Ford 9N Ignition Issues

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,571
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    He said he's got some rotor/cap interference earlier. He's gotta rebuild the dizzy anyway, so there's an additional 20 minutes either way.
     
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    I would do the electronic ignition, get it set up right and you should never have to mess with it again in your lifetime, not so with points.
     
  3. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,167
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Right, that repair doesn't change whether he switches back to points or not, it's just the time to get it assembled back as points/condenser, set the dwell/etc, and wire in the ballast resistor. It's just more complication for no gain when all he'd have to do is just replace the Pertronix module he already has with a new one. Hell, it may be even easier if he buys a new distributor cap instead of adjusting his current one for the interference issues.
     
  4. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,399
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    FWIW: if you plan to use tractor on regular basis points will work fine. If you plan to let it sit for extended periods EI seems to work better. I converted my 8N and 2N to EI as they sit for a spell. Got tired of having to pass a dollar bill through the points everytime when I wanted to go.
     
    Zeldman likes this.
  5. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    I broke down and decided to buy the new/freshly overhauled magneto with points for $80 off eBay. Few hundred sold, good reviews, so I figured that gives me a known good starting point. However, I will have to wire up the ballast resistor or I'll burn up the points.

    I'm trying to figure out the correct wiring and my Google-fu apparently hasn't worked thus far. It looks like I wire it directly in-line on the ignition, but I've seen some things that say for starting it should go direct to the battery, and then switch over to going through the resistor when it's running. Anyone with a 2N/8N/9N who can guide me through how this should work?
     
  6. flyingbrit

    flyingbrit Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    103
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    flyingbrit
    Your tractor originally had a 6V coil with an external ballast resistor connected all the time. But yours is now 12V so that's irrelevant. 12V coils are available either externally ballasted or not. They should say on the instructions that come with them, or printed on the outside. A ballasted coil is way overkill for a low revving four cylinder. Simplest thing is to get a coil that does not need a ballast, e.g. a Bosch Blue Coil. That way you avoid the extra wiring for the ballast resistor.
     
  7. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,167
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    [​IMG]

    Obviously not specific to a 12V-converted 2/8/9N, but the principle is the same. Find the line coming from the RUN side of the ignition and wire in the ballast resistor right before the coil. Make sure the 12V from the START post of the starter solenoid ties in on the coil-side of the ballast resistor so it is bypassed. Done.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  8. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,571
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    Exactly. The ballast was for the coil, not the points. The original coil was a 3v, so it needed the ballast for the 6v system. You have a new 12v coil from TSC. You should be set on that front. The condenser protects the points from burning. If it's a front- mount square can coil, measure the resistance across the terminals. If it's 2.5 ohms or so, you should prolly use the resistor in line with the 12v. If it's more than that, you won't need it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  9. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Ok, that makes sense. I had thought though that the 12V conversions included a coil sized to maintain the same ballast resistor?
     
  10. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,571
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    That's why I'm suggesting checking the resistance, just to be sure. I'm thinking maybe it's kind of like the old Renix jeeps. They have a ballast resistor in line with the fuel pump 12v that kicked in after starting, for no reason other than to keep the pump quieter. If your coil has greater than 2.5 ohms, you really don't need it, not that it would hurt anything. At 2.5 ohm, without the ballast resistor it'd probably get hot and shorten it's life.
     
    Cooter and Ted DuPuis like this.
  11. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Good info, thanks. I'll check tonight.
     
  12. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,259
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    Something one needs to watch on that diagram: The starter relay needs to have the proper, separate terminal for the ballast bypass feed. If you simply tie the ballast to the start terminal along with the wire from the start/ignition switch, you get backfeed from the "run" wire through the ballast and into the start terminal on the relay, and the relay might/probably close and keep the starter running. At the very least the relay will get hot, since it's an intermittent relay and its coil has less resistance.

    The proper relay has a second terminal that is fed from the large contact plate inside the relay, so it's dead once the starter is released.
     
    SoonerAviator likes this.
  13. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,259
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    If it's a magneto, why would you need to connect power to it at all?
     
    Cooter likes this.
  14. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    That's a good question, I'm thinking it's not a magneto, but a distributor, cap and points.
     
  15. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Cooter likes this.
  16. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,167
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Correct. It’s not clearly depicted on the diagram, but there should be a separate post on the starter solenoid to connect the 12V start circuit to, as opposed to sharing the post with the 12V circuit coming from the ignition key itself.

    Good thing to point out.
     
  17. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,257
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    The 9N didn’t come with a magneto. The wartime production 2N did. I’ve been around a lot of these tractors and haven’t seen one with a magneto, but there are some out there.
     
  18. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,257
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    6EB95243-B718-4504-BDAA-FE77C01F4858.jpeg
    I think this might be the wiring setup you need. It explains he resistance.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  19. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    I don't believe I mentioned a magneto on the 9N. Although I would like to go to one if I could find one, it's a 12V system. It had an electronic ignition module, and I'll be putting it back to points for the moment since I needed a rebuilt distributor anyway and that seemed the cheapest way to go. There are some folks who also are notably of the opinion that these things should never have been converted to 12V, they should've stayed 6V. Well, whatever, this one's 12V. I don't think I would've converted it but it is what it is now.

    I went downstairs and checked the resistance on the coil, and it came in at 2.5 ohms. So if Cooter's diagram above is correct, that means that I do need to add a resistor in-line to get to the 3.5-4 ohms. Looking online there's some inconsistency in what's recommended exactly but it does seem to say that under 3 ohms you should add a resistor to keep from burning up the coil. Curious what other thoughts are on here...
     
  20. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,257
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    Did you measure the resistance of the coil itself?
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    That was the primary resistance between the lead on the top and the coil on the bottom. If I measure the secondary resistance (the part that goes to the distributor rotor) that's 8.7 kohm.
     
  22. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,257
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cooter
    14.5/2.5= 5.8amps
    You need to add enough resistance to get it to around 3.5 amps, so add 1.5 ohms going to the coil.
     
    Chip Sylverne and Ted DuPuis like this.
  23. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2018
    Messages:
    213
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    -KLB-
    And if you don’t want to cook the resistor if you leave the key on, not running, it needs to be at least 5.25 watt rated. 5 would probably do if you are halfway decent about not letting it sit key on, not running. 10 if you like safety margins.
     
  24. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,170
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    The other post on the solenoid is a NO contact that closes when the solenoid is energized. It's used to bypass the resistor when starting and send 12V to the coil. I suppose you know that but I wanted to make it clear to Ted.
     
    SoonerAviator likes this.
  25. kmacht

    kmacht Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    123
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kmacht
    Or you can skip all the rewiring and buying a ballast resistor and instead put in a 12v coil. Why complicate things with more wires and parts if you are already running a 12v battery and alternator. You can get a direct drop in replacement 12v coil from napa for about $30. If you need the part number let me know and ill get it off my antique ford tractor tonight.

    Keith.
     
  26. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,571
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    The aforementioned Jeep Cherokee fuel pump ballast resistor is 1.6 ohms, ceramic with a bolt hole and spade connectors. Costs like $6 online. Years 87-early 90's I think. Common as dirt and sounds like it throwing it in line with the coil 12v would be just what the doctor ordered. Probably .50 if you have a local pik 'n pull. It's mounted inside top of left front fender.

    https://www.quadratec.com/p/crown-a...MIg_bE4vXH4QIVyp6zCh2FTgwJEAQYAiABEgLnb_D_BwE
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  27. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Keith, I did buy the 12V coil for $30. However from what I can gather the resistance of these 12V coils still varies somewhat and in this case the resistance may be too low.

    Perfect, that sounds like a good solution. I'll see about getting one of those.

    The weather's supposed to be not pleasant this weekend for outside work, so I'll try to get things set up so I can put it together when the weather is nicer next week... for both the 9N and the D4.
     
    Cooter likes this.
  28. kmacht

    kmacht Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    123
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kmacht
  29. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Those round coils won't work on the 9N unless I go with the Pertronix electronic ignition kit, which converts to a standard round coil. The 2N/8N/9N front distributor models use the square coil, like this:

    https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/12VOLTCOIL_Coil-12-Volt_451.htm
     
  30. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,259
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    There were 12 volt coils that used external ballasts, and 12 volt coils that had an internal ballast. I think the latter had an extra winding in it that offered inductive resistance at operating speeds, but little resistance at starting revs. (I think. It's been a long time.) One needs to know which one he's buying. Using a ballast resistor with the latter will result in weak spark. Not using the ballast with the former will burn out the former.

    Edit: I Googled it. More info: coil_internal_res_Chrysler_Imperial_53_55.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  31. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    10,567
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    I haven't heard of anyone having to do that in a really long time...:lol::lol:
     
  32. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Better be at least a cell phone video of this thing running posted soon here..... just saying.
     
  33. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    I'll get to it when I get to it. First I need parts in-hand, then I need a nice enough day to work outside, and time.
     
  34. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    8,127
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Soon snuck in there on me, but don't forget the video.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  35. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    No worries, I will post a video when all is said and done.

    I could post it on YouTube as "FIRST START! IT WORKED ON THE FIRST TRY! Ok no it didn't..."
     
    david.h and PaulS like this.
  36. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    14,951
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    "FIRST START! IT WORKED ON THE FIRST TRY! Ok no it didn't... - A parody"
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  37. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    IT RUNS!

    Sorry, I don't have a video (yet).

    The new distributor arrived yesterday. Yes, it's a points distributor. So I decided to install it, wire it up, and see if I could get it to go. It fired off immediately, but then died. I thought "Great..." and then cranked again while playing with the choke some, and got it going. It let out a belch of oil smoke as I fired the thing up, no surprise given the first real start and oil on the cylinder walls. The engine sounds good. Firing evenly, running smoothly.

    But, no oil pressure. Yes it has oil. This thing had a problem with losing prime before the engine rebuild, and I've heard that this is a common problem on 9N/8N/2N tractors. What I used to be able to do was take a bottle and squeeze oil backwards through the pressure feed going to the filter, and that would reprime it enough. The kids wanted attention so I tried that, but probably not long enough. I'm thinking about putting a pre-oiler in, as dumb of a solution as that sounds to the problem on an 80 year old tractor.

    I also didn't want to run it for all too long because I hadn't yet bought a ballast resistor, and so I didn't want to fry the coil. Figuring the important part was cranking and starting, I figured a little exposure without the ballast resistor would be fine.

    So while it runs, it's not back to driving yet. I have to:

    - Get (and install) the ballast resistor
    - Figure out what to do about the oil prime issue
    - Fix the mount for the alternator (right now the tensioner doesn't have a place to mount)
    - Bolt down the hood fully and wire up the headlights

    Once I get the ballast resistor in and get the engine primed, I'm going to start it and let it run for an hour, which is what the forums say you're supposed to do for break-in, and then retorque the head bolts. Obviously I don't want to do that until it has good oil pressure.

    But, the ignition issue seems to be resolved. I wish I knew why the stupid thing wouldn't start, or started and then died. I played around with the choke with the original carb and then with the replacement carb, and I'm pretty good at whispering to engines. Obviously eventually the coil fried and the electronic ignition module fried as well, but I know the mistake I made with that (specifically leaving the key on without the engine cranking). The thing sat non-running for 2 years and the distributor did seem to have some internal issues, so I guess that's probably it. Regardless, it runs now, and now I just have to finish up some details.
     
  38. TCABM

    TCABM Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,098
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3G
    Congrats Ted.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  39. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,167
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Just a question, have you ruled out a faulty oil pressure sensor/gauge? You might verify that before chasing down issues that aren’t really there.
     
  40. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    24,219
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    #bandozer
    Certainly a possibility and I should do a test to confirm. That said this is a known common issue that this tractor exhibited before. The engine sound also sounds similar to how the thing sounded before when it had lost prime and had no pressure. There’s a noticeable sound difference.