"...expect higher in 10 minutes."

KE5BM

KE5BM

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 15, 2023
Messages
481
Location
Cape Cod, MA
Display Name
Ross
Home Airfield
KHYA
I live near a Class D field. At least close enough to be able to hear the tower from home. Fortunately, it's a field that's slow enough they're usually talking on all frequencies so I get to hear clearance delivery. Something I hear on nearly every clearance that I'm curious about and it just happened a minute ago.

"Maintain runway heading, climb and maintain 3000, expect higher in 10 minutes."

I've never once heard nor seen an IFR aircraft on it's way to the FLs hold such a low altitude for such a long time. So for the controllers, is this just a generic placeholder or is there actually a time that an IFR aircraft would have to hang out at 3000 burning all that gas and being so close to the ground (and as is the case here today) be in the soup?
 
I'm not a controller, but have heard the "higher in 10 minutes" thing often enough. Usually used when there is conflicting traffic and usually higher is given far sooner than 10 minutes (in my limited experience).
 
3000 is the altitude that gets them “into the system” somehow…radar coverage, radio contact with approach, or whatever criteria are necessary. Once that’s established, they’re cleared toward their final altitude (and route), usually sooner than 10 minutes.

“Expect higher in 10 minutes” says that 3000 won’t be their final altitude, and gives them a specific time to make the climb in the event of a communication failure.
 
KE5BM said:
I've never once heard nor seen an IFR aircraft on it's way to the FLs hold such a low altitude for such a long time.
Click to expand...
They won't. It's a mostly generic placeholder which is supposed to account for the possible loss of communications - the "expected" altitude in 91.185(c)(2).
 
MauleSkinner said:
“Expect higher in 10 minutes” says that 3000 won’t be their final altitude, and gives them a specific time to make the climb in the event of a communication failure.
Click to expand...
midlifeflyer said:
They won't. It's a mostly generic placeholder which is supposed to account for the possible loss of communications - the "expected" altitude in 91.185(c)(2).
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I hadn't considered the possibility of comms loss.
 
I’ve been held down longer… places like coming out of YIP near Detroit.

Pretty rare. Gotten that clearance more than a thousand times.
 
KE5BM said:
That makes sense. I hadn't considered the possibility of comms loss.
Click to expand...
It still has that function, but I put "supposed to" in italics because, to a large degree it has become a generic placeholder. Pilots have given examples of headings and altitudes which, if you waited 10 minutes, you would hit a mountain. And yet, it's given at those airports as well.

Expect ... "one zero minutes after departure" is discussed several time in this section of the controller manual
 
Last edited:
Yeah the 10 minutes gives them time to realize NXYZ is unable to talk, and they will expect him/her to follow the clearance and in 10 minutes start climbing. They can start clearing traffic ahead. as the pilot proceeds on the filed course NORDO. Pretty unlikely event, but have to have a plan B.
 
Tools said:
I’ve been held down longer… places like coming out of YIP near Detroit.

Pretty rare. Gotten that clearance more than a thousand times.
Click to expand...
No doubt. Very much expected in busy airspace to keep you clear of other traffic until TRACON can make radio and radar contact.
 
KE5BM said:
I live near a Class D field. At least close enough to be able to hear the tower from home. Fortunately, it's a field that's slow enough they're usually talking on all frequencies so I get to hear clearance delivery. Something I hear on nearly every clearance that I'm curious about and it just happened a minute ago.

"Maintain runway heading, climb and maintain 3000, expect higher in 10 minutes."

I've never once heard nor seen an IFR aircraft on it's way to the FLs hold such a low altitude for such a long time. So for the controllers, is this just a generic placeholder or is there actually a time that an IFR aircraft would have to hang out at 3000 burning all that gas and being so close to the ground (and as is the case here today) be in the soup?
Click to expand...
I recall the OB guys said that it's a case of an example becoming a reality. Evidently the 10 minutes thing is given as an example in the 7110 and just became a thing embedded in controllers' minds as they went through training. No particular reason that 10 minutes was chosen, but it has become a standard instruction.
 
The 3,000 ft isn’t given depending on final altitude. Doesn’t matter if it’s a jet going to FLs or a piston going to sub 10,000 ft. It’s just something for deconfliction with other overflying IFR traffic.

We had 2,000 ft for all departures when I worked at NBC and that’s a fighter base where they’re almost always going to FLs. 99% of the time they don’t level off there. Once they check in with departure whether it be on the ground or off the departure end (radar), they’ll get the highest allowed by either traffic or the top of the controller’s airspace. Hilton Head as I recall uses 2,000 ft as well.
 
Your main question has already been answered. The expected altitude is to be used in the case of radio failure.

The reason the initial altitude is usually low is that departures are restricted below the inbound arrivals so that there will be no conflicts between them. You are cleared higher when clear of the arrival routes (if busy) or when there are no conflicting arrivals inbound (slower times).

In mountainous areas, the 10 minutes might be 5 minutes or 3 minutes or, sometimes, a distance like 5nm.
 
I have been under the impression that it’s mostly about the division of airspace between tower and departure. Tower can’t give you 10,000 or FL320, but if you can’t get in touch when they switch you to departure you don’t have to stay at 1500 AGL all day (which, among other issues, would make it less likely you ever will establish contact with ATC).
 
iamtheari said:
I have been under the impression that it’s mostly about the division of airspace between tower and departure. Tower can’t give you 10,000 or FL320, but if you can’t get in touch when they switch you to departure you don’t have to stay at 1500 AGL all day (which, among other issues, would make it less likely you ever will establish contact with ATC).
Click to expand...
A TRACON will have a vertical limit to their airspace but that will rarely be given in a departure clearance because it is necessary to separate departures from arrivals and other traffic. Departure will climb, or step-climb, the flight to the limit of their airspace after departure. Center will climb them higher and, for jet traffic, that will be in several step-climbs due to sector divisions and traffic.

In the (rare) case of a radio failure, sectors and facilities will coordinate to clear the airspace for the flight's climb to the expected altitude at the time he was told to expect it.
 
AvNavCom said:
I recall the OB guys said that it's a case of an example becoming a reality. Evidently the 10 minutes thing is given as an example in the 7110 and just became a thing embedded in controllers' minds as they went through training. No particular reason that 10 minutes was chosen, but it has become a standard instruction.
Click to expand...
Yep, I heard that as well. And there's a lot of those that controllers use just because they always use it. But I have also heard 5 minutes a number of times so what is embedded may be different at different places.
 
iamtheari said:
I have been under the impression that it’s mostly about the division of airspace between tower and departure. Tower can’t give you 10,000 or FL320, but if you can’t get in touch when they switch you to departure you don’t have to stay at 1500 AGL all day (which, among other issues, would make it less likely you ever will establish contact with ATC).
Click to expand...
The initial altitude is nothing more that one that meets the immediate MIA, gets the aircraft in radar contact (hopefully) and keeps it clear of most other IFR overflights.

It’s an altitude given because of the length of time between receiving a clearance and actually departing. If every aircraft was given their final requested altitude by CD/GD, departure would have to constantly modify it or the aircraft would wait forever for a release. No way to ensure separation that far in advance.
 
Velocity173 said:
The initial altitude is nothing more that one that meets the immediate MIA, gets the aircraft in radar contact (hopefully) and keeps it clear of most other IFR overflights.

It’s an altitude given because of the length of time between receiving a clearance and actually departing. If every aircraft was given their final requested altitude by CD/GD, departure would have to constantly modify it or the aircraft would wait forever for a release. No way to ensure separation that far in advance.
Click to expand...
Stated another way, it makes the chunk of airspace that ATC has to keep everybody else out of a lot smaller before you’re actually airborne.
 
KE5BM said:
I live near a Class D field. At least close enough to be able to hear the tower from home. Fortunately, it's a field that's slow enough they're usually talking on all frequencies so I get to hear clearance delivery. Something I hear on nearly every clearance that I'm curious about and it just happened a minute ago.

"Maintain runway heading, climb and maintain 3000, expect higher in 10 minutes."

I've never once heard nor seen an IFR aircraft on it's way to the FLs hold such a low altitude for such a long time. So for the controllers, is this just a generic placeholder or is there actually a time that an IFR aircraft would have to hang out at 3000 burning all that gas and being so close to the ground (and as is the case here today) be in the soup?
Click to expand...
In fifty years as a pilot and thirty years as a controller I can't recall ever hearing "expect higher in 10 minutes" as part of a departure clearance. Pilots were issued an initial altitude and told when to expect clearance to their requested altitude. If their requested altitude was not to be available they were told what altitude to expect as their final. "Climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level three five zero one zero minutes after departure", or "climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level two three zero one zero minutes after departure, that will be your final."
 
I bet if you listened in on the tower and the departure controller you'd hear the aircraft being handed off to departure almost immediately after takeoff and then the departure controller immediately clearing the aircraft to some higher altitude. I get this kind of thing all the time and usually it works out that I get a new altitude(s) assigned before I ever have to level off all the way up to my cruise altitude.
 
cowman said:
I bet if you listened in on the tower and the departure controller you'd hear the aircraft being handed off to departure almost immediately after takeoff and then the departure controller immediately clearing the aircraft to some higher altitude. I get this kind of thing all the time and usually it works out that I get a new altitude(s) assigned before I ever have to level off all the way up to my cruise altitude.
Click to expand...
That's exactly why I asked because that seems to always be the case.
 
roncachamp said:
In fifty years as a pilot and thirty years as a controller I can't recall ever hearing "expect higher in 10 minutes" as part of a departure clearance. Pilots were issued an initial altitude and told when to expect clearance to their requested altitude. If their requested altitude was not to be available they were told what altitude to expect as their final. "Climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level three five zero one zero minutes after departure", or "climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level two three zero one zero minutes after departure, that will be your final."
Click to expand...

Indeed, this is the standard departure clearance. The Expect in ten is there purely for lost comm purposes. You usually get cleared to climb once you contact departure and are in radar contact.
 
roncachamp said:
In fifty years as a pilot and thirty years as a controller I can't recall ever hearing "expect higher in 10 minutes" as part of a departure clearance. Pilots were issued an initial altitude and told when to expect clearance to their requested altitude. If their requested altitude was not to be available they were told what altitude to expect as their final. "Climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level three five zero one zero minutes after departure", or "climb and maintain three thousand, expect flight level two three zero one zero minutes after departure, that will be your final."
Click to expand...
If you're implying that the controller is using improper phraseology, that's on me. I should've better noted that I paraphrased as opposed to using quotes.
 
flyingron said:
Indeed, this is the standard departure clearance. The Expect in ten is there purely for lost comm purposes. You usually get cleared to climb once you contact departure and are in radar contact.
Click to expand...
Right. "Expect higher in 10 minutes" provides nothing for lost comm purposes. How high do you climb if you find yourself NORDO ten minutes after takeoff?
 
Last edited:
roncachamp said:
Right. "Expect higher in 10 minutes" provides nothing for lost comm purposes. How high do you climb if you find yourself NORDO ten minutes after takeoff?
Click to expand...
Don’t you climb to your filed altitude? Fly your flight plane then if early to the approach hold at final approach fix till eta?
Now if you find yourself in vfr land as soon as possible and contact FSS? I think this is how it went?
 
KE5BM said:
If you're implying that the controller is using improper phraseology, that's on me. I should've better noted that I paraphrased as opposed to using quotes.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's typically going to be "expect filed altitude" or "expect [a number]" in the stated time frame.

Don't worry about it. Unless they've been exposed to it often, most won't recall the exact wording ATC uses, so errors like that are pretty much expected.
 
bonefishpete said:
Don’t you climb to your filed altitude? Fly your flight plane then if early to the approach hold at final approach fix till eta?
Click to expand...
The details of what to do in a lost comm situation is a whole separate subject. Depends on the reason for lost comm, where you are heading, and other matters of judgment. In 2025, it's more likely to be an emergency that pure lost comm.
 
a bit of trivia: At one wings safety seminar a controller talked about lost comm procedures but also said they'll try to just keep everyone away from you even if they see you diverting from your clearance (pretty much assumes they can see your transponder).
 
midlifeflyer said:
The details of what to do in a lost comm situation is a whole separate subject. Depends on the reason for lost comm, where you are heading, and other matters of judgment. In 2025, it's more likely to be an emergency that pure lost comm.
Click to expand...
So your saying is new 2025 radios don’t fail and batteries don’t die. I believe the expect higher in ten was strictly for lost communications.
 
Bob Noel said:
a bit of trivia: At one wings safety seminar a controller talked about lost comm procedures but also said they'll try to just keep everyone away from you even if they see you diverting from your clearance (assumes they can see your transponder).
Click to expand...
Yep they going to treat you like AF 1. I’m Just north of KPBI. AF1 comes in approach scatters the airliners far and wide. POTUS couple of weeks ago went from PBI to MIA. I counted over 20 airliners holding around Miami till AF1 landed.
 
bonefishpete said:
So your saying is new 2025 radios don’t fail and batteries don’t die.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Think of what is in the typical GA IFR cockpit in 2025. Two nav/comms, with one or both of them including GPS capability. What is the likelihood that both will crap out at the exact same time without also taking out the NAV or being the sign of an impending electrical failure?

Aside from that, think of your destination. It's the PHL Class B. If you are early, are you planning to hang out at the IAF for the active approach, leaving it to ATC to reroute everyone else until the ETA ATC doesn't even know about?

After you answer those based purely on 91.185, think in terms of what the AIM says at the very beginning of it's discussion of Two-way Radio Communications Failure.

Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall, but for those who subscribe, I recently did an article for IFR magazine on "Lost Comm Realities"
 
Bob Noel said:
a bit of trivia: At one wings safety seminar a controller talked about lost comm procedures but also said they'll try to just keep everyone away from you even if they see you diverting from your clearance (pretty much assumes they can see your transponder).
Click to expand...
That's not trivia. It's the real world. There may be an exception but you can ask any TRACON controller and get the same answer.
And it doesn't require your transponder to be operational, since it may not be.
 
Last edited:
bonefishpete said:
I believe the expect higher in ten was strictly for lost communications.
Click to expand...
I think that the point was that they don't say, "expect higher in ten". They say, "Maintain 4,000', expect 15,000' ten minutes after departure".

Most of the ATC phraseology that pilots post online is wrong and that leads to endless confusion about what the clearance actually means.

When you compare the actual phraseology to the applicable regulation it's much easier to understand.
 
Larry in TN said:
I think that the point was that they don't say, "expect higher in ten". They say, "Maintain 4,000', expect 15,000' ten minutes after departure".

Most of the ATC phraseology that pilots post online is wrong and that leads to endless confusion about what the clearance actually means.

When you compare the actual phraseology to the applicable regulation it's much easier to understand.
Click to expand...
You are correct and I used higher instead of an actual altitude.
 
Bob Noel said:
a bit of trivia: At one wings safety seminar a controller talked about lost comm procedures but also said they'll try to just keep everyone away from you even if they see you diverting from your clearance (pretty much assumes they can see your transponder).
Click to expand...
They don't even need a transponder most of the time. They'll have a primary return.

Years ago, I was riding in the back seat of an Arrow while Margy's flight instructor, Buzz was giving instrument training to the owner. As we were shooting the approach into GAI and he lowered the gear the whole panel went dead. No problem, Fred says, I have a handheld. Buzz tells him to tell Dulles that we have the field in sight and we want to come land. Dulles gives Fred a transponder code which he starts to dial into the non-functioning transponder. "Give the radio to Ron," he tells the student.

Now I find this thing is beeping (and old King KX99) and that means the battery is going dead. Dulles can't hear me. They are trying to relay messages off airliners in the area and I can hear but not transmit. Finally, I hear "We have a primary only target 20 miles NE of the field, if that is you, turn 270." I yell "Turn 270" to the instructor who is now flying. "Good, now if you want to land at Dulles, Fly 135." That puts us on a direct path to 19L. I yell "Fly 135". We get cleared to land that that if they don't hear from us, they'll roll the equipment. "We don't need the equipment," I transmit. In the dying gasp of the battery, that transition got through. I can't get another one to even taxi, so we just taxi into Hawthorne (right there at the end of the runway. Buzz goes to debrief the student and I call the tower to let them know we are OK and thank them.

My wife managed to arrange to get completely NORDO planes in and out of IAD (VFR) for the museum flying. I flight-of-two'd a NORDO queen air out of there to get him up to Canada. I went from IAD to CJR via BUF.
 
Pretty common out of the airport I fly off, "radar vectors, climb and maintain 2000/3000, expect <final filed altitude> 10minutes after departure". Airport is also under a bravo shelf
 
As Feh said - pretty common to stay at a low altitude for more than 10 minutes if you are taking off from an airport well inside a Class B shelf (such as Houston). My wife and I took off from West Houston and were given a clearance of 2000' in the middle of the afternoon in August. It was excruciating (hot and humid) and I called ATC begging for higher. Nope....kept me at 2000' but did seem sorry about me being cooked alive.
 
Something to consider is the airspace you’re flying in. In my TRACON airspace there are unwritten but known “norms” about filed altitude and direction. Too high and you get the full SID (into the B) and too low and they vector you all around the Class B. Those altitudes were not really known until the controllers shared at at local pilot wings meeting. And still not published anywhere.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top