types of approaches to land that may be used at an airport when a pilot indicates they are doing so, which may or may not be initiated from the traffic pattern. The more common types of these include a short approach, low approach, or overhead approach.
AC 90-66B
9.6 Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) Traffic. Pilots conducting instrument approaches should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic, and should bear in mind they do not have priority over other VFR traffic. Pilots are reminded that circling approaches require left-hand turns unless the approach procedure explicitly states otherwise. This has been upheld by prior FAA legal interpretations of § 91.126(b).
9.9 Other Approaches to Land. Pilots should be aware of the other types of approaches to land that may be used at an airport when a pilot indicates they are doing so, which may or may not be initiated from the traffic pattern. The more common types of these include a short approach, low approach, or overhead approach.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
yes he did and this AC has been mentioned several times already.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
I use my plane as my on demand business machine and as such will fly in most weather conditions. When I go out to practice I will do all the approaches at an airport so I know EXACTLY what my plane and automation will do when the chips are on the table. I need to practice a tailwind with a CTL so I can do it safely when my life is on the line.
If that means I have to carefully communicate with guys in the pattern then so be it. Medium to high jerk factor? Maybe. I need to be the one to ensure a conflict doesn’t happen.
I’m on my way to the airport now and will have two tough approaches today while crossing half the country dodging storms. I feel your butthurt, but maybe the guy was doing what he needed to do to make him be safe. Btdt. Flame away.
If that means I have to carefully communicate with guys in the pattern then so be it. Medium to high jerk factor? Maybe. I need to be the one to ensure a conflict doesn’t happen.
I’m on my way to the airport now and will have two tough approaches today while crossing half the country dodging storms. I feel your butthurt, but maybe the guy was doing what he needed to do to make him be safe. Btdt. Flame away.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
the need to practice approaches isn't in question. you pretty much addressed the crux of the issue with your 'jerk factor' rating.
Clip4
Final Approach
So first your story says he was annoying, now he is interrupting the traffic flow. If you thought the situation was unsafe, you should have broken out of the traffic pattern and re-entered when you thought it was safe to do so.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
speaking of annoying...…….
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
So what we have determined is that while pigs might not fly, jackasses certainly do.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
That's why he's the only person I have blocked here. Had to do the "view ignored content" to see if that's why I didn't get what your comment was referring to...
...I shoulda known.
Last edited:
wilkersk
Pattern Altitude
We do simultaneous instrument approaches to opposite runway all the time. If its even marginal VFR, instrument traffic is REQUIRED to "see and avoid". And, IFR traffic is required to not conflict with VFR aircraft established in the pattern. That being said, instrument traffic can still safely fly the final approach segment and then manuever to avoid the traffic pattern. At my home airport, the "localizer" approach minimums are 840' MSL and 3/4 mile. Under those conditions, I will fly the approach down to minimums and then execute the missed. If my timing sucks and I've got an airplane climbing toward me, I'll go missed a few seconds early and sidestep to the opposite side of the crosswind turn. This is perfectly safe and legal. "No Problem!"
tawood
En-Route
Kinda defeats the purpose of blocking! I also only have one person on block (not the same person though), and I know (as now so do you) that if it says "view blocked content" not to click it...trust me, you'll enjoy the site more if you don't.
tawood
En-Route
Being that I'm in the middle (actually nearing the end) of my own IFR training, I've wondered a few times if my instructor and I are getting 7.5s or higher on the "doosh" scale with our wrong-way-to-the-wind practice approaches. Because often I'm under the hood, I can only imagine how "doosh"ie we are being by the angry responses from the others in the pattern...lol.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah me too. A lot more pleasant
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I can't tell you how many times Springfield, Joplin, Fayetteville, Springdale, Rogers, and XNA's towers politely told us to go F ourselves when we'd request a downwind approach at their field when I was in training. Finally my instructor started getting a clue (he was young).
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
No, the IFR pilot should have complied with the AC I listed above. Although not mandatory there's is a Part 91 rule about careless and reckless. This, IMO, would fit. I imagine if a DPE or FAA Ops Inspector was around that airport and heard the IFR pilot he'd write down the tail number.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
So you just ignore the FAA AC? VFR last week and a couple of us in the pattern for 16. King Air calls inbound from the south for 34. Told him two in the pattern for 16, no response. We were climbing out after a touch and went and here he comes for 34. He finally broke off his approach and entered a w-i-d-e downwind for 16. I hope you don't actually do similar Mr Dean.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Passing up exits and not getting off the r/w ASAP is a 10
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I am a very easy person to get along with. I try to accommodate other planes because I figure they are either a student pilot or a one weekend a year fair weather pilot or otherwise a low time inexperienced pilot and I don't want them to do anything they are uncomfortable with or just unable to do.
The problem comes when I meet a lot of VFR only guys that just do not know where they are. I try to accommodate these guys but it is hard for me to help someone that just is not aware where they are in relationship to the airport.
The other problem is I meet a lot of low time or inexperienced pilots that are absolutely positive they are right all the time and everyone else is wrong. You really would not believe how many of those I have met.
Then there is the professional pilot that the reason they are flying a ratty KingAir90 is because they just don't get along with others, and they are going to do what they are doing because they are a professional and no one else is. As they land and pull up to my ambulance and shut down, just to watch that ambulance leave and pull up to my plane.
Not saying any of this is what happened in the OPs example, just my mini rant.
The problem comes when I meet a lot of VFR only guys that just do not know where they are. I try to accommodate these guys but it is hard for me to help someone that just is not aware where they are in relationship to the airport.
The other problem is I meet a lot of low time or inexperienced pilots that are absolutely positive they are right all the time and everyone else is wrong. You really would not believe how many of those I have met.
Then there is the professional pilot that the reason they are flying a ratty KingAir90 is because they just don't get along with others, and they are going to do what they are doing because they are a professional and no one else is. As they land and pull up to my ambulance and shut down, just to watch that ambulance leave and pull up to my plane.
Not saying any of this is what happened in the OPs example, just my mini rant.
Clip4
Final Approach
Call a FSDO, tell them you are going to get a tail number and call them every time you here a plane on an approach approaching the airport in a direction opposite landing traffic and see what they tell you.
Hang 4
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Hang 4
I too just want to be accommodating. As a VFR student who knows exactly where I am relative to the airport, I find it frustrating when someone shoots an approach using IFR fixes in radio announcements on CTAF. I’m at “spongebob” on the RNAV to 31 doesn’t help me have any idea where you are. I’d be happy to extend a downwind or something, but no idea if that’s helping or hurting
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
That's a dick move, but there's no regulation that's being broken if you land behind him while he's still on the runway. I've done it a number of times, and told others to land behind me a few times because of no taxiways whatsoever.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good point. I should have mentioned that I do that. Something along the lines of ''6 southwest doing practice approach for runway 6, circling to land 24''. When I hear someone call a fix, I am pretty sure they are not aware of their position, even though the approach plate will have that distance, if the pilot will just look down and read it....
Kansas Flyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
Interesting, you learn something new every day. I guess i've always just assumed that would be a nono.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
There are two airports I trained at where a back taxi was necessary. There were a number of times that one plane would land, and roll out all the way to the end, the other plane would land and then both would back taxi together, rather than wait for the roll out, turn around and back taxi - which took up even more time. I think once we even did it with 3 airplanes and then we all taxied back together. We also did it on takeoff as well. A lot of people think the runway is one airplane at a time, but there's nothing that says so at uncontrolled fields. Now, I wouldn't go doing this on 1600' strips with a Seneca, but I think they were in the neighborhood of 3800 (I am not bothering to look it up right now) and that was MORE than plenty for us in the trainer birds.
Kansas Flyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
My home field is 5100' so this is definitely possible. We typically back taxi when 17 is in use since the ramp and restaurant is at the north end, but what usually happens when its busy is that a fellow will land and pull off the runway so the next guy or two can land and then everybody back taxis together. When we use 35 I usually land long or keep some power in and stay in ground effect til about midfield before setting down so as not to have a long taxi and so i'm not in the way of other traffic wanting to land.
Nothing wrong with coming in the other way, until there is a conflict. If one is paying as much attention as one should they should realize that potential to conflict early and avoid it. If there are three planes and they are all landing they may be down and parked by the time the approach gets to the missed point. But, if they are doing T&G laps then it's going to be challenging and risky to come in the opposite direction.
I'll shoot approaches in VMC with a safety pilot for practice. Sometimes we need to change the approach to match the traffic; as in different approach to a different runway. Sometimes there is a lot of traffic and we just go somewhere else as fitting in may be challenging. Other times we fit in fine. Since we're typically just doing a low approach only we fit in fine as long as it's not too busy.
I'll shoot approaches in VMC with a safety pilot for practice. Sometimes we need to change the approach to match the traffic; as in different approach to a different runway. Sometimes there is a lot of traffic and we just go somewhere else as fitting in may be challenging. Other times we fit in fine. Since we're typically just doing a low approach only we fit in fine as long as it's not too busy.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
^^^ pretty much this.
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
Definitely non-standard phraseology.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I'll toss a hand-grenade and run...
Think practice approaches are more likely to run into someone making a base-to-final turn or descend into someone (the low wing/high-wing thing)...
Rather than collide head-on... when doing opposite-direction approaches...
... if everybody has their lights on?
(p.s. What do the actual accident reports indicate the numbers truly are?)
Think practice approaches are more likely to run into someone making a base-to-final turn or descend into someone (the low wing/high-wing thing)...
Rather than collide head-on... when doing opposite-direction approaches...
... if everybody has their lights on?
(p.s. What do the actual accident reports indicate the numbers truly are?)
eman1200
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Bro do you even lift
lemme paint the picture for u, @denverpilot
by the way, check out that nice stable approach eman is on!
by the way, check out that nice stable approach eman is on!
denverpilot
Tied Down
I didn’t have any problem imagining the picture.
I asked if you were more likely to hit the guy with his landing lights pointed at you and you at him...
Or hit him as you’re turning base to final and he’s going the same way you are (if the ILS or whatever he was flying was aligned with traffic).
And to provide examples from actual accident reports as to how many of each actually happen...
I know which aircraft is harder to see... and it isn’t the one coming at me, unless he didn’t turn on his freaking lights...
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Look to me like your 8 knots too fast...