Ford 9N Ignition Issues

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Be careful, that goo is some pretty nasty stuff. Place it in a big zip-lock bag and dispose of it properly.
     
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Yes, like in your neighbor's trash.
     
  3. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, between the cap/rotor being worn, and a little bit of slop in the distributor shaft, that's what drove my decision to get the Petronix billet distributor for the boat when I rebuilt the engine. Cheaper to rebuild the dizzy, but I didn't feel like messing with it and it was an opportune time to upgrade.
     
  4. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Like in @JOhnH flight bag?
     
  5. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I've not noted any slop in the shaft side to side, so I'm not quite sure where that came from exactly.
     
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Your reluctor pickup doesn't really care like a set of points would plus or minus .015" doesn't matter.
    From what I read, a new 12 volt coil should fix this.
     
  7. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I was noting it from my choice in converting to the electronic unit versus the points-style. Since you had done the rebuild, if you didn't indicate any slop in the distributor shaft prior to re-assembly you wouldn't need the whole distributor.
     
  8. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Now where in the world did THAT come from?
     
  9. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    If you think the EI module is fried, and considering you need a new coil, may look at the Petronix 1247XT EI kit. Comes with everything to include module, distributor mod, and new round 12v coil you relocate to a convenient location. This was the route I was going to take until I learned of the DIY route I mentioned previously.
     
  10. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I purchased a new cap and a new coil at TSC over lunch. I'll put things back together, check timing to get an idea to confirm that's all correct, and then override the ignition switch to give that a shot and see if I can start it. I had tried starting fluid, but one thing I'll note is I was spraying into the air cleaner area, so reality is that fluid wouldn't get to the engine in any sort of a timely manner. So I'll try again with the air cleaner disconnected from the carb.

    Maybe I'll be able to get that done this evening and try it.
     
  11. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    Starting fluid (ether) works just fine squited into the air cleaner. Don't use too much of that stuff, they don't call it "the Devil's fluid" for nothing.
     
  12. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    It likely has an oil bath cleaner. You’d have to spray quite a lot to get it through there.
     
  13. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    My M-F 65 has an oil bath. Before I rebuilt the diesel I used starting fluid occasionally. Sprayed it right in through the air cleaner grill in the front. Didn't take much.
     
  14. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You don't have to have all those wires and other ignition parts....

     
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  15. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    A 12V71 would be a good fit...
     
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  16. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Some people prefer carb cleaner, as a lower risk booster fuel. Either way, you can really wash a lot of oil off the cylinder walls and rings.
     
  17. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller En-Route

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    Aww, come on, Ted! Go for a 12V71TI.

    -Skip
     
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  18. Noah Werka

    Noah Werka Pre-takeoff checklist

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  19. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    16V92!
     
  20. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Before putting anything on the tractor I tried putting the distributor cap and rotor on and turning the rotor. The rotor is interfering at one of the spark plugs. Not a lot, I can still turn it, but it is rubbing. I tried the old distributor cap and it rubbed on that too, just at a different cylinder. The old distributor cap shows visible signs of rubs for all 4 spark plug wires. So I sanded that down a bit so there was no hitting.

    I'm only feeling longitudinal play, i.e. no bearing shaft play side to side, just the shaft sliding in and out a bit, so I don't think there's an issue there.

    I did check and confirm that the ignition timing seems to be correct. When the rotor is pointing to a cylinder the valves are closed and the piston is at TDC, or close to it (removed a spark plug and checked for piston location). So I don't think I have a problem as far as ignition timing goes - it's either a problem with ignition itself, or a problem with fuel.

    Then I hooked it all up, cranked and... no spark. Tried using the screwdriver So either my electronic ignition unit is fried, or else it really is an ignition switch issue. I haven't tried running power for the coil directly to the battery and bypassing the switch, but I have a feeling that won't help.

    This has me feeling like I'm chasing my tail on the thing.
     
  21. Cooter

    Cooter Pattern Altitude

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    I usually start by testing the obvious stuff. If that doesn’t work, I start at the battery and test the electron flow all the way to the spark plugs.
     
  22. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Don’t you think the coil is for sure bad? Seems like that’s either all or part of the issue


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I put a new coil on. It is possible the new coil is bad, too.
     
  24. Vaflier

    Vaflier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The fact that your old coil was melted tells me that it should have had a ballast resistor. Excess voltage for too long will fry it. The make internally ballasted coils. Does yours have internal ballast or not. You may need to research the part to determine that.
     
  25. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Do you know how to use a volt meter?
     
  26. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Sorry I missed that Ted. hmmm
     
  27. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    Do you have a local big-box auto retailer like Advance Auto nearby? They can put your module into a harness and test it. The reluctor in the dizzy is a simple square-wave Hall effect sensor. Do you have an O-scope? Those things are pretty bulletproof though.

    If you had enough current to cook the coil,it probably took the module with it. You could scope the output pin of the module too.
    Sounds like somebody shorted something.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  28. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Which p/n module do you have? If it's the Ford TFI version, those things fail at the drop of a hat. Terrible design for heat x-fer.
    If it were me, I'd return that coil and go to the local pik 'n pull and grab an HEI coil and bracket from an old ford for $5.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  29. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yes. I need to do more diagnostics there.

    I don't have an O-scope, although that's a tool that I would like to add to the collection anyway. Maybe I should look on CraigsList for a used one just because that's a good thing to have around.

    I'm not sure what the part number is for that ignition module. However I think I'm at the point where I need to at least pull it off. It makes sense that it probably cooked the module, I was just hoping that maybe it didn't.
     
  30. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I just looked up the Pertronix system for the 9N. A little different than the auto version, looks like the entire system is contained in the dizzy, rather than the dizzy sending a square wave to an external module.
    That thing is stupid expensive. For that money I'd go get a salvage dizzy and replace the bushings and go back to points.

    Complete, brand new bolt-on for $90 free shipping off Amazon.
     
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  31. kmacht

    kmacht Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The pertronix unit isn't nearly as expensive if your 9n already has the 12v conversion done. It is the 6v units that are pricey. Current price is $103.85 on amazon for the one that fits your tractor.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CMRVF2/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Do you have no spark, or just no start? Did you pull a plug and check to see if you get spark after replacing the coil? Before buying any more parts I would check with a volt meter to make sure your coil is getting 12 volts when the ignition switch is turned on. Also double check to make sure you didn't loose that little sheetmetal spring clip that goes between the distributor shaft and the rotor. It can throw your timing off if isn't there and it's really easy to loose because it tends to pop off when you pull the rotor off.

    Keith
     
  32. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I pulled a spark plug wire and confirmed no spark after replacing the coil. Agreed, I need to spend some time with a voltmeter first to figure out WTF is going on there.
     
  33. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    $12 for a tune up kit including points and condenser off Ebay. $9 for a bushing kit, which you need anyway because the rotor is interfering with the cap. So for $21 and an hour or two of labor, you're good to go for years. Or get a master tune up kit for $40, including cap, rotor, wires and plugs.
     
  34. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Key to on position, make sure everything is getting juice. I think it will be an "oh ****" type of simple thing like a loose or miswired wire, or the electronic ignition is fried.
     
  35. -KLB-

    -KLB- Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not to knock used scopes, as I have a couple working tektronix scopes that usually get the job done, but the last couple people who asked me about used scopes, I simply said they need to evaluate the features, risk and pricing against this:

    https://smile.amazon.com/Rigol-DS10...804455&s=gateway&sprefix=Rigol,aps,235&sr=8-1

    So far, the rigol seems to be winning against the used scopes. In fact it is on my list to acquire one of someday. But I will say, ignition is a place to be really careful to not overload and damage the input to the scope. Most people wouldn’t intentionally hook up coil output to the scope, but if coil grounding isn’t good, you could probably get some bad surprises at a few places in the circuit.
     
  36. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    You just wrap three or four turns of #20 or 22 solid copper insulated wire around the ignition lead and connect one end to your scope. Can't fry the scope that way unless the ignition lead's insulation is shot and it arcs through to the sensor wire.
     
  37. flyingbrit

    flyingbrit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Rigol is good value for money; I have one of their spectrum analyzers at work. Too bad that scope is only 50 MHz though. For working around aircraft I would get a 150 MHz one. This allows a quick check of RF output and modulation of the COM transmitter(s).
     
  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I went through and checked the wiring this weekend. The ignition switch might be bad, but based on my tests with a mutlimeter I see no reason to believe it is. I did confirm the electronic ignition is burned out the thing, though.

    This leaves the question of whether to return it to points or get rebuilt electronic ignition. I'm somewhat leaning towards points just because it's easier to buy a rebuilt distributor that's all set to go. Then I have to add in the ballast resistor, but that's simple enough. It seems like that might be a good idea since I need to do something for the spark anyway. And that may have been the problem the whole time.
     
  39. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I like the points idea. Use the money you save to buy the family some ice cream.
     
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  40. SoonerAviator

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    Meh, I'd still just replace the toasted electronic version you have with the Ignitor II module and call it a day. Shouldn't be more than 5 minutes of work, and no need to start hacking wires to add the ballast back in. Points are fine, but if it's already converted there's no reason to go back as these units are generally pretty solid.