F16 vs Cessna 150 collision

Nothing wrong with speculation but to place fault on anyone this early is irresponsible. A lot of overreacting to an event that rarely occurs in the NAS. As busy as our airspace is, these things will happen from time to time. I don't shake my head and wonder why the technology didn't prevent this, I just accept the risks involved in aviation and realize nothing can prevent this 100 % of the time.

We have no clue what mode (IFR,VFR,MOA,MTR) the F-16 was operating. As I said, I suspect IR-18. In that case he is separated from other IFR traffic. He could have easily been receiving traffic in the C-150. No way of knowing if the C-150 even showed up on CHS radar or even if that traffic call would prevent a collision at those speeds.

If the other possibility that I suspect (VR route), the pilot wouldn't be talking to ATC. I "worked" 1040/1041 traffic just done the road from this accident. Unless they're popping off to come to the air station, they're not talking to anyone. Not that it would matter anyway. At 500 ft and 500 kts in Class G, you're not going to get much help from ATC. It's just the nature of flying along a VR MTR. We all need to look out for each other.
 
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MikeELP said:
The article says that the NTSB was doing the investigation, but then handed it over to the Air Force.

I'm not familiar with military/civilian mid-air investigations. Is that normal? :dunno:
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Yes. Typically the NTSB doesn't have the clearance to sift through the records or watch the video from the fighters so the USAF does it, then shares the unclassified stuff with NTSB.

Before anyone gets going on "yeah, like the USAF would ever tell us when someone screwed up..." - I have had several friends completely hung out to dry by the USAF accident and safety investigation boards. It's not an "all in the family" type thing when it comes to accident investigations with today's USAF.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, blow up thousand dollar ultralights with million dollar missiles. The American Way all right.
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good grief.

unlikely they'd use a missile on one. :rolleyes2:

(btw - do you know what a sidewinder unit cost is?)
 
It sure does not take long before a tragedy ends up resulting in a ****ing contest on PoA. :rolleyes2:
 
While I'm certainly sorry for the family of the 150 crew (dont know if 1 or 2 souls on board yet) I can't even imagine the feelings of the F16 pilot at this time....numbed I'm sure, but what will tomorrow bring to this guy in terms of emotion? It's one thing to be involved in a battlefield scenario, but when you're involved with such a thing as this, and seeing the faces and families after the fact...well, there's nothing that prepares you for that, in my experience.

Word on the street down there is the crew is father & son....horrible if true...
 
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steingar said:
If an F16 can get snagged by a 150 in the big sky why couldn't a foreign government, expecting an air attack, just send lots of ultralights aloft? What's the prevent the multimillion dollar fighter jets from blundering into them? They have to have their own airspace here, and apparently don't have the ability to sense and avoid.
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That could work.....once. But it assumes a foreign entity can round up enough light aircraft (and pilots) and do so undetected.

Reality is, intel would identify the threat in advance and fly around it. Worst case, you might lose one F-16 and then, again, fly around the threat.

The F-16 pilot is likely much more on the alert for potential midair threats in a hostile area than he might be flying around in CONUS.
 
.....
 
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We had a briefing with Seymour Johnson about MACA - Mid Air Collision Avoidance. They said these types of events are very rare if you're using a transponder because all the military aircraft are getting those signals. Unfortunately very rare is not never.

If you have any time to react, dive. Military pilots flying high performance aircraft are trained to climb.

Big Sky wasn't big enough. My condolences to the family.
 
EvilEagle said:
Before anyone gets going on "yeah, like the USAF would ever tell us when someone screwed up..." - I have had several friends completely hung out to dry by the USAF accident and safety investigation boards. It's not an "all in the family" type thing when it comes to accident investigations with today's USAF.
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Same for the Army as well.
 
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
 
Bad deal all around. The C-150 was just putt-puttin along (what else can it do?) and the F-16 comes along and wipes it out? So far looks like it. Scary. Will be interesting to read the preliminary report,,,
 
No excuse. As I posted on Facebook - if an F16 can avoid enemy fire and do advanced surveillance, there is no excuse for one accidentally colliding with a Cessna 150 in the air.

No excuse. The Air Force should be ashamed that they allowed this to happen.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
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Yes. The board goes through the process of assigning blame (collateral board). They also provide evidence and recommendations to prevent an accident from happening again in the future (safety board). Depending on the results of the collateral board, the pilot could be FEBd and lose their wings. Just depends on if negligence is involved or not.

Not sure of any board that would hide facts to protect their own. If anything, like Evil said, they're going to be looking for someone to burn. Miramar F-18 accident a few years back comes to mind.
 
I don't know squat about military aircraft but I too find it surprising that a 150 can knock one out of the sky...and apparently rip an engine out of it (assume an engine was ripped out of it since an engine was laying against a travel trailer with no other debris around).
 
SkyHog said:
No excuse. As I posted on Facebook - if an F16 can avoid enemy fire and do advanced surveillance, there is no excuse for one accidentally colliding with a Cessna 150 in the air.

No excuse. The Air Force should be ashamed that they allowed this to happen.
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I'd have to say that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on POA. You have no clue of the circumstances in this accident but yet you're pointing blame.

Scott O Grady and many others sure didn't avoid enemy fire. I guess they're all substandard pilots??? Kind of hard to avoid something that 1. You can't see or 2. Have very little warning of. You seriously believe this pilot could've avoided the aircraft in question but chose to hit it? As if he always wanted to punch out of a crippled jet and compress his spine or break bones. Sounds like fun.

This is a tragic accident. Unless someone can point to specific evidence that suggests this pilot intentionally wanting to hit this aircraft, I've got to believe this is unfortunate result of military training mixing with civilian aircraft.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
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That's what I was wondering. Wrong choice of words if not.
 
timwinters said:
I don't know squat about military aircraft but I too find it surprising that a 150 can knock one out of the sky...and apparently rip an engine out of it (assume an engine was ripped out of it since an engine was laying against a travel trailer with no other debris around).
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Striking a 1600 lb object in the air is a problem...fighter jet or not...If you built the fighter to handle that impact and be able to fly away it'd be too heavy to ever leave the ground.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd have to say that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on POA. You have no clue of the circumstances in this accident but yet you're pointing blame.

Scott O Grady and many others sure didn't avoid enemy fire. I guess they're all substandard pilots??? Kind of hard to avoid something that 1. You can't see or 2. Have very little warning of. You seriously believe this pilot could've avoided the aircraft in question but chose to hit it? As if he always wanted to punch out of a crippled jet and compress his spine or break bones. Sounds like fun.

This is a tragic accident. Unless someone can point to specific evidence that suggests this pilot intentionally wanting to hit this aircraft, I've got to believe this is unfortunate result of military training mixing with civilian aircraft.
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Of course it wasn't intentional. Don't be daft, or pull the "I'm so offended, you owe me an apology" card.

Inexcusable does not mean intentional.
 
Velocity173 said:
This is a tragic accident. Unless someone can point to specific evidence that suggests this pilot intentionally wanting to hit this aircraft, I've got to believe this is unfortunate result of military training mixing with civilian aircraft.
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If this didn't happen in an MOA - which it appears it did not - perhaps the military needs to re-analyze its training and operations when their pilots are in OUR (civilian) airspace.
 
Since joining the ranks of LE! I never call accidents, accidents. I refer to them as COLLISIONS. Doubt this was an accident. Someone messed up. Avoidable.
 
tmyers said:
What did you fly in the Air Force Nick?
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Ah, so we have moved on from the "I'm so offended you guys, really, I'm so offended" tactic to the "You're not an expert in this specific type of airplane so you have no valid opinion" tactic instead.

Touche. No one but an F16 pilot could possibly understand what See and Avoid means...
 
frcabot said:
And the Navy.
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Not really. The Navy and Marine Coros probably do the better job at shielding their people from the court of public opinion.

Don't get me wrong, if you royally screw the pooch out of negligence, your career is toast, but I have seen the Navy (and Marines) do a better job than the other services with keeping it in house.
 
Looks like they have a TFR over the site now.

I see some IR and VR MTRs just North of the crash site. Let's say that VR route has an altitude block of 1500-200' AGL, the jet has to transition from altitude or base to enter the MTR. That may be done while or after they cancel any 'radar services', down to 'see and avoid'.

That's how it could easily happen in airspace that wasn't yet in a military training route. He could of came off a route and was still getting setup with approach for recovery.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not really. The Navy and Marine Coros probably do the better job at shielding their people from the court of public opinion.

Don't get me wrong, if you royally screw the pooch out of negligence, your career is toast, but I have seen the Navy (and Marines) do a better job than the other services with keeping it in house.
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I know plenty of USN pilots who got raw deals on command investigations and AMBs for issues that were arguably not their fault.
 
NTSB confirming there were 2 souls aboard the 150- rumored to be father & son. Locals in the area are holding their collective breath because they're well known in the community and also rumored to be based at KMKS...they think the bulk of the 150 is in the Cooper River at this point.
 
SkyHog said:
Ah, so we have moved on from the "I'm so offended you guys, really, I'm so offended" tactic to the "You're not an expert in this specific type of airplane so you have no valid opinion" tactic instead.

Touche. No one but an F16 pilot could possibly understand what See and Avoid means...
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Perhaps the F16 pilot has a better understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the F16 than most people.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does hanging their own out to dry equate to assigning blame or responsibility where it belongs rather than closing ranks and hiding the truth?
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The Coast Guard has a record in recent years at pursuing criminal charges against their own personnel in an attempt to deflect blame away from higher authority. The case against the Petty Officer in San Diego that killed someone a few years ago on the 4th of July was a good example. The kid royally screwed up, but the charges against him were an attempt to deflect blame away from his unit which had a large degree of responsibility.

There was also a case around the same time where an H-60J crashed doing some low lever jackassery by the aircraft commander. The copilot was the only survivor, but the USCG was pressing to charge him (not the pilot flying) with manslaughter. That ridiculous case was fortunately dismissed.
 
frcabot said:
I know plenty of USN pilots who got raw deals on command investigations and AMBs for issues that were arguably not their fault.
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But they were command investigations -typically not aired in public. That is what I am referring to.
 
SkyHog said:
Ah, so we have moved on from the "I'm so offended you guys, really, I'm so offended" tactic to the "You're not an expert in this specific type of airplane so you have no valid opinion" tactic instead.

Touche. No one but an F16 pilot could possibly understand what See and Avoid means...
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Wow, all that assumption from a simple question. You must be a friggin Kreskin to know what I am thinking all the way from Colorado.
 
timwinters said:
Hmmm...the TFR as depicted on ForeFlight is centered well south of where everyone is saying it occurred.
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Not too far. The TFR is centered 4nm SSW from GINNE, which is adjacent to the accident location initially reported.
 
EdFred said:
If this didn't happen in an MOA - which it appears it did not - perhaps the military needs to re-analyze its training and operations when their pilots are in OUR (civilian) airspace.
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Well that topic is for a whole other thread. Fact we have airspace (MTRs / alert areas) where military aircraft come in close proximity to civilian aircraft. They're completely within regs to operate there.

I'll give you a perfect example. About a year ago I was sitting in a field (LZ) waiting to pick up a patient. While looking down at my GPS I heard a huge rumble above. Actually thought my engine exploded for a second then I realized it was a jet on the MTR. Few seconds later at my 2 o'clock I picked up dash 2 doing 400 + kts and maybe 400 ft pulling vapor off the wings. So close I could make out which model Hornet he was. Now, if this occurred 10 mins later, I would have had a face full of F-18.

Do I chock this up to negligence on the pilots? Do I look at it as hot dogging in "my" airspace? Why can't they just do all their flying in the simulator and save the real stuff for war? I don't believe any of that nonsense because I honestly believe what they're doing is honing their skills. I don't mind sharing the airspace for activity that's necessary for national defense. I would rather share the airspace that allows that activity, than to have more restricted airspace that denies my entry.
 
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