How do IFR flights to non-towered airports work?

[jeff0000]

If I'm IFR to land at a non-towered airport, there might be VFR traffic doing pattern work at the airport. Will the TRACON or ARTCC providing services over the non-towered airport switch me over to the CTAF frequency and then I'll have to coordinate with any VFR traffic for sequencing to land on my actual runway?

Also, will the TRACON / ARTCC clear me for a specific approach and runway combination? Or just tell me I can use any instrument or visual approach I want for any runway?

 

[gsengle]

If I'm IFR to land at a non-towered airport, there might be VFR traffic doing pattern work at the airport. Will the TRACON or ARTCC providing services over the non-towered airport switch me over to the CTAF frequency and then I'll have to coordinate with any VFR traffic for sequencing to land on my actual runway?

Also, will the TRACON / ARTCC clear me for a specific approach and runway combination? Or just tell me I can use any instrument or visual approach I want for any runway?

1) yes (don’t forget to cancel IFR in the air or on ground, they should remind you)
2) yes, unless visual.


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[eman1200]

If I'm IFR to land at a non-towered airport, there might be VFR traffic doing pattern work at the airport. Will the TRACON or ARTCC providing services over the non-towered airport switch me over to the CTAF frequency and then I'll have to coordinate with any VFR traffic for sequencing to land on my actual runway?

Also, will the TRACON / ARTCC clear me for a specific approach and runway combination? Or just tell me I can use any instrument or visual approach I want for any runway?

me and @FlySince9 almost got t-boned at a non-towered field because 'supposedly' atc didn't tell the guy to change frequencies so he thought it would be a good idea to just fly straight in with no communication at all. pretty solid.

 

[jeff0000]

1) yes (don’t forget to cancel IFR in the air or on ground, they should remind you)
2) yes, unless visual.


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If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

 

[tsts4]

This is why the workload can be higher for the IFR pilot when the weather is VFR because you’re having to follow both the VFR and IFR rules.

In my experience, when the weather is VFR at an uncontrolled field ATC usually asks me what approach do I want and 99.9% of the time my reply is the VIsual as it’s typically shorter.

 

[gsengle]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

You can’t cancel IFR until you’re VMC. You may be turned over to CTAF before you’re vmc. So you cancel on the ground, DONT FORGET! Unless you want search and rescue coming out.


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[Shawn]

IFR has zero priority over any VFR traffic. None. It is 100% your job to sequence yourself in just like a VFR arrival once you switch to CTAF regardless of your approach and current runway in use by other traffic.

If it is VMC, I just cancel with feeqeunecy change. Not much benefit to remaining on IFR then you don’t have to worry about canceling on the ground

If there is someone else trying to get in or out IFR, they can not do so until you cancel. They have the airspace locked up to other IFR traffic for you until you do so even though it may be slammed with VFR traffic

 

[tsts4]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

Because ATC is reserving that airspace for you. No other IFR departures or arrivals can take place until you cancel.

N 12345 is Cleared for the RNAV, ILS, VOR or whatever runway some number vs cleared for the visual runway some number, frequency change approved. Typically followed by cancellation instructions.

Yes it can be difficult and you just sequence yourself into the pattern just as if you were a VFR arrival.

 

[luvflyin]

If I'm IFR to land at a non-towered airport, there might be VFR traffic doing pattern work at the airport. Will the TRACON or ARTCC providing services over the non-towered airport switch me over to the CTAF frequency and then I'll have to coordinate with any VFR traffic for sequencing to land on my actual runway?

Also, will the TRACON / ARTCC clear me for a specific approach and runway combination? Or just tell me I can use any instrument or visual approach I want for any runway?

They are supposed to but sometimes forget. If they haven't by the time you're getting close to the FAF, prod them. They may just say 'cleared for approach' which lets you do any IAP you want. They may clear you for a specific one. That's up to them depending on traffic. Usually you get cleared for a specific one

 

[midlifeflyer]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

Same for towered and non towered. "Cleared for the ILS runway 24 approach" vs "Cleared fir the visual."

You need to cancel IFR because it needs to be canceled in order to get you out of the system and free the airspace for someone else. The difference between towered and no towered is, at a towered airport, there is someone from ATC who sees you touch down and does it for you.

 

[sarangan]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

ATC usually tells me something like "change to advisory frequency approved, report cancellation in the air, or on the ground at 119.5". I suppose there will be fields without a relay on the ground, in which case you would have to use a telephone.

Instrument approaches with VFR traffic in the pattern is done all the time, but you have to be extra cautious.

 

[luvflyin]

me and @FlySince9 almost got t-boned at a non-towered field because 'supposedly' atc didn't tell the guy to change frequencies so he thought it would be a good idea to just fly straight in with no communication at all. pretty solid.

How'd the momkey get drug into this?

EDIT: disregard, it's your signature, I thought you had pasted that into the post

 

[wayne]

If they have good radar coverage of the area ATC will tell you about the traffic they do see. Remember though, at some point they don't have coverage and that could include planes in the pattern.

The more challenging is departing a non-towered airport in IMC. Most don't have radio access to departure, which is a bummer. Radio communication for departure is much, much better. Some have the evil GCO, grrrrr. Or you can call for an IFR clearance and release. This is why I really like having a towered airport for an IFR flight.

Departing in VMC is easy. Just depart VFR, pick up your IFR flight plan in the air and go.

 

[bobmrg]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

You need to cancel because ATC keeps your flight plan active until you cancel....or sends out the search-and-rescue folks. Cancel in the air as soon as you can do so legally (500 feet below clouds) to release the airspace to others.

ATC will clear you to the airport...which approach you use is up to you.


Bob

 

[jeff0000]

ATC usually tells me something like "change to advisory frequency approved, report cancellation in the air, or on the ground at 119.5". I suppose there will be fields without a relay on the ground, in which case you would have to use a telephone.

Instrument approaches with VFR traffic in the pattern is done all the time, but you have to be extra cautious.

ATC usually tells me something like "change to advisory frequency approved, report cancellation in the air, or on the ground at 119.5". I suppose there will be fields without a relay on the ground, in which case you would have to use a telephone.

Instrument approaches with VFR traffic in the pattern is done all the time, but you have to be extra cautious.

Yeah, that does sound dangerous. There might be 5 planes in the pattern, and they might not be aware of where the IAF / FAF is. Sounds like a nightmare if you ask me.

I'm thinking to myself "what if I'm on an ILS approach" and I need to intercept the localizer at X altitude, which is higher than the traffic pattern, and I also have to ensure lateral separation from pattern work?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, that does sound dangerous. There might be 5 planes in the pattern, and they might not be aware of where the IAF / FAF is. Sounds like a nightmare if you ask me.

LOL. Probably due to lack of experience - you have no mental picture of how it works. It's really no different than flying VFR into a nontowered airport with 5 planes in the pattern. You switch to CTAF in plenty of time, broadcast your location and intentions ("8 mile final," not "FAF inbound"), listen and look for other traffic, and proceed straight in or join the pattern as appropriate based on location and traffic.

 

[luvflyin]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

Heres' some of the stuff about Approach Clearances.

4−8−1. APPROACH CLEARANCE
a. Clear aircraft for “standard” or “special”
instrument approach procedures only.
1. To require an aircraft to execute a particular
instrument approach procedure, specify in the
approach clearance the name of the approach as
published on the approach chart. Where more than
one procedure is published on a single chart and a
specific procedure is to be flown, amend the approach
clearance to specify execution of the specific
approach to be flown. If only one instrument
approach of a particular type is published, the
approach needs not be identified by the runway
reference.
2. An aircraft conducting an ILS or LDA
approach must be advised at the time an approach
clearance is issued when the glideslope is reported out
of service, unless the title of the published approach
procedure allows (for example, ILS or LOC Rwy 05).
3. Standard instrument approach procedures
(SIAP) must begin at an initial approach fix (IAF) or
an intermediate fix (IF) if there is not an IAF.
4. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar
facilities may vector aircraft to the final approach
course in accordance with Paragraph 5-9-1, Vectors
to Final Approach Course, and Paragraph 5-9-2, Final
Approach Course Interception.
5. Where adequate radar coverage exists, radar
facilities may clear an aircraft to any fix 3 NM or more
prior to the FAF, along the final approach course, at
an intercept angle not greater than 30 degrees.
6. Controllers must not disapprove a pilot
request to cold temperature compensate in conjunction
with the issuance of an approach clearance.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED (type) APPROACH.
(To authorize a pilot to execute his/her choice of instrument
approach),
CLEARED APPROACH.
(Where more than one procedure is published on a single
chart and a specific procedure is to be flown),
CLEARED (specific procedure to be flown) APPROACH.
(To authorize a pilot to execute an ILS or an LDA approach
when the glideslope is out of service)
CLEARED (ILS/LDA) APPROACH, GLIDESLOPE
UNUSABLE.
(When the title of the approach procedure contains “or
LOC”)
CLEARED LOCALIZER APPROACH
(When it is necessary to cancel a previously issued
approach clearance)
CANCEL APPROACH CLEARANCE (additional
instructions as necessary)
EXAMPLE−
“Cleared Approach.”
“Cleared (V-O-R/I-L-S/Localizer) Approach.”
“Cleared L-D-A Runway Three-Six Approach.”
“Cleared Localizer Back Course Runway One-Three
Approach.”
“Cleared (GPS/RNAV Z) Runway Two-Two Approach.”
“Cleared BRANCH ONE Arrival and (ILS/RNAV) Runway
One-Three Approach.”
“Cleared I-L-S Runway Three-Six Approach, glideslope
unusable.”
“Cleared S-D-F Approach.”
“Cleared G-L-S Approach.”
NOTE−
1. Clearances authorizing instrument approaches are
issued on the basis that, if visual contact with the ground
is made before the approach is completed, the entire
approach procedure will be followed unless the pilot
receives approval for a contact approach, is cleared for a
visual approach, or cancels their IFR flight plan.
2. Approach clearances are issued based on known traffic.
The receipt of an approach clearance does not relieve the
pilot of his/her responsibility to comply with applicable
Parts of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations and the
notations on instrument approach charts which levy on the
pilot the responsibility to comply with or act on an
instruction; for example, “Straight-in minima not
authorized at night,” “Procedure not authorized when
glideslope/glidepath not used,” “Use of procedure limited
to aircraft authorized to use airport,” or “Procedure not
JO 7110.65X 10/12/17
4−8−2 Approach Clearance Procedures
authorized at night” or Snowflake icon with associated
temperature.

 

[luvflyin]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

Here's some of the stuff on Visual Approaches

7−4−3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL
APPROACH
ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for
visual approaches using the following procedures:
NOTE−
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a
LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by
a facility directive at collocated facilities.
a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request,
a visual approach even when an aircraft is being
vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot
subsequently reports:
1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports
with operating control towers.
2. The airport in sight at airports without a
control tower.
b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other
aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance
to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and
ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR
or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not
available for the destination airport. Upon pilot
request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive
weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Call sign) (control instructions as required) CLEARED
VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);
or
(Call sign) (control instructions as required) CLEARED
VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)
(and if appropriate)
WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU
HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7−2−1, Visual Separation.
c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:
1. The aircraft is number one in the approach
sequence, or
2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft
and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and
is instructed to follow it, or
NOTE−
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.
3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight
but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must
be maintained until visual separation is provided.
d. All aircraft following a heavy, or a small aircraft
following a B757, must be informed of the airplane
manufacturer and/or model.
EXAMPLE−
“Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12
o’clock, six miles.”
or
“Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Seven fifty seven,
12 o’clock, six miles.”
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2−4−21, Description of Aircraft Types.
NOTE−
Visual separation is not authorized when the lead aircraft
is a super.
REFERENCE−
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1.
e. Inform the tower of the aircraft’s position prior
to communications transfer at controlled airports.
ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and
communication transfer points.
f. In addition to the requirements of Para 7−4−2,
Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d,
and e, ensure that the location of the destination
airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report
the destination airport in sight.
g. In those instances where airports are located in
close proximity, also provide the location of the
airport that may cause the confusion.
EXAMPLE−
“Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront
Airport is at 12 o’clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins
Airport is at 1 o’clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins
in sight.”

 

[jeff0000]

LOL. Probably due to lack of experience - you have no mental picture of how it works. It's really no different than flying VFR into a nontowered airport with 5 planes in the pattern. You switch to CTAF in plenty of time, broadcast your location and intentions ("8 mile final," not "FAF inbound"), listen and look for other traffic, and proceed straight in or join the pattern as appropriate based on location and traffic.

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

 

[luvflyin]

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

??? Joining the traffic pattern comes at the end of the Approach, not before. The Center should have given you a frequency change long before you are on final. You should be making position and intentions calls on the CTAF a lot farther out than BLH inbound

 

[Velocity173]

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

You won’t be joining the pattern prior to shooting approach. You’ll be on CTAF long before you hit BLH. Most likely clear you for the approach at 3,500 and then “report procedure turn inbound.” Once inbound, they’ll switch ya over to CTAF.

 

[Zeldman]

me and @FlySince9 almost got t-boned at a non-towered field because 'supposedly' atc didn't tell the guy to change frequencies so he thought it would be a good idea to just fly straight in with no communication at all. pretty solid.

Totally inexcusable. I will have #2 radio tuned to the CTAF and monitoring long before I start the approach so I will have a picture of what is going on. I will be communicating on CTAF announcing my position, 10 miles east of (airport) for straight in on 06 for the approach, long before I am usually given the switch to CTAF by the controller.

Another thing for everyone to think of and I almost got bit by this, if the weather is less than 1000 feet AGL and/or less than 3 miles and the Class E is in effect, do not cancel IFR in the air or then you will be operating in controlled airspace without a clearance.

 

[James331]

I’d also monitor between CTAF and AWOS on comm 2

 

[flyingron]

While not advisable someone flying straight in with no comms shouldn't have resulted in a t-bone unless multiple other errors were occurring. People need to be looking out the window and expecting straight-in arrivals. Similarly, not everybody has (or is using) a radio on the same frequency you think you are.

Not that I'm advocating what happened here, but nothing illegal apparently occurred. If ATC doesn't release you to CTAF before you're in the pattern area, you should prompt them yourself. AND KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN OUTSIDE ONCE IN VMC.

Amusingly, I got a very late handoff from center to tower going into one airport (I think it was Paducah, KY). I apologized but the tower controller came back with "That's why they call them ENROUTE controllers."

 

[midlifeflyer]

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

Where are you in your training? What approach are you looking at?

I'm not asking to be snide. You are obviously trying to learn. I ask those questions because it sounds like you are speculating about something with very little knowledge and imagining what is taking place. Looking at a real approach and discussing it here may bring you down to earth, so to speak

 

[midlifeflyer]

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

Sorry. I saw this after my last post. But I still wonder where you are in your training.

On this approach, you are going to be flying to BLH VOR at 5,000-8,000 msl. Once cleared for the approach, you will turn to a heading of 232 degrees and go no lower than 3,500 until on your way back to BLH after the procedure turn. You will likely be switched by Center to CTAF once outbound (I would ask if I were not) and start communicating with others (with radios) in the pattern, letting them know where you are and that you are X miles from the airport. Just like VFR, they, in turn, will (should) make their position calls. Since you at least have DME, you will be able to make them pretty accurately.

The FAF is 1,600 msl and you begin your final descent to minimums. Once you break out of the clouds, the approach is over (unless or you proceed to the MAP in the clouds for the missed) and you will join the traffic pattern for the runway which makes the most sense based on winds (you made that decision before starting the approach) and traffic if the weather is above VFR minimums. If the ceiling is above 1,000 AGL you and they share the pattern. If the ceiling is below 1,000 AGL, you should be the only one in the air.

 

[NordicDave]

The fuzzy magenta or blue airspace boundaries on the chart indicate controlled airspace down to 700' or 1200' respectively. I flew Saturday into CTAF airport with 700' ceiling. VFR traffic was completely illegal. No way to fly 500' above and 500' below in 700' ceilings.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The fuzzy magenta or blue airspace boundaries on the chart indicate controlled airspace down to 700' or 1200' respectively. I flew Saturday into CTAF airport with 700' ceiling. VFR traffic was completely illegal. No way to fly 500' above and 500' below in 700' ceilings.

Well, if it were Class E at 700, it would be legal for VFR traffic to be at 699'.

But aside from that, this airport itself is Class E to the surface. No VFR permitted without at least a 1,000' ceiling.

 

[cowman]

I've only been instrument rated for a short time and not seen much IMC but it's always been my practice at uncontrolled airports to cancel IFR and go to the CTAF as soon as I've got eyes on the field. In VFR conditions this is how I think most pilots are going to do it- it makes the most sense and is easiest for everyone.

As far as approaches go- yes we're cleared for specific approaches and most of the time they will take us on a straight in to a specific runway. However, some approaches don't even align with a runway, you're suppose to follow it in until you see the field then make whatever maneuver you need to land. Approaches of all types will also have "circling minimums" which basically mean if we're out of the clouds at or above the circling altitude(which I believe is usually around 500' AGL but I might be wrong) we can break off the approach and maneuver to make a sort of pattern entry and land on a completely different runway. Not something most pilots are going to be doing most of the time but you do it a lot during training. The main reason you'd do it is if there's only one available approach to a field but for some reason (like winds) you want to land on a different runway without an approach.

As far as monitoring the CTAF on com2 that's not a bad idea and I might even do that in some scenarios but in most cases I won't and here's why. My com2 is an older radio and it doesn't have standby frequency or flip-flop button and I don't want to be fumbling with radios during an approach so that radio is almost certainly going to be set to the AWOS. I'll have the CTAF on my com1 radio's standby frequency and flip it as soon as practical.

 

[mscard88]

Hey OP, there's a wealth of information on your questions in the AIM.

 

[mscard88]

As far as monitoring the CTAF on com2 that's not a bad idea and I might even do that in some scenarios but in most cases I won't and here's why. My com2 is an older radio and it doesn't have standby frequency or flip-flop button and I don't want to be fumbling with radios during an approach so that radio is almost certainly going to be set to the AWOS. I'll have the CTAF on my com1 radio's standby frequency and flip it as soon as practical.

That's not wise IMO. You get/got the weather earlier so switch to CTAF and monitor what's going on. I'd rather know what's going on with other traffic in the pattern vs listening to the AWOS repeatedly.

 

[Shawn]

I flew Saturday into CTAF airport with 700' ceiling. VFR traffic was completely illegal. No way to fly 500' above and 500' below in 700' ceilings.

Class G is 0-699' which is simply clear of clouds. Your noted separations start in Class E at 700'. While not advisable, it can be legal.

If you are on a circle to land approach with a 600' min...you can indeed cancel airborne and be legal VFR with a 700' ceiling. Again, not advisable but it is possible to still be legal if you understand G/E cloud separation requirements.

 

[cowman]

That's not wise IMO. You get/got the weather earlier so switch to CTAF and monitor what's going on. I'd rather know what's going on with other traffic in the pattern vs listening to the AWOS repeatedly.

I guess it depends on the scenario. In most cases when conditions are VFR I find myself canceling over 10 miles out anyway. I also just don't find it very useful to try to monitor 2 frequencies at once... people tend to talk at the same time and you end up hearing nobody.

Case in point why I often listen to the weather over and over.. "WINDS ..." "UNITED 123 climb FL300" "...knots". EVERY. DAM. TIME.

 

[jeff0000]

Sorry. I saw this after my last post. But I still wonder where you are in your training.

On this approach, you are going to be flying to BLH VOR at 5,000-8,000 msl. Once cleared for the approach, you will turn to a heading of 232 degrees and go no lower than 3,500 until on your way back to BLH after the procedure turn. You will likely be switched by Center to CTAF once outbound (I would ask if I were not) and start communicating with others (with radios) in the pattern, letting them know where you are and that you are X miles from the airport. Just like VFR, they, in turn will (should) make their position calls. Since you at least have DME, you will be able to make them pretty accurately.

The FAF is 1,600 msl and you begin your final descent to minimums. Once you break out of the clouds, the approach is over (nless or you proceed to the MAP in the clouds for the missed) and you will join the traffic pattern for the runway which makes the most sense based on winds (you made that decision before starting the approach) and traffic if the weather is above VFR minimums. If the ceiling is above 1,000 AGL you and they share the pattern. If the ceiling is below 1,000 AGL, you should be the only one in the air.

I'm actually just saving up money for my PPL at this time. I think I want to go fixed wing, but helicopters are very tempting (and expensive) - maybe I should open up another thread for that discussion . I'd like to keep the possibility of a career in aviation open.

I'll be your typical part 61 student - I went through a ton of ground school YouTube videos, and lots of hours learning about ATC and instrument approaches. I'm also trying to get into VATSIM, which is simulated ATC for your flight sim.

Why do you say that if the ceiling is above 1,000' AGL that VFR traffic might be there? I know in VFR you have to be 500' below the ceiling, but don't you also have to be at traffic pattern altitude (which according to airnav.com is 1200' at KBLH). If not, what rule states that you have to be at least 500' above the surface?

Let's say that the traffic pattern altitude was 2000' at this airport. If you're at 1600 at the FAF and you break out of the clouds, I'm assuming you'd have to increase power and go back up to join everyone else?

On the missed, if you don't break out of the clouds at the minimum altitude, do you have to tell ATC you're going missed, and then get permission to shoot the same approach again or a different one? I could foresee a case where you wouldn't be able to reach ATC if the airport was surrounded my mountains.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm actually just saving up money for my PPL at this time. I think I want to go fixed wing, but helicopters are very tempting (and expensive) - maybe I should open up another thread for that discussion . I'd like to keep the possibility of a career in aviation open.

I'll be your typical part 61 student - I went through a ton of ground school YouTube videos, and lots of hours learning about ATC and instrument approaches. I'm also trying to get into VATSIM, which is simulated ATC for your flight sim.

Explains a lot

Why do you say that if the ceiling is above 1,000' AGL that VFR traffic might be there? I know in VFR you have to be 500' below the ceiling, but don't you also have to be at traffic pattern altitude (which according to airnav.com is 1200' at KBLH). If not, what rule states that you have to be at least 500' above the surface?

Not 500' above the surface. 500 feet below the clouds. Basic VFR minimums in 91.155.

The rule is no VFR when the ceiling is below 1,000' at an airport which is controlled airspace to the surface (also 91.155). So a VFR pilot operating when the ceiling is lower than that is operating in violation of the rules. Traffic pattern altitudes are funny. They fall into a small netherworld that is not quite regulatory. An instrument pilot should be prepared to find VFR pilots operating below a 700' ceiling at a Class G to 700 AGL or 500' below the clouds at a Class E surface area. The only regulation which talks about traffic pattern altitudes is 91.129. If you take a look, you will see it is a rule specifying a 1,500 AGL pattern altitude for "large and turbine" aircraft at Class D airports, and does not apply when a lower altitude is "required by the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria".

Let's say that the traffic pattern altitude was 2000' at this airport. If you're at 1600 at the FAF and you break out of the clouds, I'm assuming you'd have to increase power and go back up to join everyone else?

If you break out at 1600, you can't go up to 2,000 - you'd be back in the clouds. I would not expect to find VFR-only pilots there. If you break out above the normal traffic pattern, fly the normal traffic pattern altitude. If you break out below it you don't go back up. The goal is to land, after all, isn't it? (If we're a VFR day, I would break off the approach at pattern altitude.

On the missed, if you don't break out of the clouds at the minimum altitude, do you have to tell ATC you're going missed, and then get permission to shoot the same approach again or a different one? I could foresee a case where you wouldn't be able to reach ATC if the airport was surrounded my mountains.

Being "cleared for the approach" under IFR includes being cleared for the missed. Once on the missed, you will be able to contact ATC, although the terrain may mean you'll talk to them higher rather than lower. Notice on this one, the missed approach brings you all the way back up to 4600 msl.

 

[eman1200]

While not advisable someone flying straight in with no comms shouldn't have resulted in a t-bone unless multiple other errors were occurring. People need to be looking out the window and expecting straight-in arrivals. Similarly, not everybody has (or is using) a radio on the same frequency you think you are.

Not that I'm advocating what happened here, but nothing illegal apparently occurred. If ATC doesn't release you to CTAF before you're in the pattern area, you should prompt them yourself...

was this regarding what I said? if so then I don't understand what you're saying. so we shouldn't have been t-boned, which we weren't, because we should have been looking out the window, which we were, which is what prevented us from being t-boned. I don't understand your point. and no one said anything illegal happened.

 

[FlySince9]

was this regarding what I said? if so then I don't understand what you're saying. so we shouldn't have been t-boned, which we weren't, because we should have been looking out the window, which we were, which is what prevented us from being t-boned. I don't understand your point. and no one said anything illegal happened.

YOU TELL EM, @eman1200 ! ....

 

[eman1200]

YOU TELL EM, @eman1200 ! ....

honestly it's a headscratcher of a comment. the situation DID happen, and for someone to suggest the reason it shouldn't happen is because you should be looking outside is just not a smart comment. looking outside is a given, and quite honestly I wonder how much worse it could have been if we were in one of those silly high wing things. to me it's a procedural breakdown. it was, as you know, a crystal clear day, the pilot should have been handed off when he had the field in site OR he should have told them when he had the field in site, giving him enough time to hear what's going on at the always busy airport and god forbid maybe make an effin radio call. THAT's the issue, not 'you should have seen him so it should never happen to anyone anywhere'.

 

[FlySince9]

honestly it's a headscratcher of a comment. the situation DID happen, and for someone to suggest the reason it shouldn't happen is because you should be looking outside is just not a smart comment. looking outside is a given, and quite honestly I wonder how much worse it could have been if we were in one of those silly high wing things. to me it's a procedural breakdown. it was, as you know, a crystal clear day, the pilot should have been handed off when he had the field in site OR he should have told them when he had the field in site, giving him enough time to hear what's going on at the always busy airport and god forbid maybe make an effin radio call. THAT's the issue, not 'you should have seen him so it should never happen to anyone anywhere'.

A high-wing thingy might have been better in this case since he was slightly below us... As I recall, if we hadn't seen him prior to your turn to final, we WOULDN'T have seen him under the raised wing... It was close, I'll tell you that much...

 

[eman1200]

A high-wing thingy might have been better in this case since he was slightly below us... As I recall, if we hadn't seen him prior to your turn to final, we WOULDN'T have seen him under the raised wing... It was close, I'll tell you that much...

oh yeah, that's what I meant...…….