Heli crash NYC

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by 1anG, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Maxnr

    Maxnr Pre-Flight

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    If you forget the strobes in night IMC, it will mostly be a large, large irritation. If,however you forget to douse an old rotating beacon, the red spot sweeping the cloud cannot be resisted. I don't care if you're Lindberg himself, you WILL chase that red spot. You will not forget it there after.
     
  2. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    Carrying passengers for hire at night without an IR? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's illegal.
     
  3. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How is that illegal according to the regulations?
     
  4. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    For fixed-wing it is. I don't see anything about it for rotorcraft, so perhaps I'm wrong.
     
  5. JScarry

    JScarry Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Night and over 50 mile operations are perfectly legal for commercial helicopters but not airplanes.

    §61.133 Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.
    (b) Limitations. (1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, “The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited.” The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in §61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.
     
  6. NotarPilot

    NotarPilot Filing Flight Plan

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    The media are generally run by idiots. They love a good hero story and a pilot who dies while not taking out a slew of people on the ground are generally going to be hailed as a hero regardless of the decisions that got them into their predicament.

    Even in that weather I don’t necessarily see a problem. Weather mínimums in class G airspace for helicopters are 1/2 mile and clear of clouds during the day. I have flown in similar weather numerous times in a less capable VFR only helicopter without issue or anxiety. It boils down to pilot ability and knowing where you are. I think he could have been fine there in that weather had he stayed over the water. Once you start throwing tall buildings that extend into the clouds you start to have problems.

    Helicopter weather mínimums in class G are less than fixed wing as stated above.

    I don’t know why the FAA would say this. Legally he looked okay per 91 minimums, unless they’re referring to the TFR.

    As a result of all those accidents helicopter EMS pilots must have a IR regardless if they fly IFR now.
     
  7. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    I think his point was...there's a label pertaining to entering clouds on a VFR aircraft.
     
  8. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That placard is required as part of the strobe installaion.
     
  9. Turbo-Arrow-Driver

    Turbo-Arrow-Driver Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm looking at the helicopter route chart for NYC. It's a pretty busy chart. Not being familiar, the airspace over Manhattan and Central Park appears to be Class B to surface, while there is Class G over East River below 1100 feet. But there's a helicopter route over Central Park...that's probably not class B...? I'm confused. Can someone clarify?
     
  10. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    He was in and out of the clouds, no way was he legal, he shouldn't have been flying.
     
  11. SToL

    SToL Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You're right. He should't have been flying because he failed as a pilot. However, as NotarPilot said, the weather was totally flyable and completely legal per FARS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 10:05 AM
  12. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, I don’t know about legal. Based on where he went in, that looks like he’s in LGA’s class B (SFC-70). All the reports in the area are for 1-2 miles viz. Not to mention he violated the TFR.

    I’ve done far worse weather in the desert where you’ve got nothing to hit and 2 IFR pilots in an IFR aircraft. But with steel and cement pushing into the clouds with no instrument ticket? Nope, and anyone who says that sort of ADM is safe is off their rocker.
     
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  13. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wrong guy.

    Tim McCormack
     
  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Here’s the thing when it comes to VFR pilots getting in over their head in IMC, they usually panic. Now, I don’t know of his experience and yes, there are those who can do it safely, but in my experience, most freeze up when it hits the fan. I’ve read several fatal NTSB reports in the helo community (especially EMS) where the comments on the deceased pilot were something like “Im surprised he was out in that weather. He was a weather chicken.” That’s what worries me. I’d rather fly with someone who pushes weather mins because they have confidence in their abilities vs someone who’s overly cautious and finds themselves way in over their head. The later is truly an accident waiting to happen.
     
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  15. SToL

    SToL Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It's easy to find out if it's legal or not. What do the far's say for Helicopter SVFR?
    1. ATC Clearance
    2. Clear of clouds

    Whether or not he can get a SVFR there is up to the controllers and whether or not there is other IFR aircraft in the control area.

    None of that gives him permission to climb up into the clouds and fly around with steel and cement. He could have easily stayed below the layer, where vis was reported and appeared to be up to 2 miles.
     
  16. Mike I

    Mike I Line Up and Wait

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    He wasn’t in Class G, he was venturing between Class E in the SFRA and Class B.
     
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Gotcha, I miss understood. I was just commenting on the actual outcome. Since 1) he never received a SVFR from LGA and 2) obviously flew into the clouds, he wasn’t legal.
     
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  18. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think one thing that promotes panic is the "178 Seconds to Live" video that is on the Web. No mention is made of the fact that none of the test subjects had the instrument flying instruction that later became a required part of private-pilot training. (They were also flying partial-panel in an unfamiliar high-performance airplane.)

    The "you're GOING to die" meme promotes resignation, which is an FAA-identified hazardous attitude.
     
  19. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    During REFORGER '87, I was lucky enough to be stuck in Celle as a liaison for the 1 CAV. The Immelman Kaserne (Heeresflugplatz Celle) was just down the road from our luxurious accommodations in an industrial park warehouse. I sneaked away in my M1080 truck one day and bluffed my way into the airfield.

    Crazy Charlie was there, working on "his" BO-105 with the big German flag painted on the side... I spoke to him in English for a few minutes while they were on a smoke break. He was a very polite, reserved guy, not at all the crazy daredevil people thought of him. It was a real honor to meet him in person.
     
  20. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    I watched the TV coverage. The local reporters went on and on and on about how frightening it was and how visions of 9/11 were on "everyone's" minds. No mention of any known facts.

    Images of closed streets, Police standing around and fire trucks went on for hours. I turned it off after two minutes.
     
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  21. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    The population of helicopter pilots is a small minority. The number of instrument rated helicopter pilots is smaller. The number of helicopter pilots actually flying IFR in IMC in a certified helicopter is a tiny sub-group of those pilots.

    The certification requirements for carrying passengers in IMC under part 135 for both the helicopter and aircrew make the overall population of commercial helicopter pilots VFR only.

    Once upon a time until recently, you could hold a ATP RH with VFR only.

    As stated previously, the cost of equipping AND certifying a helicopter for IMC for hire with passengers has always been the reason for VFR only ops...
     
  22. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    My favorite Charly Z video:
     
  23. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

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    At the time an igloo cooler was something you never saw in Europe...Charlie had seen one of ours and we promised to get him one...really nice guy...and loved American's, a lowly Hauptman in the Army that had his own personal helicopter curtesy of the factory...he did most of the maintenance on it himself and was a skilled mechanic. Big loss when he was killed for those who had met him...he was a national treasure...
     
  24. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Won't link the video here, but will say he went out in a blaze of glory, literally.
     
  25. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    To finish this side trip on the OP, we would watch the video above and the one you reference every mx recurrent, but more out of respect. Never met CZ directly, but flew with pilots that had and enjoyed a number of flights that he would have approved.
     
  26. Bob Vila

    Bob Vila Filing Flight Plan

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    I was in the building across the street from the one he crashed into. The fire warden came on the PA system and announced the crash. I looked out the window towards the top of the building he crashed into and it was shrouded in fog. Couldn't see the top of the building. There was dark smoke mixed with the fog but nothing visible. The conditions in NYC where the crash occurred were worse than reported at LGA and it was raining heavily.

    If you look at his FAA records it also shows he was flying with a special issue medical. Apparently he had some condition that required a special issuance. Whether this had any affect or cause we will never know.

    I too get pretty ****ed off when the press and others claim he was hero and flew his aircraft into a building to save others!! Bull!! After watching the video and seeing the conditions at the crash site my guess is he lost it and it was just sheer luck that he crashed into the roof and not the street. At that time of day the streets in that part of Manhattan are packed with tourists and cars. It would have been a disaster.

    Shortly after our building was evacuated and both 6th and 7th avenues were closed and the building exits on 52nd street were locked so we could only evacuate out one side of the building.
     
  27. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    Holy mackerel!!! Now that’s some skill and ballz!!!i never heard of this guy. Guess I’ll be watching vids all night. Where does a guy learn to fly like that!
     
  28. SToL

    SToL Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Reports at the time were pretty much the same:

    Data at: 1830 UTC 10 Jun 2019


    KEWR 101820Z 03006KT 1 3/4SM R04R/4500VP6000FT -RA BR OVC004 19/18 A3000 RMK AO2 CIG 003V006 P0011 T01890183 $

    KTEB 101806Z 06007KT 2 1/2SM R06/6000VP6000FT -RA BR OVC005 19/17 A3001 RMK AO2 P0004 T01890172

    KJFK 101827Z 10016G24KT 1SM R04R/2400V5000FT +RA BR OVC005 19/19 A3001 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 1/2 P0007 T01940194

    KLGA 101811Z 04011KT 1/2SM R04/2800VP6000FT RA FG OVC005 17/16 A3002 RMK AO2 P0004 T01720161

    KNYC 101828Z AUTO 06008KT 1SM +RA BR VV004 18/17 A3004 RMK AO2 P0020 T01780172 $
     
  29. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    The internet (Wiki) says that as of October 2018, Zimmerman is enjoying retirement near Celle, and that the pilot in the referenced video was one Siegfried Hoffmann.
     
  30. Turbo-Arrow-Driver

    Turbo-Arrow-Driver Filing Flight Plan

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    I've tried to figure out where the video was taken from and make estimates of the flight path...image from Google Earth attached.

    At the start of video you can see a ferry dock (?). Notice there's a floating support half-way across the ramp to shore. I think the video was taken along the shore near the intersection of 20th and Avenue C.

    If this is where the video was taken, the helicopter comes out of the vertical dive to the South-East of the camera, then proceeds North up the East River. It seems to disappear from view roughly offshore from the 34th street heliport. Any folks familiar with NY city that can validate these guesses?

    I wonder if he was trying to return to the departure point? Or perhaps he get disoriented and thought he was continuing South towards the Williamsburg Bridge? If heading back to the heliport, wouldn't he have descended?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 1:01 AM
  31. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, it's also translated from German. Those sneaky Germans...
     
  32. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    According to reports he was trying to get back to the 34th street helipad (where he started). What's missing on your map is where he hit the building which is right at the upper edge of your image chip.

    Still, since his routing OUT had to be down the East River, why returning there wouldn't have stayed down over the river. Even if you couldn't find 34th street, there's lots of areas along the river (and the river itself) that are better than doing a Cory Lidle into the Manhattan skyline.
     
  33. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The latest info has the pilot calling ATC that he was "lost" and trying to get back to the heliport.
     
  34. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Anybody know what frequency he was using? Maybe there's a LiveATC recording.
     
  35. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    Yep, he's alive. I speak German and read the wiki.
     
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  36. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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  37. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    Skill? Oh please. That's almost exactly how my first time trying to hold a hover went. :)

    That's the first time I've returned to pprune in several years. It's good to know many of the same folks are still there. Good people, too.
     
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  38. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    Nice depiction. See if you can add the crash site to it. Would get Indra of line
     
  39. Bob Vila

    Bob Vila Filing Flight Plan

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    I'm from NYC. What you are calling a ferry dock is actually is the Skyport Marina. Where you can dock your multimillion dollar yacht while you're have a hot dog!. It is also the NY Skyports Seaplane Base 6N7. (the floating support)

    Both are at 23rd street and the FDR drive. The heliport is north of the marina and seaplane base at 34th street and the FDR drive. The accident occurred on the west side of NYC on 7th Avenue and 51/52nd street. Quite some distance from the 34th street Heliport.
     
  40. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think beny was being sarcastic.