F16 vs Cessna 150 collision

Velocity173 said:
Well that topic is for a whole other thread. Fact we have airspace (MTRs / alert areas) where military aircraft come in close proximity to civilian aircraft. They're completely within regs to operate there.

I'll give you a perfect example. About a year ago I was sitting in a field (LZ) waiting to pick up a patient. While looking down at my GPS I heard a huge rumble above. Actually thought my engine exploded for a second then I realized it was a jet on the MTR. Few seconds later at my 2 o'clock I picked up dash 2 doing 400 + kts and maybe 400 ft pulling vapor off the wings. So close I could make out which model Hornet he was. Now, if this occurred 10 mins later, I would have had a face full of F-18.

Do I chock this up to negligence on the pilots? Do I look at it as hot dogging in "my" airspace? Why can't they just do all their flying in the simulator and save the real stuff for war? I don't believe any of that nonsense because I honestly believe what they're doing is honing their skills. I don't mind sharing the airspace for activity that's necessary for national defense. I would rather share the airspace that allows that activity, than to have more restricted airspace that denies my entry.
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Ditto....+1.....Amen......
 
Velocity173 said:
Well that topic is for a whole other thread. Fact we have airspace (MTRs / alert areas) where military aircraft come in close proximity to civilian aircraft. They're completely within regs to operate there.

I'll give you a perfect example. About a year ago I was sitting in a field (LZ) waiting to pick up a patient. While looking down at my GPS I heard a huge rumble above. Actually thought my engine exploded for a second then I realized it was a jet on the MTR. Few seconds later at my 2 o'clock I picked up dash 2 doing 400 + kts and maybe 400 ft pulling vapor off the wings. So close I could make out which model Hornet he was. Now, if this occurred 10 mins later, I would have had a face full of F-18.

Do I chock this up to negligence on the pilots? Do I look at it as hot dogging in "my" airspace? Why can't they just do all their flying in the simulator and save the real stuff for war? I don't believe any of that nonsense because I honestly believe what they're doing is honing their skills. I don't mind sharing the airspace for activity that's necessary for national defense. I would rather share the airspace that allows that activity, than to have more restricted airspace that denies my entry.
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Good post- good information.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well that topic is for a whole other thread. Fact we have airspace (MTRs / alert areas) where military aircraft come in close proximity to civilian aircraft. They're completely within regs to operate there.

I'll give you a perfect example. About a year ago I was sitting in a field (LZ) waiting to pick up a patient. While looking down at my GPS I heard a huge rumble above. Actually thought my engine exploded for a second then I realized it was a jet on the MTR. Few seconds later at my 2 o'clock I picked up dash 2 doing 400 + kts and maybe 400 ft pulling vapor off the wings. So close I could make out which model Hornet he was. Now, if this occurred 10 mins later, I would have had a face full of F-18.

Do I chock this up to negligence on the pilots? Do I look at it as hot dogging in "my" airspace? Why can't they just do all their flying in the simulator and save the real stuff for war? I don't believe any of that nonsense because I honestly believe what they're doing is honing their skills. I don't mind sharing the airspace for activity that's necessary for national defense. I would rather share the airspace that allows that activity, than to have more restricted airspace that denies my entry.
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You're missing the point. If this guy was on an IR, he should have been communicating with ATC. So there are really three possibilities, all of which point to negligence:
1. He wasn't communicating with ATC, which is against the regs.
2. He was communicating with ATC, but ATC didn't inform him of the traffic conflict.
3. He was communicating with ATC, ATC informed him of the traffic conflict, and he took no action or insufficient action to resolve the conflict.

If he was on a VR, not required to be communicating with ATC, it'd be a different story. But even then, if you're traveling at 420 kts, you should be communicating with ATC to avoid exactly these types of situations.

United 736?
Capital Airlines 300?
Hughes 706?
 
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timwinters said:
Oh, I don't know, Jesse...

He was just stating what we all know is inevitable...and what has already started...and what many of us loathe.

He actually said a lot with very few words, far from useless, rather astutely succinct.

Tim,
Who understands the difference between valid opinion and blind useless speculation.
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:thumbsup:
 
frcabot said:
You're missing the point. If this guy was on an IR, he should have been communicating with ATC. So there are really three possibilities, all of which point to negligence:
1. He wasn't communicating with ATC, which is against the regs.
2. He was communicating with ATC, but ATC didn't inform him of the traffic conflict.
3. He was communicating with ATC, ATC informed him of the traffic conflict, and he took no action or insufficient action to resolve the conflict.
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Key word in bold, underlined and in italics.
Edit to enlarge font for key word
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
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No...going out of their way to find fault or extra where it may not exist just to make an example. Finding someone not-guilty on all charges and then discharging them anyway just because, etc. There are a few examples of exonerating evidence being barred from introduction into a court martial just to get a conviction, etc.
 
mikeinbama said:
Key word in bold, underlined and in italics.
Edit to enlarge font for key word
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Even if he wasn't, he still should have been communicating with ATC even if not "required." You can be negligent even if you're not technically violating the law or regulations. If you're traveling at 420 kts you should be communicating with ATC no matter what. It's too early to tell what exactly happened here, but I suspect there was negligence somewhere -- either from ATC or the military pilot. A mid-air collision, by definition, means one or more people were doing something improperly / without taking the necessary precautions.
 
I guess we can't listen with our radios to military ops in active MOA's?
 
From the WCIV website: (my highlights for emphasis)


"The F-16 pilot, identified as Maj. Aaron Johnson of the 20th Fighter Wing from the Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, survived after ejecting safely. He was flying a solo practice mission to Charleston some 2,000 to 3,000 feet in the sky, talking to air traffic control, when the collision happened, Shaw Air Force Base Col. Stephen F. Jost said.
The collision was reported about 11 a.m. near the Lewisfield Plantation off Old Highway 52, about 30 miles north of Charleston. Debris is scattered over about 7 miles.
Berkeley County Coroner and Rescue Squad Capt. Bill Salisbury said they have found most of the jet but only parts of the Cessna and have yet to find the two people who were on board. He said they recovered identifying information about the private pilot and passenger but declined to release their names. He said it appears the private plane was heading to Myrtle Beach.
"From what I understand from a witness that the plane was, the military plane struck the other small aircraft broad side," Salisbury said.
Jost said Johnson, an experienced F-16 pilot, was on a practice mission flying on instrument controls when the crash happened. Salisbury said Johnson landed on Medway Plantation, as did most of the jet, which was absent munitions.
A couple of men found Johnson and drove him to a nearby ambulance that took him to Joint Charleston Air Force Base for evaluation. Jost said it's typical for pilots to suffer some injuries during ejection.
Jost said he expects Johnson to return to Shaw by Tuesday evening.
Officials said debris has been found across 7.3 miles of woods and swampland. Much of the terrain is forest and swamp, only reachable by dirt and gravel roads. Police have blocked off several roads in the area."

Terrible. The 150 was heading NNE probably. No public identification of the 150 crew yet- still folks are on edge thinking they know who it is.

Sound like the F16 was doing what was expected, according to base commander. I'd hate to be the pilot right now, dealing with his thoughts.
 
DaveA said:
From the WCIV website: (my highlights for emphasis)


"The F-16 pilot, identified as Maj. Aaron Johnson of the 20th Fighter Wing from the Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, survived after ejecting safely. He was flying a solo practice mission to Charleston some 2,000 to 3,000 feet in the sky, talking to air traffic control, when the collision happened, Shaw Air Force Base Col. Stephen F. Jost said.
The collision was reported about 11 a.m. near the Lewisfield Plantation off Old Highway 52, about 30 miles north of Charleston. Debris is scattered over about 7 miles.
Berkeley County Coroner and Rescue Squad Capt. Bill Salisbury said they have found most of the jet but only parts of the Cessna and have yet to find the two people who were on board. He said they recovered identifying information about the private pilot and passenger but declined to release their names. He said it appears the private plane was heading to Myrtle Beach.
"From what I understand from a witness that the plane was, the military plane struck the other small aircraft broad side," Salisbury said.
Jost said Johnson, an experienced F-16 pilot, was on a practice mission flying on instrument controls when the crash happened. Salisbury said Johnson landed on Medway Plantation, as did most of the jet, which was absent munitions.
A couple of men found Johnson and drove him to a nearby ambulance that took him to Joint Charleston Air Force Base for evaluation. Jost said it's typical for pilots to suffer some injuries during ejection.
Jost said he expects Johnson to return to Shaw by Tuesday evening.
Officials said debris has been found across 7.3 miles of woods and swampland. Much of the terrain is forest and swamp, only reachable by dirt and gravel roads. Police have blocked off several roads in the area."

Terrible. The 150 was heading NNE probably. No public identification of the 150 crew yet- still folks are on edge thinking they know who it is.

Sound like the F16 was doing what was expected, according to base commander. I'd hate to be the pilot right now, dealing with his thoughts.
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So this confirms that the Cessna had the right of way. So either atc didnt advise of the conflict or the pilot didn't take appropriate action to avoid the collision. Rip Cessna pilot and pax.
 
timwinters said:
I don't know squat about military aircraft but I too find it surprising that a 150 can knock one out of the sky...and apparently rip an engine out of it (assume an engine was ripped out of it since an engine was laying against a travel trailer with no other debris around).
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The 'popular' picture shows a burner can and exhaust nozzle up against a trailer. There's nothing to show that the entire engine was 'ripped out', only that these parts happened to land here and were photographed after the F-16 impacted the ground out of control. It's entirely possible that it was thrown here after breaking up on impact with the ground.

Nauga,
and his footprint
 
frcabot said:
So this confirms that the Cessna had the right of way. So either atc didnt advise of the conflict or the pilot didn't take appropriate action to avoid the collision. Rip Cessna pilot and pax.
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It is also possible (though unlikely) that the Cessna's transponder was inop or not switched on. RIP to the peeps regardless.
 
Flying Viking said:
It is also possible (though unlikely) that the Cessna's transponder was inop or not switched on. RIP to the peeps regardless.
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Would still show up on primary radar though, no? Just would have inaccurate altitude info.
 
steingar said:
If an F16 can get snagged by a 150 in the big sky why couldn't a foreign government, expecting an air attack, just send lots of ultralights aloft? What's the prevent the multimillion dollar fighter jets from blundering into them?
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Lot of tactical difficulties there.

Such as how well you know the time of the attack, and whether you can maintain the appropriate umbrella. If you know that the USAF is going to attack a target at 1500 local, you can deploy your "manned aerial mines". But if all you have is a window, you're going to need to arrange waves of ultralights and pilots to cover a longer period.

Ideally, you would concentrate the manned mines along the post-probable approach paths, but you'd need to program their nav systems prior to takeoff to give them their positions to orbit. With the US's ability at electronic warfare, you'll have little opportunity to make/change such programming in flight.

How many would be needed? Hard to say. It'd probably take hundreds of vehicles in flight and it's still just a random chance that one's location might eventually coincide with the flight path of an attacking aircraft.

Then, too, you'd need infrastructure to support the effort...dozens, if not hundreds of ultralights, the pilots to fly them, etc. And the pilots will have to be night-trained, as that's when the US is most likely to attack.

And if the truth be known, the ultralights would STILL be small targets to hit. It'd take a pretty dense cloud to produce more than one or two random impacts.

A better approach might be machinery on the ground designed to project high-explosive projectiles with proximity fuses into the path of any attacking aircraft. Anti-aircraft artillery, in fact. Cheap to manufacture, easy to disperse to make pre-emptive strikes harder, most of the crews can be just semi-trained.

A 100-year old technology might be of use, too: Barrage balloons. Dissuades the attacking pilots from coming in low.

Ron Wanttaja
 
flightwriter said:
Not too far. The TFR is centered 4nm SSW from GINNE, which is adjacent to the accident location initially reported.
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If the debris footprint is really 7 miles long the main impact point and the point where the collision occurred are probably some distance apart.

Nauga,
and a dose of reality
 
txflyer said:
I guess we can't listen with our radios to military ops in active MOA's?
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You'd need a UHF radio, and knowledge of the waypoints and other references the military uses.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Has anyone found anything on LiveATC from the event? I know this wouldn't not relieve anyone of responsibility to see and avoid, but I use flight following almost every time I fly. I have had some close calls and have had some good point outs by ATC out here in the Colorado Springs and Denver areas. I use it all the time when I leave the pattern, even if just maneuvering northeast of the airport. Just a couple weeks ago, I had them vector me around for a C-17 coming through the area and descending through my altitude. We get fighters down here frequently too. Flight following is a nice backup to assist with the visual search.

Carl
 
"The [Cessna] pilot was communicating with the control tower and had announced his departure.

Lewis said it is believed the small plane was headed to Myrtle Beach, and had taken off only moments before the collision."

Bonus points to whoever can locate audio from liveatc. Edit: actually it appears that the Charleston area is not covered by liveatc. Bummer.
 
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ROTR - Slower aircraft has the right of way. F16 has radar and should have seen somehting, even as small as a 150.
 
nauga said:
The 'popular' picture shows a burner can and exhaust nozzle up against a trailer. There's nothing to show that the entire engine was 'ripped out', only that these parts happened to land here and were photographed after the F-16 impacted the ground out of control. It's entirely possible that it was thrown here after breaking up on impact with the ground.

Nauga,
and his footprint
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Yes, one pic showed the part of the nozzle assy by the trailer though another shows the core engine ripped free.

cessna.jpg
 
Flying Viking said:
It is also possible (though unlikely) that the Cessna's transponder was inop or not switched on. RIP to the peeps regardless.
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With the fact now known that the Viper was in contact with ATC, right now this is my best guess -no xpdr signal from the 150.
 
The F-16 has radar so they can "see" targets. Whereas when we fly on instruments in visual conditions with a safety pilot. I guess the cockpit workload was to high for the Major. Condolences to the family and friends of the poor 150 pilot that didn't have a chance in this situation.
 
Fearless Tower said:
With the fact now known that the Viper was in contact with ATC, right now this is my best guess -no xpdr signal from the 150.
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That's an unlikely assumption. Far more likely that atc or maj screwed the pooch. Besides, f16 radar doesn't depend on transponder or enemies could simply turn their transponders off.
 
Odd, because in that same area I had a "mishap" with Charleston approach on flight following. I was headed south and they handed me off north after I reminded them I was them (after beginning to lose them).

It actually has seemed to happen a lot. A reminder for me that flight following is just a "when possible" service.
 
I guess the next big question is was the 150 on ATC's radar screen and did they issue a traffic alert to anyone?

I don't know that area but it's not unusual in some areas in the midwest to have ATC not be able to get you on radar at 2000-3000AGL.
 
frcabot said:
So this confirms that the Cessna had the right of way. So either atc didnt advise of the conflict or the pilot didn't take appropriate action to avoid the collision. Rip Cessna pilot and pax.
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Nothing about this guarantees that the Cessna had the right of way. In fact, depending on which way the Cessna was hit broadside, it might be absolutely the C-150s "fault" if the Cessna was headed one direction and the F-16 was to their right. Those jets are moving fast, and if the pilot is looking one direction for traffic called out by ATC, he might not see something on the other side of the aircraft in time. One could argue that with two people on board, there were twice as many eyes on the Cessna and more chance of avoidance.

I was flying near Breckenridge, TX doing a photo mission and this T-38 blasted pretty close to us. I saw him coming - which is why I was able to snap the pictures, but the T-38s are VERY, VERY hard to spot.

11026596_10207306729212700_7851676148127473576_n.jpg


11539629_10207306730452731_2389410080098304761_n.jpg


11659279_10207306730732738_1780149886546927403_n.jpg
 
frcabot said:
Actually collisions with military aircraft have resulted large settlements / verdicts against the US military. Would probably have a cause of action under the Federal Tort Claims Act.
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I remember a civilian plane in IMC, some military plane basically cut the thing in half, fatality to the civilian, with it's wing, told the victims family to pound sand and even went after them for damages to the fighters wing, which also had blood of the pilot on it. Think it was a few years back.
 
SkyDog58 said:
...another shows the core engine ripped free. ..
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That looks to me more like the core is in a major debris field, not "ripped free..." by the midair as was questioned earlier. Consistent with remaining in the airplane until ground impact or any number of other possibilities.

Nauga,
forensically
 
SbestCFII said:
F16 has radar and should have seen somehting, even as small as a 150.
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What assurance do we have at this point that the radar was on and functioning? You think an A/A radar is on the F-16 equivalent of an MEL?

Nauga,
and his lead nose
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
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That was one of my questions.
 
jesse said:
Striking a 1600 lb object in the air is a problem...fighter jet or not...If you built the fighter to handle that impact and be able to fly away it'd be too heavy to ever leave the ground.
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Not disagreeing, just pointing out another perspective. A Kansas ANG F-16 hit a tower guy wire and managed to land safely. The aircraft was returned to service. There is video out there somewhere of the wire strike.

Of course wire is not an aircraft but at least one F-16 has downed a light aircraft and landed safely. At least in this case the F-16 pilot lived through it even if the other guys didn't.
 
So did anyone else bother to listen to the press conference?

I did.

The F16 was on an IFR plan, following radar vectors for the approach to KCHS. Altitude was not known by the folks giving the press conference, but it was stated that he should have been between 2 and 3 thousand feet. The Cessna was off of Berkeley County, VFR, and had announced his departure, but no indication he was talking to approach.

We don't know whether the Cessna was squawking altitude, but we do know that the ceiling was 3500 to 4000 scattered at the time, with CB building in the vicinity. The Cessna was "T-boned" according to the officials.

Y'all can speculate all you want, but I'm not ready to pin this on either one at this point. If you're moving at 250 knots, its awful hard to see and react when the bogey is a 150.

Perhaps someone can find the audio archive around the time to see what the conversation from ATC was and whether traffic was called.
 
nauga said:
What assurance do we have at this point that the radar was on and functioning? You think an A/A radar is on the F-16 equivalent of an MEL?

Nauga,
and his lead nose
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About the same assurance we have that the Cessna had its xpdr on and was working.
 
frcabot said:
Even if he wasn't, he still should have been communicating with ATC even if not "required." You can be negligent even if you're not technically violating the law or regulations. If you're traveling at 420 kts you should be communicating with ATC no matter what. It's too early to tell what exactly happened here, but I suspect there was negligence somewhere -- either from ATC or the military pilot. A mid-air collision, by definition, means one or more people were doing something improperly / without taking the necessary precautions.
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No, the F16 follows their orders and military procedure. Radar can paint them, if they're high enough.

In this case, they were talking with ATC, so the point is moot. We're just lucky that it wasn't a commercial airliner full of pax.
 
wsuffa said:
So did anyone else bother to listen to the press conference?



I did.
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Of course not. It's all a big govt conspiracy, don't ya know? KILL general aviation in America while depleting the fleet of F-16s to justify the need for more Joint Strike Fighters!

I'm honestly surprised that some tin foil hat isn't blaming this on Jade Helm.
 
wsuffa said:
So did anyone else bother to listen to the press conference?

I did.

The F16 was on an IFR plan, following radar vectors for the approach to KCHS. Altitude was not known by the folks giving the press conference, but it was stated that he should have been between 2 and 3 thousand feet. The Cessna was off of Berkeley County, VFR, and had announced his departure, but no indication he was talking to approach.

We don't know whether the Cessna was squawking altitude, but we do know that the ceiling was 3500 to 4000 scattered at the time, with CB building in the vicinity. The Cessna was "T-boned" according to the officials.

Y'all can speculate all you want, but I'm not ready to pin this on either one at this point. If you're moving at 250 knots, its awful hard to see and react when the bogey is a 150.

Perhaps someone can find the audio archive around the time to see what the conversation from ATC was and whether traffic was called.
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My question is simple. If the F-16 was on vectors, he was on some bodies radar, why didn't they see the 150?

Are the new radar so poor that they must have transponder pings to see the target?

I hope this does not reveal another military pilot that was heads down in the cockpit hoping the controller will save his butt.
 
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