File departure procedure?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by DesertNomad, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    Does it make sense to file a departure procedure like...

    KFTW HUBB9.TXK KMEM

    Or should I just file the waypoints in the DP directly?
     
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  2. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You're in Fort Worth and don't tell us locals?
     
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  3. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Now that we have many tools that tell us what SIDS and routing we are likely to get, my practice is to look that info up, and then file for it. And since FF sends you what to expect when you call for clearance, I have that already written down on my CRAFT, saving me from my horrid scribbles if that is what I'm given.

    And some local knowledge for ya on that routing. Depending on time of day and the activity at DFW, there is a small chance you'll get vectored over the top of the big airport... but also expect to get a significant scenic tour to the north or south depending on the flow.
     
  4. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    good question, I actually never thought to file a departure procedure. I always just assumed Air Traffic Control would decide what to give me

    Do you guys also file arrival procedures? I've heard of people filing to an initial approach fix..
     
  5. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    Once during training. Haven't since.
     
  6. mwagg737

    mwagg737 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not at the altitudes we typically fly at.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  7. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    I file whatever I do, and wait for "prepare to copy full route clearance".
     
  8. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    In other words, direct?
    (when mountains or large bodies of water aren't in the way)
     
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  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’ve filed the coded DP quite a few times and never had issues getting the clearance.
     
  10. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I always just file direct via foreflight and if they need me to do something else foreflight will usually pop up a notification of what to expect. Failing that the controller will tell you. Admittedly I don't fly in and out of airports that have DPs very often so there might be good reasons to do this at certain airports but unless I had a specific reason I wouldn't put anything extra in the flight plan unless I really wanted to fly it.
     
  11. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Out of curiosity, what's the value added in filing the DP itself? Does it just help for personal planning? I've always understood a SID to be primarily an ATC issued tool that they can elect to give for workload reasons
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I have reviewed applicable DPs and STARs as part of my planning on the expectation that they will be assigned by name or by individual routing instructions, but haven't found a good reason to include one in my filing. If it's not busy at the time and ATC is okay with a more direct routing and climb to cruise altitude, I don't see a reason to interfere by asking for something more complex.
     
  13. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Obstacle clearance. Makes sure ATC is on your same page.
     
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  14. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The places I go to seem to work differently. I can file any DP listed, going in my direction and shown as a previous route on FF or (fltplan.com) .... and half the time I will get cleared a different one.
    And; the route ATC will likely clear me via (as pops up on FF) is usually....ie 80% of the time, wrong.
    So I quit trying to guess, it was energy wasted - and don't file one.
     
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  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well a few reasons. The airfield (KOZR) is incredibly busy with IFR military student traffic. For efficiency sake, it helps to have everyone on a SID. ATC doesn’t ban radar departures there but unless sticking in the local GCA pattern most are going off on the SID. Second, obviously being a IFR student training base, doing a SID has important training value. Finally, we were all /U when I was there, so the SIDs were usually taking us to our first fix / NAVAID on the way to the enroute phase anyway.

    Ironically, KOZR is used as a SID filing example in the GP. Probably been in that FLIP for 50 years.

    FF6DDB46-B207-476F-8BBB-4C11D37CDA74.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  16. George Mohr

    George Mohr Line Up and Wait

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    I've found that filing a route that appears in Foreflight's "Routes" suggestion is best. Pick the route that most closely resembles your flight profile (i.e. Prop vs. Jet, altitudes, etc). I've never included a SID in the filing, but I did receive one in my expected route once (and also in the actual clearance).

    My understanding is that you will always get the SID repeated from ATC when providing your clearance, even if you file it. So for example you'll never hear "Cleared to Trenton, as filed" if there is a SID in the clearance. You'll get "Cleared to Trenton. ARSENEL FIVE departure, Wooly Transition, then as filed." Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
     
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  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    If you had some reason you wanted to fly that SID it may get them to assign it to you, but I doubt it at FTW or any airport in airspace that busy. You’re probably going to get whatever works for them. Same thing with filing the individual Wayponts on a SID.
     
  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    What’s GP? That’s a strange Class D. What’s the story with the airport being off Center in it?
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yup. That was their function when they were invented. Reduce verbiage
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    That was my thinking. I have found that ATC doesn't really give a rats A$$ what I file, and ends up giving me something else anyway, so why bother with the effort.
     
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  21. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Thanks, I guess I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that this was an ATC-issued thing and not really something a pilot could "request" or file for. As a side note, the "no DP" note in a flightplan is weaksauce.. if you can't fly a DP you shouldn't be filing IFR.
     
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    You aren’t wrong. You get the SID when getting Cleared As Filed even if you filed it because that’s the rules. Here’s the note in the Controllers book reminding them of that. AIM 5-2-6 d. tells you all about it

    NOTE−
    1. SIDs are excluded from “cleared as filed” procedures.
     
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  23. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    That's great. "Cessna 123 cleared as filed" but now you have to remember that the SID you filed was excluded from that
     
  24. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    I fly around lots of terrain and lots of R-type airspace, so I really try to plan a route, but just can't ever get "cleared as filed".

    Sometimes I get "cleared to XYZ via (some change) then as filed", but that's as much as I hope for.
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I’ve seen NO SIDS and NO STARS, but don’t recall seeing NO DP. I wouldn’t go so far as to say you shouldn’t file IFR off an airport that has no DP.
     
  26. George Mohr

    George Mohr Line Up and Wait

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    Right, which for me means there is no advantage (and this big disadvantage) in filing the SID. Just file the route you want and you'll get the SID if needed.
     
  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    If that happened you could fly the SID. But you wouldn’t have to. The point is, if they expect you to fly it, they have to say it, even if you filed it.
     
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  28. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Right, maybe I didn't state that right. I meant if you didn't have the proficiency to fly an instrument departure procedure then you probably shouldn't be flying on instruments anyway
     
  29. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    No, he's talking ATC's marching orders on reading your clearance. SIDs aren't going to be included in the "Cleared as filed" instruction, they will be a separate part.
     
  30. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Thanks, slow morning here for me!
     
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Ah, gotcha. Just not not knowing how to do one definitely is a you shouldn't be up there in the goo thang
     
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  32. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    I don’t see why one wouldn’t be proficient in flying a SID. Most of them are just vectors off the runway or if you’re doing an RNAV SID, just follow the magenta line. It’s just tracking and intercepting courses which you would be proficient in when you get your PPL. I never really understood the aversion to SIDs.
     
  33. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    This has been my experience operating around the DFW and Houston Bravos.

    Then once airborne and with the departure controller, highly likely to get radar vectored as they need, and an eventual "DIRECT" to a fix close to the destination if not the actual destination.
     
  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    I totally agree. When I did my IR training that was a big emphasis "if you don't feel comfortable or proficient then write 'no DP/SID' in your flight plan comments" .. how hard is it to follow a picture and a piece of text that says "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors"

    Then again.. people also struggle with following a localizer needle and not busting step down altitudes.

    But I digress. You don't need a magenta line for this stuff.
     
  35. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Wait until the people that file “No SID/STAR” still get one in their clearance. They don’t realize all that does is tell ATC they don’t have SID or STAR plate and in that case, ATC will just verbalize the SID or STAR.
     
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  36. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    DOD General Planning. It’s a basic flight planning for military pilots. The heart of it is how to fill out a DD-175 but there are a few other goodies that assist in planning / filing. A must if your a VIP pilot and trying to figure out what code to annotate on your FP. ;)

    As far as Cairns, I don’t recall the exact reason for the offset but I believe the rumor was to encapsulate Lowe, Knox and Hanchey towers all under Cairns for easier coordination.
     
  37. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    Someone recently got all out of sorts trying to read back a clearance that involved a VOR radial.. it must have been a verbal SID. I wasn't paying very close attention as I was still on the ground getting the ATIS, but this poor guy was obviously struggling with part of the readback
     
  38. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    Like this guy...

     
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  39. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yes. See above!
     
  40. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ...especially since when the controller reads "No DP/SID" the pilot might just get, "climbing left turn to heading 245 to altitude 4,000, intercept VOR X radial 45 then expect radar vectors" to take down in her best clearance shorthand.