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Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Stallhorn, Sep 14, 2017.
Shop around. My Aspen installed was about $11,000 with 2 ACUs.
This is what Garmin support replied to my inquiry re replacing my failing AI with a G5 in AI mode (in an effort to eliminate vacuum system altogether):
Thank You for contacting Garmin International. The Century IIB autopilot requires its own attitude source. The G5 attitude is not capable of supplying attitude to the Century IIB and therefore you must keep your present attitude source for the Century IIB.
Garmin Aviation Field Service
Aircraft Spruce : $5093 for two G5s, a GAD 29, GMU11 and I assume two backup batteries.
Chief : $6995 for the GFC 500 which should be the three servo version with autotrim.
So they basically want $13k in labor + whatever the markup on equipment is. I wouldn't want to pay tax on that. :-(
I wonder if you already have another AP if that would make it any cheaper, figuring servos, brackets already there, probably just have to drill new holes for the new servos.
$13000 for labor, at $100/hr, that's 130 hours...if including dual G5s, plus GAD, GMU,servos, GFC...that's about 20hrs per box.
I doubt it, if anything it will probably add cost to remove all that stuff. Wiring should not be reused nor would I want it left in there. The servos may not even interface the same way. I've noticed a lot of cables and chains on existing autopilots and so far the new ones (like trutrak) are all using pushrods and not necessarily located in the same place.
Google pictures of the ARC200 servos and a Garmin GSA28 servo, they aren't even similar.
yah, looks like they some markup on the units but they are with taxes. i will find out if they would install it if i buy online and save some there and no tax. the install is flat rate as per the quote , wonder if that changes if i am buying the units from somewhere else. labor - $3760 for Dual G5 install and $7920 for AP
What's even worse is that I just got done listening to the recording of Garmin's webinar from Tuesday night. They basically said that they are not actively working on getting the G5 to work with Century Autopilots and don't expect it anytime soon. That's terrible news for me...good news for Aspen I guess. I was really hoping this would be a legitimate option to replace my aging/failing vacuum system...
think Garmin is expecting people will switch over to GFC 500. Aspen may be a good option, but not sure what they are doing to innovate. doesn't look like anything has changed in their product in about a decade. b/w think there is a promo going on from Aspen, you can get a VFR one in less than 4k
I did get a direct response from Brittain Autopilots saying they expect the G5 HSI with the GAD29B to be compatible. I don't think any Brttains use the attitude indicator for anything so in theory I could toss both the vacuum attitude indicator and direction gyro for G5s.
"will provide emulated DG and HSI signals compatible with Brittain G502A and NSD360"
Unfortunately I still won't have any autopilot controlling the pitch axis
To me this is not necessarily ideal, but not a showstopper. I know we all want to ditch our vacuum systems, but let's consider this: it's a completely redundant attitude "power" source which doesn't rely on anything electrical/electronic whatsoever. And if your attitude-based autopilot takes the input from your legacy ADI and the G5 HSI for heading/nav, it upgrades the old AP to GNSS if you have GTN series Navigator (which many of us, myself included, have), with the GAD29B converter. That's a massive upgrade to an old autopilot for pennies on the dollar.
I also like the idea that the pilot's primary ADI is not the AP's primary ADI; it makes troubleshooting an attitude indication disagreement very simple.
So overall the G5 ADI's inability to interface with an AP is not that big of a deal, in my view... you get plenty out of your backup and the new G5 HSI, for far less than Aspen or any other offering out there.
I think its decent, for roughly $3000 in equipment I can get a brand new digital HSI that can display a standby attitude indicator (pretty sure it will display the airspeed & altitude tapes also) has its own standby battery, hook that to my old legacy vacuum powered brittain and getting GPS steering to boot.
This also made the older Sandel 3308 style units virtually worthless.
b/w in the press release Garmin said "A combination of dual G5 electronic flight instruments for certificated aircraft is available starting at an expected street price of $4,598." but i cant find that deal anywhere. anyone knows if some dealer is selling that? not sure if that includes GAD 29B or not, most likely not
I believe the HSI, magnetometer, and GAD come packaged together for a street price of $2950, so add the attitude G5 and you are $5100 or so.
The more I look at installing dual G5s then a GFC500 later the more I think we will wait till the GFC500 is approved for the makes & models we have. I really don't want to have to relocate the GMU11 down the road because we didn't have the whole picture upfront.
A couple big points
#1 CANBUS length cannot be over 85 feet. This wiring hooks the G5s to the GMU11 magnetomter and to the servos. It should be fairly easy to stay under that 85 foot limitation.
#2 Since we don't know where the GFC500 roll servo will be the safest place for the GMU11 seems to be a wingtip if it will pass the magnetic interefence test. To keep CANBUS length down to a minumum it would sure be nice of the roll servo was in the same wing as the GMU11.
these are great points. I am currently in the same boat, tip towing around should I install the dual G5 now or wait until GFC 500 is approved for PA 28 and the installers get some opportunity to learn it before they touch mine. the install cost of the AP seems too high from the quote I got, but that may be because they haven't done any and is just guestimating
Just a comment for the roll servo location on the PA-28. It’ll most likely be under the rear seats. Access is good, there is plenty of room and the area has to be open anyway if wiring has to be run in a wing.
Yah I saw something intheir related to AP during my annual, just didn't know which servo it was
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Finally looks like there is movement on being able to hook two navigation radios to the G5 HSI. Note: Still not for the certified aircraft.
i am meeting my avionics guy tonight and check on this. rt now my AP is connected to 2 radios with a selector switch. hoping to keep the same set up with the HSI
Right now the HSI can only display one per the STC. That means the #2 must have its own display (CDI) and it won't change the autopilot interface for the #2 radio. (The HSI should be wired thru that same selector switch as it is now.)
Also noticed that in that link above it describes only two combinations when the G5 is connected to two navs, dual GTN or GTN & GNC. The SL30 has no ARINC outputs to work in the dual setup. Not certain why GNS aren't shown in dual setups.
Hmm.. something I need to clarify with Garmin or my shop. On Garmin website 480 wasn't even listed, but they confirmed that it's supported. I do have SL 30
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In regards to the AI G5. Do you know how to get the VDI to work? I initially installed mine without a WAAS GPS so it had it's own antenna. After I WAAS'ed my 530 they forgot to hook them together. I just sent it back to the shop to knock out a few loose ends and he called me saying the CDI works and they are talking to each other but for the VDI Garmin requires some sort of additional adapter.
You seem knowledgeable about this kind of stuff, does that sound right to you?
From what I understand the GNS series does not have enough ARINC 429 ports to completely support the GAD29 adapter interfaced to the G5 HSIs. This is being corrected by software revision for the GNS to be released asap.
Some folks are not gonna be happy when the avionics shop says you can have the G5 HSI but you need to disconnect _________ for the ARINC 429 port.
A lone G5 installed per STC data as an attitude indicator cannot display lateral or vertical deviation nav information
Someone I know just ran into a configuration with dual G5 and GTN that ran the GNS 530 out of physical ports, but Garmin’s marketing made it sound like it would all work along with some ADS-B weather/data gizmo.
Their installer is eating the entire labor cost for free to swap them out to a GTN. Ugly for the installer, but he sold it as a working setup, and he’s making it right, as long as that club buys the GTN.
They contacted Garmin and the software change wasn’t going to work for them, or wasn’t available, I forgot to ask the person I know who just went through it.
My avionics techs said they were going to daisy chain 2 of the existing devices together to free up a port. The 2 devices are receiving only, so no interference to worry about.
Garmin has an Ethernet bus which it apparently doesn’t use on G5s, probably because it started as an experimental.
The GNS and G5s do not use Ethernet interfaces per STC. The pinout diagram of the lone 9 pin connector on the G5 shows no Ethernet capability.
The GTN and GTX345s do. I'm not certain what other devices will but I know there are several open Ethernet ports on my GTN, and all of the ARINC 429 ports.
O great.... Don't know what port 480 has, but sounds like there will be a lot of hiccups for me down the road. I have a gmx 200 slaved to 480
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That’s probably what is going on in the dual G5 installs with GNS’ then? Out of ports for the second one?
You only need 1 RS232 port/channel for dual G5s, GTN has 4 of them, Im currently using all 4: JPI and FS210 are dual channels (why the 210 doesn’t use Ethernet?, I think it was developed by experimental group, then converted to certified), the GNC255 and KT74 receive only. So the G5 is receive only and doesn’t send anything back to the GPS, so in theory it can be tied to one of the others, or they can tie the 74 and 210 together and free up a port for the G5. Depends if they use the MapMx protocols like the G5.
The RS232 is either for GPS aiding in lieu of an eternal antenna connected to G5 or VHF nav data from an SL30, there isn't any other use for it per STC drawings.
I noted somewhere on this board, the experimental HSI version has just recently enabled tracking ability of up to two navigation radios, all of those drawings are interfaced via ARINC 429, so the SL30 can't do it.
More design I don't care for revealed on Beechtalk.
The G5 DG&HSI versions require the GMU 11 at install. The GMU11 is the magnetic reference, flux valve, flux detector, magnetometer, whatever you want to call it.
Let us assume the required GPS aiding is provided by a panel mounted GNS/GTN over RS232.
Power failure in your bug smasher, GNS/GTN drop out. The G5 is still running on its own battery BUT the GMU11 is now offline too along with GPS aiding! The DG is now in dead reckoning mode since both the GPS and GMU are down.
They recommend that the G5 have a dedicated external antenna, in the event of complete power failure the GPS track will still be displayed if they have their own antenna.
Vent -> How many freaking external GPS antennas do they think we have room for?
Just a side note. The Aspen does have a GPS receiver included in the magnetometer/OAT/whatever sensor package. The GPS is not certified and is not normally used. It will provide track to the next waypoint in the current flightplan if the Aspen loses external GPS input.
And of course Garmin does not support GPS antenna splitters. They want to keep selling $300+ antennas.
If you don't have room (they require certain spacing) you can always buy a VHF/GPS antenna for near $1k.
cant the GMU 11 acquire a direct signal without an antennal or GPS input source?
The GMU is only a magnetic sensor, to provide a magnetic heading on the DG, powered by the aircraft's bus only and not the G5 standby battery. It is a required piece of the DG/HSI system.
Any G5 install (AI or DG/HSI, AI & DG/HSI) must have GPS input which can be done two ways;
#1. RS232 from an existing approved GPS system, or
#2. A dedicated GPS antenna connected directly to a G5.
Assume total electrical power failure, it takes out the panel mounted GPS and the GMU11 (in most typical personal piston aircraft that have only one electrical system) at this point the G5 goes into "dead reckoning mode"
well that sucks. I was told by a avionics shop that the GMU 11 gets its power from the G5
Thanks for sharing this. explains. however, I have also read somewhere that G5 has a internal WAAS antenna? is that not true