Flight Review more than 2 hours

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by brien23, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

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    It’s funny that pro pilots flying 500 plus hours a year are required to have check rides every six months and annual recurrent training, yet weekend warriors flying 20 hours a year scoff at needing two hours of training every two years. :)
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I agree, but I'm not relying on a flight review to keep me above average, and frankly, I doubt it's making anyone that doesn't want to be above average become above average due to it's existence. :D
     
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  3. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    If you aren't trying to pinch the CFI, here's a different perspective. If you're going to do 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flight (minimum) you are basically asking for 2.5 hours minimum of the instructor's time. If it takes exactly 1 hour of ground, and 1 hour of flying, you still need to figure in a minimum 5 minute preflight, postflight, and hopefully 5-10 minutes of debriefing, IF you are perfect. Realistically, the CFI needs to block off 3 hours of his or her schedule for you, so you shouldn't be afraid to utilize that much time. I tell all my FR candidates to block off 3 hours minimum and brush up on the regs beforehand and if we get done faster, great. Because I'm a part-timer, with a real job, I charge by the block. If you schedule me to reserve three hours of my work, It'll be a three-hour charge, but I'll often not charge extra if we go over and I'm free after the scheduled time.

    I usually work scenarios during the ground portion to try and make sure they don't just regurgitate the regs, but can usefully apply them, and this can take a tad more time, but usually 1 hours is close to adequate for ground for those who have done their homework. Guys that don't do their homework 100% of the time need more time.
     
  4. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    The definitely should vary. I fly regularly, but rarely VFR. I've had a CFI that fully understood that. I was upfront and honest about it.

    We went over some new things, did the flying and were done. I don't go out and do steep turns and stalls, but I can do them. I typically fly IFR and stay away from the edges of the envelope.

    Someone that flies only 30 hours a year would mostly likely need more air time. Someone with a long break in flying might need more than one session.



    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
     
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  5. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I was a CFI when the FAA first started the BFR later to be FR , many pilots had some strange ideas of the regulations and basic flying ability and what they could do and what they could not. Nothing says it better than " You don't know what you don't know" does the FR help, YES and it's up to the CFI to make it work for you, not them.
     
  6. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    Is a decent 5 minute preflight possible? I admit, I'm far from perfect, and only have a couple hundred hours of flight time, but I figure engine start is usually about 30 minutes after I get to the plane, assuming no need to call for fuel or preheat.
     
  7. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    If it's a pilot that owns their own plane, they spend their own time to do the pre-flight before meeting up and I just need to check my necessary points, it's one thing. Even then, I consider watching the pre-flight a good thing to see if they are skipping anything important, or if they are at least paying lip-service to being thorough. Most of the time, yes, it's really more like 15-20 minutes on average, and we often go over a plan for the flight as well. That's why it's not very fair (IMO, ridiculous) to a CFI to try and force them to squeeze the whole thing into two hours for the minimum 1 hour of flight and 1 hour of "ground review of Part 91." That would be a glaring mis-application of 91.103, which we are supposed to have just reviewed.
     
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  8. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    My last flight review was 1.6 plus the ground. It was a good workout. Frankly I needed it. It is easy to get sloppy and imprecise.
     
  9. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    I fly 2-3 times a week minimum in a slow week and KNOW I make mistakes from time to time. It helps when you always fly as a crew of two. If you don't fly but twice a month, you don't know how sloppy you probably are, even if you are "good."
     
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  10. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Regulation: You must be able to not kill yourself in an airplane.
    Response from some pilots: YOU CAN’T MAKE ME!!!

    not pointing a finger at you, @Salty ...just showing why you’re right.
     
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  11. Ed Haywood

    Ed Haywood Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Over 30 years of flying, yep, plenty of times. I love to fly, and I only fly with CFI's who A) also love to fly, and B) are older and more experienced than me. No 22 year old epaulet-wearing time builders, thanks. When the CFI is done putting me through my paces, I usually think of a few extra things to practice. Sometimes I find a new aircraft and combine a BFR with a checkout.

    The notion of a CFI "taking advantage of you" for an extra half hour is laughable. Hey Mr High Roller CFI, don't spend that extra 20 bucks all in one place!
     
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  12. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Had my flight review this morning. 1.2 on the Hobbs, plus roughly 1.5 on the oral (mainly because we were both embellishing each topic with war stories). I looked back through my logbook and that’s been about avg over the years. I’ve never said anything about the time required for a review, it just has worked out that way on it’s own. Until this thread I’ve also never given it any thought.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  13. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Could be worse, you could spend FOUR hours on a flight review and the CFI had so much fun you nearly had to INJURE him to accept payment:)

    Flight review, plus unusual attitudes, stalls, spins and light aerobatics with a TON of ground over the usual 1 hour ground stuff plus another 2 for the aerobatic stuff than a little over an hour in the Pitts hangin' upside down. He competed in aerobatic competitions ... this was a TON of info, how to recover all kinds of crazy sitiations, and when he said, "Close your eyes and get ready to recover THIS" you knew it was going to be something exciting ... image below was my first aileron roll. My first spin recovery he laughed as I converted it from a left to a right spin over correcting:confused::confused: (those Pitts are very agile).
    IMG_0521.JPG
     
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  14. AeroLudite

    AeroLudite Pre-Flight

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    As a CFI I’ve always been more subtle about dealing with the individual who expects and verbalizes a desire for a 1 & 1 flight review.
    As we use the “discovery” flight to “sell” aviation and flight training, I use the flight review to rejuvenate the interest in and the pure joy of flying.
    By making it FUN!

    Turn the review into a pursuit of the $100 hamburger or buffet, and throw in some ATC communication, grass strip take off and landing, and an instrument approach or two. Not the drudgery of repeating the “check ride” with slow flight, stalls, and constant critique...droning around the pattern

    One such “review” turned into an instrument rating, m/e rating and commercial ticket...started out as a flight review, with a lunch at a fly-in grill and restaurant. Latest was a 30yr hiatus looking to get current has resulted in an instrument rating, and he’s decided to become a crop-duster as his retirement “hobby job”, doing what he wanted to do out of high school 40yrs ago... has a date to start and deposit made at Bainbridge.

    there’s more than one way to skin a cat...
     
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  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I used to fly charter with somebody who would do that. The same trip that everybody else did in 1.8-2.0 hours, she did in 2.5-2.6 consistently.
     
  16. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    gotta remember, some of the 20 hours a year pilots never leave the patterns at their home airport. Sometimes they go crazy and go 20 or 30 miles for a breakfast flight.
     
  17. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    I can't think of any I've undertaken that were only 1 and 1. If I'm not learning/demonstrating anything at any time, be it 0.1 or 3.1, I'm querying the CFI about what's up next. Who just sits in some hateful rental cessna at $200+/hr and gathers all of the fascinating life lessons doled out by the 21 year old wonder instructor? :D
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Check your PM please.
     
  19. WillFly4Food

    WillFly4Food Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ve actually come to looking forward to my flight reviews. I basically tell the CFI that I want to be challenged, and I usually learn a thing or two, or at the very least just have fun.
     
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  20. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    Isn't the idea to determine if a pilot is still competent on a very basic level to continue to exercise pilot privileges? So it takes what is takes to demonstrate basic competence with both aeronautical knowledge and designated flight skills. I usually try to do something fun during a FR, like maybe some short field grass strip work, or combine and IPC with a FR for a real workout day. I usually learn something new and useful each time. At least with my CFIs, the flight review or IPC is usually fixed cost when I fly in my plane, so it's no skin off my nose if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours in the air. We spend ground time as needed to ensure I'm still fresh with the FARs and other knowledge requirements. If you stay current, the ground instruction doesn't have to exceed the minimums. Late winter IPCs are where the most rust shows, as that is often a poor time for getting regular hours in frozen NY state.
     
  21. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don’t mind a little extra time in the flight portion, after all your flying. For the ground I do the flight review course on line before getting with the instructor.
     
  22. guzziguy

    guzziguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Trust me, It DOES happen. It might be rare, but we need to be careful to avoid these jokers.

    First and only time I encountered this was in Oregon.

    I scheduled a BFR with a local "CFI" in the Portland area. Upon arriving, it was very obvious at the outset during the ground portion that he did NOT know or understand the regs or had a plan at all on what to go over. Just random conversation and small talk.

    Personally, I consider a BFR an opportunity for ME to ask questions ALSO to clarify items for my own understanding.
    "You know, I've always wondered about...Can you explain this to me please?"

    His answer, multiple times was, "What do YOU think?"
    How do YOU spot a bullshitter?

    Next was the flying portion:
    It was a dumpster fire of a flight. He had no plan or idea of what he wanted to go over and instead just had me flying randomly. No steep turns, no stalls, nothing.
    Then he decides, "let's go to Salem for lunch."
    WTF?

    On the approach, my radio and transponder started acting up. If I remember correctly, he, at the last minute, said, "let's do a touch and go."
    Uhh, ok.
    Then this happened:
    My radio, transponder, and all other electrics died on climb out after the TnG. I later learned it was my alternator. As PIC and not knowing what the issue was, I decided to stay in the pattern (nordo) and was looking for light gun signals for when the tower would realize I wasn't departing and instead joining the DW. (and trying to remember: "Am I looking for a solid or flashing green light?")

    As we were in an actual (potential) emergency situation, I quickly discovered this "CFI" was less than useless to provide assistance or insight on what might be happening.

    We joined the DW and asked him if he had the salem tower in his phone (he did!). I told him to use his cell phone to call the tower while we were in the DW and we landed uneventfully.

    Turned out it was the alternator that went TU some time before and the battery had finally exhausted all its juice. OK, no emergency per se. Nice to know.

    After all this and personally witnessing my calm attitude (truly I was) and working the issue and getting us down safely, this guy had the nuts to say that he wasn't convinced of my skills and he wanted to do one more hour ("just one more hour, I promise").
    Are you ****ting me?

    I remained non-committal at that point and called my mechanic (cross thread from pilots v mechs thread?) who came and picked us up (we are good friends).

    Guess what?!
    Turns out my mech KNEW this particular "CFI" and had banned him from ever using his plane (mech is also a pilot) ever again. Turned out the mech had allowed this "CFI" to use his plane for fun but he ended up finding out that he was using his plane to give 'instruction' and charge for it without telling him and after the mech had specifically forbade it (he had also flown the plane at night which was also specifically forbidden).

    THEN, telling this story to my hangar neighbor, I discovered that my hangar neighbor used him as a CFII to get his IR. He had already spent an ungodly amount of money with this guy and had made no progress at all. This "CFI" kept NO RECORDS of the training that he had done and my friend had been with him for almost 6 months with nothing to show for it.

    This same friend then told me the story that a ground pounder at a local airport ALSO used this "CFI" to get his PPL but never even soloed. The groundpounder told my hangar neighbor that that particular "CFI" had NEVER sent ANYONE to a check ride....ever.
    milk milk milk milk
    In fact, this "CFI" on several occasions asked my hangar neighbor to drop him off at his next lesson by plane.

    Once we had successfully dumped this guy, my friend and I suspected that he was not a "CFI" at all, or at the very least maybe USED TO BE but was no longer certified/licensed. We played with the idea of reporting him to the FSDO to voice our suspicions but never ended up following through.

    Some have admonished me for 'testing' my CFIs before I hire them.
    Once bitten, twice shy I say.
    Those snakes ARE out there. Watch where you step.
     
  23. ksandrew

    ksandrew Pre-Flight

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    The worst BFR I ever had was a number years ago, caught in a tight and could not get the usual CFIs, found this fellow out of town who agreed to do it straight away.

    The first thing he had me do was call flight service for weather and winds aloft. then use his E6B to plan the flight, he would not let me use the ipad. I have commercial, IR since 1974 and a few thousand hours. I went along with it just needing a signature. During the flight he kept insisting that I was off course. I pointed out the magenta line on the MX20 and explained that the little airplane on the line was us. His reply was that he did not believe in these new fangled things. I got my BFR signed off and I have never seen him since. I often wonder if he really had his CFI.
    Life is a barrel of fun.

    Ken Andrew
     
  24. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    If you believe an hour flight review to too much, check out the Wings proficiency program.