Heli crash NYC

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by 1anG, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,598
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    The FAA apparently has said that the pilot should not have been flying that day since he didn't have his instrument rating. Regardless of whether disorientation or a mechanical issue, which seems unlikely to me, I would think he would have stayed out of the clouds once clear.

    I guess my question is since you have a machine that can stop and hover, why not do that once you are visual, get your bearings, stay under the deck and find a place to land? The pucker factor aside, am I over simplifying it?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...d-nyc-skyscraper-shouldn-t-have-been-n1016041
     
  2. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    951
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    How are you a pro pilot for years, transporting passengers, without the IR? It speaks to me of what the employERS of such people don't realize. How likely is it that the woman this guy flew every day for 5 years didn't know he couldn't fly into a friggin' cloud? Amazing.
     
  3. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    989
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warlock
    His route down along the east river then up the Hudson River...daily mail article shows it...
     
  4. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    11,343
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    From what I understand that is not unusual in the helicopter world.

    A while back here in New Mexico there was a rash of EMS helicopter crashes. Mostly VMC into IMC at night, and the pilots were not instrument rated. That is quickly changing.
     
  5. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    2,328
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    I don't understand why declaring an emergency would work any better than landing where you can see the landing spot.
     
    SToL likes this.
  6. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,704
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    It's not so much if the pilot is Instrument qualified, rather if the helicopter is IFR capable. There are only a handful of single engine helicopters that are IFR cert and most twin engine helicopters require a crew of 2 unless it is OEM/STC'd single pilot IFR capable. I don't believe the 109E came factory SPIFR as the Grand or SP does, but I could be wrong. So if this 109E was not SPIFR then he couldn't fly IFR unless he had another pilot with him. Helicopter IFR ops are different than fixed wing and I've known quite a few pro helicopter pilots who spent their entire career only in VFR and not IFR current.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
    Zeldman likes this.
  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    16,951
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    That was the dead guy's brother (at least in the one I saw), not the press. But, yes it irks me when someone does something stupid and crashes, he's a hero because he missed killing anybody on the ground.
     
  8. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    I don't know, he seemed quite proficient at flying into clouds to me. But we know what you meant. :)

    This guy bit off much more than he could chew and got in way above his head. In the twitter video it appears to me that he most likely lost situational awareness, and control of the aircraft and luckily came out in a dive below the cloud layer. He then regained control and continued to fly along and ultimately back up into the clouds.

    That's the big question right there... Why? He obviously had plenty of space below the cloud layer with decent visibility, why climb back up? At this point, it's all speculation.
     
  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,900
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    We were thinking medical tonight at work. Possible I guess. Just wouldn’t make sense to go back up or even continue on when you just survived an Airwolf dive like that. I’d bring to a hover, gather my senses and come up with a VMC plan.
     
    SToL and mryan75 like this.
  10. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    951
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    Another thing that occurred to me: though it's pretty likely that the distance he transported his passenger on a very regular basis was less than 50 nm, I find it very, very hard to believe he could spend years doing that without transporting a passenger at night. Which sans IR would be illegal obviously.
     
  11. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    It is?
     
  12. Turbo-Arrow-Driver

    Turbo-Arrow-Driver Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    NorCal
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Turbo-Arrow-Driver
    Declaring the emergency is an admission that you're in trouble and it totally changes your mind set. Plus you get a lot of help right away. Yeah, he could have just gone back to the departure helipad...if he still knew where he was. In this situation it's my opinion that the emergency option would have been the best choice. Again, that's only my opinion and I'm not even claiming it's the right answer...just my opinion.
     
    Palmpilot likes this.
  13. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    I think the common consensus here is disorientation compounded by his apparent lack of proficiency on instruments. In that case all the talking on the radio probably would have been of little or no help.
     
  14. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
  15. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    989
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warlock
    The bottom of a high speed dive admittedly is a thing that the first time can be very disorienting in a helicopter between the g forces and the 2 out 4 to one vibration in the airframe, unlike a fixed wing...I am probably qualified to discuss it..I flew Cobras and Early Apaches where diving fire was an ATM required task...I spent a lot of time close to retreating blade stall on pullouts...why he went back in the clouds and not land it or being it to a hover and sort it out is a question...just in my brain cannot find any reason to continue high speed flight.
     
    Bobanna likes this.
  16. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,704
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Yet they do that exact thing in helicopter EMS flights every night in non-IFR capable aircraft?
     
  17. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    16,951
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    And people die.

    I was in the emergency medical service (I'd just gotten my paramedic certification) when my Lt. found the State Police medevac that went down coming back from Shock-a-rama in lousy weahter.
     
    SToL likes this.
  18. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    So you automatically jump to assuming it was a Part 135 flight? I don't know if it was or not, do you?

    A lot of corporate flights are conducted under part 91, and even a lot of commercial flights are as well. So why assume more? Why not wait and find out the facts>
     
    KA550 likes this.
  19. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    But the pilot may be IFR certified which would allow night flight in non IFR conditions in a No. IFR certified plane.
     
  20. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,900
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Well, that doesn’t mean a whole lot. Our non IFR capable helicopter is better equipped than than most SE fixed wing airplanes. The FAA’s certification requirements are antiquated.

    293B83BE-D295-4CE2-A092-7A20B6446927.jpeg
     
    Cooter and SToL like this.
  21. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    536
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    I could never get those dim enough for my satisfaction.
     
  22. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,379
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    I didn't think to look at the distance between the heliport and the crash site. It probably wasn't very far.

    The video definitely asks more questions than it answers.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  23. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,900
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    The 500H? With the NVG filter over it, it’s pretty dim. I usually just point the overhead light at it and let it adjust on its own.

    It just makes me laugh though when the FAA won’t certify a helicopter like that IFR but yet I took my FW IFR checkride in a crappy PA28, with no autopilot steam and just a 430. Completely legal to fly that thing in actual. I just finished my annual 135.293 ride a few minutes ago and did an ILS coupled to the autopilot but yet it’s not legal for IFR. Ridiculous.

    The panel in the accident aircraft was decked out as well.
     
    SToL likes this.
  24. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    So why does the FAA give the Helios a real hard time with IFR certification? What is the process? Is it an airframe thing?? That panel above is crazy decked out!
     
  25. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Piperonca
    A normal pilot would, but not one that was in shock.
     
    Velocity173 and Gerhardt like this.
  26. Turbo-Arrow-Driver

    Turbo-Arrow-Driver Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    NorCal
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Turbo-Arrow-Driver
    I agree that (given the info we have to work with here), that's the likely cause of the accident.

    I was making an assumption in my comment which I should have stated explicitly: From the video it appears there was a period of time in which the pilot had adequate visual reference to safely control the craft w/o reference to instruments. That would have been the time to declare emergency and ask for help (or return to the departure point if the pilot knew where he was).

    Shortly thereafter, the craft appears to re-enter IMC -- at that point I also agree there would have been little value in asking for help.
     
    SToL likes this.
  27. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,900
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Stability. Your typical certified GA fixed wing exhibits positive static stability. They naturally want to return to equilibrium if disturbed. A helicopter exhibits negative static stability to varying degrees. For instance the B206 I could take my hands off the controls and she’d wander about but nothing aggressive. Force trim helps also. In the B407 if I take my hand off the cyclic, no kidding, we’ll be upside down within 2 secs. It’s incredibly responsive and unstable. That’s why it’s nicknamed the “sports car of helicopters.”

    Forget about the 91.205 stuff. That’s just a starting point for a helicopter. Now, I don’t have the Part 27 IFR criteria memorized but off hand, you gotta have a backup attitude indicator, dual electrical sources (batt doesn’t count), for some reason a big azz glare shield, finally and most importantly, stability augmentation systems (SAS) / automatic flight control system (AFCS) with autopilot. Probably some things I left out there but you get the picture. Some things in there that aren’t required for fixed wing but yet are for helos.

    So, in order to get a little single engine helo certified for single pilot IFR, you’ve got spend some $$$. Last I saw, there’s maybe a half a dozen 407s in the country that have all the STCs for IFR. There’s a decked out 206 up the road from me that’s IFR as well and it’s one of the few I’ve seen. Guy spent a fortune on it. I believe our autopilot (Helisas) alone was around $130K and rumor was we got a discount because we bought a few hundred of them. Without that system, no, I wouldn’t want to fly IFR nor should the FAA certify it IFR. With our Helisas and 500H coupled to the 530, no reason not to certify it IFR. All the other little things for cert is just unneeded fluff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  28. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,445
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kent
    Gerhardt likes this.
  29. Maxnr

    Maxnr Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2018
    Messages:
    88
    Location:
    NW FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Dingley
    I agree with the consensus that the pilot was not up to speed in this A/C. Its a 160 KT helo. I don't know if the AW109E is certified under FAR 27 (helo equiv of prt 23) or FAR 29. (Transport cat.) Big difference. SK-76, BE-212/412, etc are part 29. They must have dual autopilots, dual generators, minimum engine out performance and the hgt/velocity diagram is in sec 1 (limitations) of the flight manual. You need two pilots to take them into the clouds under pt 135 even though a single pilot is OK to handle them under 91. Lots of part 27 A/C are well equiped and are OK for IFR.
    There were a lot of 250 hour pilots that flew the UH-1s darn well on the gauges. That old girl didn't have any kind of SAS or AFCS installed.
    WAR STORY ALERT: I was a DustOff pilot in 69 and pulled some field standbys with the 3/506, 101 AM Div. We lived with a medical aid station. One day, an E-4 pharmacy tech arrived fresh from the states. Nice kid. He had lots of questions about our two HUEYs. He was up on aviation and had soloed a 172. First thing I knew, the rest of the crew strapped him into my seat. Away we went out over the China Sea. He flew our baby for about an hour. We had the doors pinned back. I borrowed the crew chiefs M2 carbine, put the selector on "sprinkle" and wasted most of his ammo shooting at sharks. We never got over 500'. After landing, he said she handled just like a Skyhawk. I can imagine the "Dear Mom" letter to home. "First day in the field and I flew a HUEY. Hard to communicate with all that machine gun fire in the back."
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  30. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,114
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Where does one look up the pilot certificates?
    Is there a link to the site where one can look up?

    I'm curious about what ratings my father, who passed away, had.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  31. James Darren

    James Darren Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James Darren
    This is very common in the heli world.

    Almost all of the film/tv pilots who I've worked with on some of the biggest movies in the world do not hold an instrument rating, even if their helicopter is IFR capable...
     
  32. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,813
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    The FAA’s web site allows a search:

    https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.
  33. jallen0

    jallen0 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    188
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jallen0
    Report on the news this morning was that the pilot was "lost".
     
  34. rocketflyer84

    rocketflyer84 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2014
    Messages:
    712
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RocketFlyer84
    Why does your non-IFR aircraft appear to have a label-maker printed placard (bottom left) saying to turn off the strobe lights upon entering cloud? ;-)

    Just curious, not trying to make a fuss.
     
  35. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    10,900
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    IIMC at night.
     
  36. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,704
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Just to add to the above. There are 4 separate (independent) flight axis to control: longitudinal, lateral, yaw, and pitch (collective). And in 99% of the aircraft those control axis are hydraulically boosted. In order to achieve FAA IFR capability, 3 of those axis must be also controlled by an autopilot. The new digital APs are 4 axis in most cases. The rest of the FAA mumbo jumbo is aircraft system redundancy which in a SE helicopter leaves you with almost no usable load. The easiest part is the avionics package. However, Bell is marketing a version of the 407 (GXi) to the Navy as a new trainer and one requirement is IFR capable. Word is this will happen by this August. If so, I see factory retrofit kits to IFR existing 407s in the future for those who want the upgrade.
     
  37. Bell206

    Bell206 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,704
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    But for the Ferrari experience there's nothing like a BO-105.;)
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  38. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,114
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    Thanks. Do you happen to know, are pilots cert. removed after they are deceased or when they are expired? Or do they keep the historical records as well?
     
  39. Warlock

    Warlock Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    989
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warlock
    They remain for at least awhile but not sure how long...or if ever they are purged...

    My last mission in Germany just prior to the wall coming down, was to fly a cooler to Charlie Zimmerman a Captain in the Bundeswehr, who was also the Factory BO-105 Test and Demo pilot and World Helicopter Aerobatics Champion...a 72 Quart Igloo fit perfectly in the AH-1 Ammo Bay with the can removed...Charlie and the 105 could do things that just are hard to explain. Was also killed shortly after doing a demo..
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  40. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Piperonca
    Probably a permanent record. My father, both uncles, and an aunt have pilot information posted. All are deceased, with the furthest back 44 years ago. Charles A. and Anne Morrow Lindbergh are there also.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.