Flying to Mexico... For a girl. Is it legal to bring her back?

I think that if we were all in a bar and this discussion broke out in my group, I'd wander over to the bar and order another Perfect Manhattan and find another lively debate about something that can actually be won by someone.
 
MAKG1 said:
There is some chance of that, but of course it is not guaranteed.

For that reason, limiting participation due to gender -- or any other arbitrary characteristic -- is not a good idea. Even if it's based on "common knowledge," as a whole lot of silly myths get perpetuated that way.

"Diversity" can mean a whole hell of a lot of other things as well. It's a buzzword, devoid of actual meaning.
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At the risk of getting drawn back in, I'll say this. Many words have multiple meanings and are often interpreted based on the context. Some words are more anchored to their original meaning by their construction. Diversity seems pretty straightforward "diverse" considering this conversation has been using gender as the example. Communication requires that we share assumptions about the language and words being used. Otherwise it breaks down into a pedantic "tit-for-tat", and no progress will be made. It is also a common tactic for those who purposefully obfuscate and try to redirect the conversation. Remember " it depends on what the meaning of the word is is". That wasn't brought up by Bill because there was any real question about the word, for he even used in the statement he made.

So to the point about it being advantageous to purposefully diversify, the context for my question was this:
During my military PME, a major theme was diversity, and the diverseness focused on race and gender. It was repeatedly claimed that the military's greatest strength is diversity (of gender and race). One four star general was quoted as saying " the last thing we need is a bunch of white, middle aged men making all the decisions". It was with this in mind that I asked the question.
 
172andyou said:
A bunch of pilots trying to figure out women is a movie waiting to happen. Possible titles:

"ready for pushback"
"caution wake turbulence"
"position and hold"
"requesting progressive"
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And from my younger days many years ago:

"Redheads and Red Handles"
"Adjustment Of Attitude"
"Auguring In"
"Boring Holes" - minds out of the gutter; doing a lot going nowhere.
"Coming From Together"
And finally after "Finding The One"
"Cost of Certification"
 
I realize I am late to this discussion but the premise of bringing a minor across the Mexican border brought back this memory: When I was in college one of my my brothers' was "invited" to leave school and his home for an extended period, he was 14. So he lived with me on campus at Stanford for a few quarters and generally had a good time. At Christmas I was planning on climbing Orizaba, an 18,000 ft peak in southern Mexico, and figured I had to take him along. I did a bit of research and there was something about having permission, papers etc but having been to Tijuana many times I knew they did not check anyone's papers crossing the border. All went well until were woken up at 3 AM on the bus to Mexico City, about 100 miles south of the border--apparently that was where the Federales put their border check! We just played dumb (wasn't much of act if you get my drift) and eventually the Federales just threw up their hands and told us, next time, bring papers. Funnily enough can't remember any hassles crossing the Tijuana border back into the US 2 weeks later, I am sure he had no ID on him. Those were the days!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Did you get up Orizaba? I went up Malinche and Iztacchuatl (Popo was closed due to burping)
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Yes Christmas Day--really easy climb although thin air. I think Popo & Ixty have more technical difficulty but I went for the higher peak.

Ran into a lot of H2S on a climb of the Mayon Volcano near Legazpi in the Phillipines, you were wise to beg off if it was burping--at concentrations that will kill you, it wipes out your sense of smell first.
 
Cooter said:
That depends upon he context of the conversation and how willingly the generalization is accepted. All generalizations are not equal, and some are more accurate than others.
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This just struck me funny: Apparently you can't generalize about generalizations.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's a reference to the MGTOW movement. Red pill is the reference to The Matrix where Neo sees the world for what it is after choosing not to take the blue pill of "ignorance is bliss", which is what MGTOWs accuse simps who support the construct of female hypergamy in present day family and divorce law, support consciously or by proxy.
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the problem with MGTOW is that when you say you're looking for a woman who does not exceed your airplanes MGTOW somehow people think you're being an ****at
 
Cooter said:
At the risk of getting drawn back in, I'll say this. Many words have multiple meanings and are often interpreted based on the context. Some words are more anchored to their original meaning by their construction. Diversity seems pretty straightforward "diverse" considering this conversation has been using gender as the example. Communication requires that we share assumptions about the language and words being used. Otherwise it breaks down into a pedantic "tit-for-tat", and no progress will be made. It is also a common tactic for those who purposefully obfuscate and try to redirect the conversation. Remember " it depends on what the meaning of the word is is". That wasn't brought up by Bill because there was any real question about the word, for he even used in the statement he made.

So to the point about it being advantageous to purposefully diversify, the context for my question was this:
During my military PME, a major theme was diversity, and the diverseness focused on race and gender. It was repeatedly claimed that the military's greatest strength is diversity (of gender and race). One four star general was quoted as saying " the last thing we need is a bunch of white, middle aged men making all the decisions". It was with this in mind that I asked the question.
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No, it isn't straightforward. Not even close.

If you think it is, you don't understand the various contradictory things it means. "Diversity" is at least two different "code words." Probably quite a lot more I don't know about.

Many people don't have a problem with specificity. I've come to the conclusion that YOU do. That doesn't mean it's not possible. It means you don't understand. And you have a lot of thinking to do before you do.

Meaning depends on context, but it also depends on the motivation and experience of the speaker. You seem to be asking me to presume yours. Was that stereotyping you were talking about?
 
MAKG1 said:
No, it isn't straightforward. Not even close.

If you think it is, you don't understand the various contradictory things it means. "Diversity" is at least two different "code words." Probably quite a lot more I don't know about.

Many people don't have a problem with specificity. I've come to the conclusion that YOU do. That doesn't mean it's not possible. It means you don't understand. And you have a lot of thinking to do before you do.

Meaning depends on context, but it also depends on the motivation and experience of the speaker. You seem to be asking me to presume yours. Was that stereotyping you were talking about?
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You make a lot of claims that and somehow expect them to be authoritative, but seem to miss that you have simply stated your opinion. Insults are no substitute for substance. It is impossible to miss that I specifically addressed the CONTEXT for diversity in my post. It was explained more than once, only you seem to have trouble understanding the basic plain meaning of the word. I suspect it is selective but regardless, your insistence that regularly used words cannot be understood even after they have been clearly defined has rendered any further discussion with you pointless and a total waste of time. :mad2:
 
Cooter said:
You make a lot of claims that and somehow expect them to be authoritative, but seem to miss that you have simply stated your opinion. Insults are no substitute for substance. It is impossible to miss that I specifically addressed the CONTEXT for diversity in my post. It was explained more than once, only you seem to have trouble understanding the basic plain meaning of the word. I suspect it is selective but regardless, your insistence that regularly used words cannot be understood even after they have been clearly defined has rendered any further discussion with you pointless and a total waste of time. :mad2:
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Because, you are STILL vague.

Even the one time you gave some specifics, it was improved, but still vague.

You're right; it's hopeless until you understand just what it means to use a code word.

I'll give you a big hint. Use ACTIONS, not labels. Be specific about authority, consequence, scope, and context. If you aren't, you're asking to play a game that has no solution, no resolution, and no meaning. I won't play that game.

The world is not so simple as black and white. Diversity itself as a concept is neither good nor bad. It isn't blue either, which is about as meaningful.

And it's ironic as hell that you want me to assume "common" meanings that have nontrivial multiplicities, while still talking about stereotypes. No, "diversity" does not mean the same thing to everyone. Not even close.
 
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A little help from Lewis Carroll:


"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all." (Looking-Glass 6.63-65)

Humpty Dumpy believes that he can exercise total control over language. Unfortunately, as Alice realizes, if he makes words mean anything he wants, then nobody can understand him. People have to agree on shared definitions and meanings for communication to be possible. Copied from shmoop.com

You are claiming that the word is "coded" beyond the point where it can be used in a normal conversation, or even used at all. But this is your claim and whether intentional or not is an attempt to exercise total control over its use. Despite your protests the word is used quite commonly in all forms of media without and real difficulty for either party. I sincerely doubt that any other person is so baffled by its meaning.

 
Cooter said:
It was repeatedly claimed that the military's greatest strength is diversity (of gender and race). One four star general was quoted as saying " the last thing we need is a bunch of white, middle aged men making all the decisions". It was with this in mind that I asked the question.
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This idea is often advanced, but I think it misses the real objective. In a business context (and maybe a military one), there can be an advantage of having a diversity of ideas, thought processes, experiences, perspectives, etc.

Too often we assume that racial and gender diversity brings this about. That's not always true; you could, for example, have a broad spectrum of ethnicities and males and females that were about the same age, grew up in the same geographic area, went to the same college, and have worked for the same company for 20 years. Despite having a tossed salad of genetics, you won't necessarily get the range of ideas and creativity you're seeking.

In addition, this idea blinds us to finding a path to the real objective. We take a trivial (and often ineffective) path of mixing up genetics, when we might do better if we concentrated on getting a variety of cultures, heritages, colleges, experience types and levels, etc. But that would be hard; it's much easier to focus on race and gender.
 
MAKG1 said:
Because, you are STILL vague.

Even the one time you gave some specifics, it was improved, but still vague.

You're right; it's hopeless until you understand just what it means to use a code word.

I'll give you a big hint. Use ACTIONS, not labels. Be specific about authority, consequence, scope, and context. If you aren't, you're asking to play a game that has no solution, no resolution, and no meaning. I won't play that game.

The world is not so simple as black and white. Diversity itself as a concept is neither good nor bad. It isn't blue either, which is about as meaningful.

And it's ironic as hell that you want me to assume "common" meanings that have nontrivial multiplicities, while still talking about stereotypes. No, "diversity" does not mean the same thing to everyone. Not even close.
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Edit, I found it in another quote. Above, you said that the word "diversity" is now meaningless. That makes my point for me, it is meaningless only to you because you have chosen to redefine it.
 
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Cooter said:
I notice you edited your last post before I could quote it. Before the edit, you said that the word "diversity" is now meaningless. That makes my point for me, it is meaningless only to you because you have chosen to redefine it.
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You know that "diversity" is a hot button word these days that brings out different emotions in different people. For some reason you want to debate about it here, but that would put us far into the Spin Zone so it's not going to happen.

Many words have different meanings, depending on context. Take "snowflake", for example.
 
Everskyward said:
You know that "diversity" is a hot button word these days that brings out different emotions in different people. For some reason you want to debate about it here, but that would put us far into the Spin Zone so it's not going to happen.

Many words have different meanings, depending on context. Take "snowflake", for example.
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It was just an example for a larger point. The derail into diversity is because someone insists it has no meaning. Agreed we're into the spin zone. I'll go see if I can find a flying topic somewhere around here.
 
Everskyward said:
You know that "diversity" is a hot button word these days that brings out different emotions in different people. For some reason you want to debate about it here, but that would put us far into the Spin Zone so it's not going to happen.

Many words have different meanings, depending on context. Take "snowflake", for example.
Click to expand...

Snowflakes are very diverse.
 
Cooter said:
A little help from Lewis Carroll:


"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all." (Looking-Glass 6.63-65)

Humpty Dumpy believes that he can exercise total control over language. Unfortunately, as Alice realizes, if he makes words mean anything he wants, then nobody can understand him. People have to agree on shared definitions and meanings for communication to be possible. Copied from shmoop.com

You are claiming that the word is "coded" beyond the point where it can be used in a normal conversation, or even used at all. But this is your claim and whether intentional or not is an attempt to exercise total control over its use. Despite your protests the word is used quite commonly in all forms of media without and real difficulty for either party. I sincerely doubt that any other person is so baffled by its meaning.
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I'm not baffled at all.

I'm aware of multiple meanings. You aren't.

You don't understand the issue.

I mentioned the details necessary to make it meaningful. They do not involve labels. I do see you're avoiding it. I can understand that; it's work to try to really understand a complex issue for the first time. But, you need to accept the decision you have made to avoid it.

Just because you can't or won't think beyond a label doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Quoting Lewis Carroll is not particularly clever. And it's ironic as hell. Look up his history, in real life, as a mathematician, in the context of "diversity."
 
SkyDog58 said:
Ok I won't.
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But you just...

Oops, just remembered I'm supposed to be in the kitchen! Silly me. Let me move my laptop in there so I can respond while I cook, barefoot and pregnant, dreaming about new shoes and men's wallets stuffed with cash.... tall men, who treat me like crap. Because that's as shallow as my thoughts go as a woman.
 
And think, it only took 7 pages to get to this point.

I'm impressed we made it this far.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
But you just...

Oops, just remembered I'm supposed to be in the kitchen! Silly me. Let me move my laptop in there so I can respond while I cook, barefoot and pregnant, dreaming about new shoes and men's wallets stuffed with cash.... tall men, who treat me like crap. Because that's as shallow as my thoughts go as a woman.
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Seriously, the pregnant part is not required. In fact it is discouraged.

And since I seem to recall that you have mentioned that your culinary skills are lacking, no need to be in the kitchen cooking. Though if you do go in there, grab us a couple of beers.

Barefoot is ok.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm not baffled at all.

I'm aware of multiple meanings. You aren't.

You don't understand the issue.

I mentioned the details necessary to make it meaningful. They do not involve labels. I do see you're avoiding it. I can understand that; it's work to try to really understand a complex issue for the first time. But, you need to accept the decision you have made to avoid it.

Just because you can't or won't think beyond a label doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Quoting Lewis Carroll is not particularly clever. And it's ironic as hell. Look up his history, in real life, as a mathematician, in the context of "diversity."
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This is getting silly. I shouldn't have to point out again that you are the one who has said the word is meaningless.

MAKG1 said:
"Diversity" can mean a whole hell of a lot of other things as well. It's a buzzword, devoid of actual meaning.
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Despite your persistence, the word does possess meaning to everyone but you.

Baffled, confused, mired in self-induced perplexity. Pick whichever suits you. You are confused into thinking that every meaning has to be embraced at once in order for any meaning to prevail. That is confusion on your part. You are denying that there can be any agreed upon meaning at all. That is so foolish, that I refuse to communicate any further. I understand that this is all distraction because you never attempted to clarify the definition I was working with. You portrayed yourself as instantly outraged that I would assume a definition could even be found and used. But by some miracle 15 seconds and Google found a very workable definition to suit our purposes.
Feature

My use of Lewis Carroll pointed out that I'm not alone in seeing the absurdity you've embraced thinking it is an argument. Oh and btw, you keep using this word " ironic ". I don't think this word means what you think it means.

You can keep on with your protest that it is so complicated that only you understand it. But in all honesty, I think you have only exposed yourself as a fool. Either that, or you are someone who really wanted to kill the conversation. In that regard you were successful.
 
SkyDog58 said:
And since I seem to recall that you have mentioned that your culinary skills are lacking, no need to be in the kitchen cooking. Though if you do go in there, grab us a couple of beers.
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Yeah, I think subconsciously I just burn food so I can call the firemen to the house.
 
Rebel Lord said:
jesus... this thread, what the h have i created :confused:
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I have often wondered what it would be like if the OP had the option of closing their own threads. FB allows the OP to delete entire threads in Groups, that is a bit extreme.
But sometimes.....when people won't ______ , (<--link) you get this sort of thread.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
But you just...

Oops, just remembered I'm supposed to be in the kitchen! Silly me. Let me move my laptop in there so I can respond while I cook, barefoot and pregnant, dreaming about new shoes and men's wallets stuffed with cash.... tall men, who treat me like crap. Because that's as shallow as my thoughts go as a woman.
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For some reason, I'm reminded of Hidden Figures, which I just saw on blu-ray. GREAT film!
 
I don't know whether I should be annoyed that i just spent time reading 7 pages of this thread or entertained By reading 7 pages of this thread...

Btw, no way would I have guessed that this thread would go from the OP to a rather reasonable diversity discussion. If the thread keeps going, we got a shot at curing cancer!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Popo was closed due to burping
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They closed the police station down for gas? ;-)

dell30rb said:
How can that be, it was deleted. Now we're having fun conversations about diversity on the main forums.
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"I wouldn't call it fun, Bob." :p

All anyone needs to know about "diversity" is wherever you find someone lecturing about it, they'll have the very least group of non-politically diverse friends imaginable and definitely don't encourage actual diversity.

Being a true fan of diversity means you're all for having more serial killers around along with the normal folk.
 
WannFly said:
I want popcorn
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White or orange or caramel?

Or a mix for "true diversity"?

LOL!

I'm kinda partial to the white cheddar variety myself. ****es off the orange and caramel "diversity" crowd though. ;-)
 
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