Hold How

luvflyin

luvflyin

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The Hold isn’t charted. You can’t get ahold of ATC to ask. How would you hold?

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a few thoughts come to mind, the first is
  1. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two‐way radio communications failure. During two‐way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR section 91.3(b).
The second is if you’re in VFR conditions, land VFR ASAP. If you’re in IFR conditions, do that pilot stuff, Mav and use your best judgement to meet the spirit of the guidance in AIM 6-4.

ETA: that assumes two-way radio comms failure, so if you haven’t gone back to the last controller, asked for radio relay, or given the controller a number to call, you need to do all that first.

For argument’s sake, without knowing where you are now, what your clearance (& limit) is, your ETA and the current time, the real answer is the world is your oyster if you exercise emergency authorities, just keep in mind your decision(s) may get some additional scrutiny after the fact.
 
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ColinD said:
I'd fly runway heading to 3,000 then track the 145 radial to OCN and start making right turns and timing 1-minute legs.
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This. The MAP is pretty clear on where to go and how to get there. In the absence of other instructions, you'd just hold on the OCN R-145 in a standard hold.
 
This one comes up every once in a while. It was asked on the Opposing Bases podcast way back in 2020, and I sent them the following answer (slightly edited for content) which was read on Episode 125.
This is a great question, with unfortunately a less-than perfect answer that takes a bit of a winding road to get to. This will be a long one, with numerous official references.

A little background - for every approach or departure chart, there is an underlying "source" document - this is FAA Form 8260-3 or -5 for approaches. This form is what is produced by the TERPS elves and spells out all the details on how the procedure is to be charted by the charting agencies (or others, for example, Jeppesen). These forms are available to the public at the FAA's Instrument Flight Procedures Information Gateway at:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/

(search for the airport, then the "IFP Documents" tab).

These do take a little practice to read (an understatement), as pilots are not the intended audience. However, they do often answer questions and offer insights into questions like these. For CRQ, the ILS form says the following for the missed approach holding pattern: "Hold West, Right Turns, 090 inbound (do not chart)".

So it's not charted because the procedure designer put "do not chart" on the form. But why?

There is typically no reason for us to put "Do Not Chart" on the form unless told to by some other agency, usually Air Traffic.

So, further research is needed.

Each fix and holding pattern in the U.S. has its own supporting documentation, because we do like paperwork. These are on FAA Form 8260-2, which, conveniently are publicly available at:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/radio_fix_holding_8260/

The form for the Oceanside VORTAC has this note: "Prior coordination required with controlling agency for holding over R-2503A, B and D".

The combination of the two gives us a good picture of the answer. If you look at the sectional or low enroute chart, you can see that OCN VORTAC is right at the edge of these restricted areas. So holding (in any direction) definitely extends into the R-area. Therefore, ATC requested it not be charted, presumably due to this situation, and I'm sure they intend to give radar vectors anyway.

I said this is a less-than perfect answer, and it is. The listener asks about lost comms. Since there is no way for the pilot to know the holding pattern direction, the only reasonable solution is to follow the standard guidance of holding on the inbound radial, right turns, 1-minute legs. And that will certainly be safe, there is no significant terrain to worry about here at the 3000 foot missed approach altitude.

This holding pattern does happen to be depicted on the VOR-A procedure, but there it is a hold-in-lieu-of-procedure-turn. Presumably if ATC is going to clear an aircraft for the VOR-A, they would have already had to effect coordination with the restricted area controlling agency.
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Here’s a scenario -

What would you do if you lost communications right after being cleared for the approach, had to go missed and the forecasted weather did not require an alternate to be filed, but unexpectedly, the airport and surrounding coast line became IFR?

You have no filed alternate. Your clearance limit was to CRQ and now you’re holding at OCN unable to contact ATC. Now what?
 
RyanB said:
Here’s a scenario -

What would you do if you lost communications right after being cleared for the approach, had to go missed and the forecasted weather did not require an alternate to be filed, but unexpectedly, the airport and surrounding coast line became IFR?

You have no filed alternate. Your clearance limit was to CRQ and now you’re holding at OCN unable to contact ATC. Now what?
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Squawk 7600 and head towards better weather.
 
RyanB said:
Here’s a scenario -

What would you do if you lost communications right after being cleared for the approach, had to go missed and the forecasted weather did not require an alternate to be filed, but unexpectedly, the airport and surrounding coast line became IFR?

You have no filed alternate. Your clearance limit was to CRQ and now you’re holding at OCN unable to contact ATC. Now what?
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Easy one. I would do exactly the same as I would do if I did file an alternate. Go wherever I decided at the time was my best option.
 
luvflyin said:
The Hold isn’t charted. You can’t get ahold of ATC to ask. How would you hold?
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Pretty much what the AIM says when it's not charted and there are no holding instructions given. In this case, standard direct entry hold on the 145° radial.
 
RyanB said:
Here’s a scenario -

What would you do if you lost communications right after being cleared for the approach, had to go missed and the forecasted weather did not require an alternate to be filed, but unexpectedly, the airport and surrounding coast line became IFR?

You have no filed alternate. Your clearance limit was to CRQ and now you’re holding at OCN unable to contact ATC. Now what?
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Enter the MAP hold, ensure the autopilot is properly set up to keep me there, and then troubleshoot the radios, including trying Guard and other approach/center frequencies. If no joy, pull out my handheld radio and use that. Failing that, consider contacting ATC via cell-phone if possible. Failing that, exercise my PIC authority, squawk 7600, and proceed to VFR weather (if within range) or choose an airport with an approach/weather that seems viable, making calls in the blind. Happy to discuss with the authorities at zero knots and one G over a cup of coffee. :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Pretty much what the AIM says when it's not charted and there are no holding instructions given. In this case, standard direct entry hold on the 145° radial.
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That’s what I was thinking would be the thing to do. There is a holding pattern designated though. Question is, why don’t they want it Charted?

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AvNavCom said:
Enter the MAP hold, ensure the autopilot is properly set up to keep me there, and then troubleshoot the radios, including trying Guard and other approach/center frequencies. If no joy, pull out my handheld radio and use that. Failing that, consider contacting ATC via cell-phone if possible. Failing that, exercise my PIC authority, squawk 7600, and proceed to VFR weather (if within range) or choose an airport with an approach/weather that seems viable, making calls in the blind. Happy to discuss with the authorities at zero knots and one G over a cup of coffee. :D
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But what is the MAP hold? It’s not Charted.
 
luvflyin said:
That’s what I was thinking would be the thing to do. There is a holding pattern designated though. Question is, why don’t they want it Charted?
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That's a good question. When I see something not charted, I usually think in terms of either chart clutter or ATC request. Maybe @RussR has an answer.

Actually, I could have answered "hold west on the 090 inbound" since Garmin Pilot charts it on their SmartCharts.
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To add another little wrinkle, the missed approach hold from the forms IS coded into the FMS with the 090 inbound. I'm sure anybody could easily have found this out by bringing up the procedure in one of the Garmin trainers, but no, I did it the hard way and looked up the CIFP (Coded Instrument Flight Procedure) file. Here is the actual ARINC coding.

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For anybody who is really, really, interested, that highlighted bit has the pertinent parts of "OCN" for the VORTAC, HM is the leg type for a missed approach hold, 0900 is the inbound course, T010 is the time (one-minute legs), + means at or above, and 03000 is the altitude.
 
Dang it Mark! Simulposted again. Of course now I realized I could have looked it up the same way you did as well. But I went the hard way.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's a good question. When I see something not charted, I usually think in terms of either chart clutter or ATC request. Maybe @RussR has an answer.
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The only real answer I have is what I posted in Post #8. It was by ATC request. No additional details, but I surmise due to the restricted areas.
 
RussR said:
The only real answer I have is what I posted in Post #8. It was by ATC request. No additional details, but I surmise due to the restricted areas.
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While we’re here, shouldn’t this Approach have an Alternate Missed Approach?
 
Switch to the GPS approach.

Not being snarky. The chances that all the needed VORs are working are slim.
 
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luvflyin said:
While we’re here, shouldn’t this Approach have an Alternate Missed Approach?
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Yes, but often it's not possible due to 1) lack of existing VORs to go to, 2) unusable portions of existing nearby VORs, 3) interference with other air traffic (likely here), or 4) practical realities (meaning a missed approach is going to get radar vectors regardless of what's published).

In a situation like this one, if the OCN VOR is out of service, a NOTAM will be sent requiring GPS to be used on this procedure to fly the missed. That doesn't seem likely to have any practical impact.
 
luvflyin said:
While we’re here, shouldn’t this Approach have an Alternate Missed Approach?
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WAG: If OCN goes out, there isn't another good available ground based navaid to use. MZB is almost 30 NM south. Seal Beach 45 NM north. And both in some pretty busy airspace.

@RussR. Oops. Did it again.
 
RyanB said:
And you hope there is better weather within 45 minutes (or hopefully more if you planned wisely).

Things to ask your students. :)
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There's a runway at the bottom of every ILS, so slow to landing speed and fly the glideslope like your life depends on it, I guess. :hairraise:

King Arthur himself wouldn't be able to remove the seat cushion.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's a good question. When I see something not charted, I usually think in terms of either chart clutter or ATC request. Maybe @RussR has an answer.

Actually, I could have answered "hold west on the 090 inbound" since Garmin Pilot charts it on their SmartCharts.
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Thanks you beat me to it, the SmartCharts that is....:)
 
ColinD said:
I'd fly runway heading to 3,000 then track the 145 radial to OCN and start making right turns and timing 1-minute legs.
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If a missed approach procedure, wouldn't it be the 325 radial?
 
RyanB said:
What are you going to do if your autopilot fails?
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The same thing I would have done a month ago before I got the autopilot installed: fly the airplane! Same stuff, just less efficient due to the need for increased vigilance on the instruments.
 
luvflyin said:
But what is the MAP hold? It’s not Charted.
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The above discussion aside (where it turns out that it actually is charted but hidden, and a hold direction that could not be inferred by a pilot from the plate when used in anger, for reasons that make no sense to me), the MAP says to fly inbound on the OCN R145 at 3000 feet and hold. In the absence of anything on the chart to suggest otherwise or instructions to the contrary from ATC, a standard hold would be inbound on the radial, right-hand turns, and one-minute legs. Happy to be corrected on this, but I think that's the entire purpose of having "standard hold" rules because not every hold will be drawn on a plate/chart. In this case, it turns out there's some underlying goofiness, but I'd enter that standard hold on the OCN R145 and would happily defend that to any FSDO inquiry.

Are you taking the position that any hold which isn't graphically shown on a plate is undefined? Not sure I'm understanding.
 
AvNavCom said:
The above discussion aside (where it turns out that it actually is charted but hidden, and a hold direction that could not be inferred by a pilot from the plate when used in anger, for reasons that make no sense to me), the MAP says to fly inbound on the OCN R145 at 3000 feet and hold. In the absence of anything on the chart to suggest otherwise or instructions to the contrary from ATC, a standard hold would be inbound on the radial, right-hand turns, and one-minute legs. Happy to be corrected on this, but I think that's the entire purpose of having "standard hold" rules because not every hold will be drawn on a plate/chart. In this case, it turns out there's some underlying goofiness, but I'd enter that standard hold on the OCN R145 and would happily defend that to any FSDO inquiry.

Are you taking the position that any hold which isn't graphically shown on a plate is undefined? Not sure I'm understanding.
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No. I just said it’s not charted.
 
AvNavCom said:
The above discussion aside (where it turns out that it actually is charted but hidden, and a hold direction that could not be inferred by a pilot from the plate when used in anger, for reasons that make no sense to me), the MAP says to fly inbound on the OCN R145 at 3000 feet and hold. In the absence of anything on the chart to suggest otherwise or instructions to the contrary from ATC, a standard hold would be inbound on the radial, right-hand turns, and one-minute legs. Happy to be corrected on this, but I think that's the entire purpose of having "standard hold" rules because not every hold will be drawn on a plate/chart. In this case, it turns out there's some underlying goofiness, but I'd enter that standard hold on the OCN R145 and would happily defend that to any FSDO inquiry.

Are you taking the position that any hold which isn't graphically shown on a plate is undefined? Not sure I'm understandin
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With Garmin Pilot in looking at the written instructions, your holding the the 145 (325) radial, right turns, one minute leg.. direct entry - depicted in blue...

Garmin pilot agrees with that, however depicts a parallel entry in the instructions that would have you holding on the 090 radial as it is published.. How does one reconcile that?


Screenshot 2026-06-29 164047.jpg
 
luvflyin said:
No. I just said it’s not charted.
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Fair enough, that's true. Not looking for an argument at all. It's my understanding that in the absence of clear direction otherwise on the chart, a pilot would reasonably assume a direct entry to the R145 hold with righthand turns and 1 minute legs. I'm unclear how a pilot would be expected to know the required hold from just looking at a standard/Jepp plate. Where did you find the procedure description you posted above? I haven't seen that before.

Ventucky Red said:
With Garmin Pilot in looking at the written instructions, your holding the the 145 (325) radial, right turns, one minute leg.. direct entry - depicted in blue...

Garmin pilot agrees with that, however depicts a parallel entry in the instructions that would have you holding on the 090 radial as it is published.. How does one reconcile that?
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Indeed! This is a weird one, and if you're flying using the SmartChart, there is indeed a hold on the 090 radial and a parallel entry would make sense. I can only assume that Garmin's systems are digging into the system to show the procedure and merrily ignoring the "do not chart" request. One more reason to like SmartCharts!
 
Ventucky Red said:
Garmin pilot agrees with that, however depicts a parallel entry in the instructions that would have you holding on the 090 radial as it is published.. How does one reconcile that?
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Because that’s actually the missed hold as described in the 8260 - the regulatory document that defines the approach. See @luvflyin’s posting if the document earlier. The R145 is just how you get to the holding fix. It doesn’t define the hold.
 
AvNavCom said:
I can only assume that Garmin's systems are digging into the system to show the procedure
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That’s exactly what they are doing. Creating a chart based on the regulatory source document , not the FAA -specific charting instructions.

Anyone have the Jepp for this procedure? I wouldn’t be surprised to see the hold charted there.
 
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AvNavCom said:
Fair enough, that's true. Not looking for an argument at all. It's my understanding that in the absence of clear direction otherwise on the chart, a pilot would reasonably assume a direct entry to the R145 hold with righthand turns and 1 minute legs. I'm unclear how a pilot would be expected to know the required hold from just looking at a standard/Jepp plate. Where did you find the procedure description you posted above? I haven't seen that before.


Indeed! This is a weird one, and if you're flying using the SmartChart, there is indeed a hold on the 090 radial and a parallel entry would make sense. I can only assume that Garmin's systems are digging into the system to show the procedure and merrily ignoring the "do not chart" request. One more reason to like SmartCharts!
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I’m not looking to argue either. Holding in a standard pattern on the radial you arrive at the Fix on were my thoughts also.
 
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