"...expect higher in 10 minutes."

Roger Wilco said:
Since it’s not a clearance it has no relevance to 91.185. However, we might assume that the controller has a good reason for delaying an altitude change, so if we subsequently went NORDO and had to revert to 91.185, we might consider delaying a climb or descent until meeting the condition that the controller advised us to expect.
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I'm sorry, but I do not agree. That's not what 91.185(2)(iii) says. When they want to bind you to something in a previous clearance, they say that. (2)(i) says "... in the last clearance received. (2)(iii) doesn't say in a previous clearance, it says that "ATC advised may be expected in a future clearance." Similarly, the route stuff has the same. The "advice" as to what can be expected is valid anytime ATC gives it.

However "higher" or "lower" isn't an altitude, so no matter where it is advised, it has no meaning to 91.185.
 
flyingron said:
I'm sorry, but I do not agree. That's not what 91.185(2)(iii) says. When they want to bind you to something in a previous clearance, they say that. (2)(i) says "... in the last clearance received. (2)(iii) doesn't say in a previous clearance, it says that "ATC advised may be expected in a future clearance." Similarly, the route stuff has the same. The "advice" as to what can be expected is valid anytime ATC gives it.

However "higher" or "lower" isn't an altitude, so no matter where it is advised, it has no meaning to 91.185.
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What, exactly, do you disagree with?
 
flyingron said:
Your statement that said it the expect advise wasn't a clearance, so it doesn't apply.
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Yes. An ATC transmission to expect a climb or descent somewhere down the road, without stating a specific altitude or level to expect, is not an “altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance” per 91.185(c)(2)(iii).

Addendumb: That’s what I had stated back in #66. I still don’t see a point of disagreement.
 
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Bob Noel said:
I'm not a controller, but have heard the "higher in 10 minutes" thing often enough. Usually used when there is conflicting traffic and usually higher is given far sooner than 10 minutes (in my limited experience).
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Every IFR departure clearance I ever received out of Palo Alto Airport has included an "expect higher in x minutes" statement, due to the proximity of airline traffic and mountains.
 
Palmpilot said:
Every IFR departure clearance I ever received out of Palo Alto Airport has included an "expect higher in x minutes" statement, due to the proximity of airline traffic and mountains.
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In the end, terrain remains your responsibility IFR regardless of what the clearance issued.
 
Palmpilot said:
Every IFR departure clearance I ever received out of Palo Alto Airport has included an "expect higher in x minutes" statement, due to the proximity of airline traffic and mountains.
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Did those clearances not state an altitude to be expected?
 
Clip4 said:
In the end, terrain remains your responsibility IFR regardless of what the clearance issued.
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Well, you're not supposed to be vectored into terrain. The other procedures should keep you out of it (following the proper departure and getting on the minimum instrument altitude. 91.185 tells you to maintain the minimum instrument altitude in the absence of being told to go higher anyhow. Your filed altitude is only the INITIAL altitude you want to fly.
Roger Wilco said:
Did those clearances not state an altitude to be expected?
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They always say "filed altitude" or a hard number in my experience. There's no purpose in them saying otherwise. It's always +10 as well.
 
This morning and last night I got "....expect 8,000 within 10 minutes." Milwaukee and Little Rock, so completely different location. Already had "cleared as filed".
Does that mean the intent of the communication is to clear to filed altitude, but on a timeline TBD?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's not always +10. I've had "expect xxx after five minutes" in a couple of places. It's certainly not common, though.
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Yeah. It's also possible for them to give a fix as to where to expect higher, but I've never heard that one. The +10 is just sort of a standard pre-takeoff CYA even when there's no operational reason to hold people lower after radar contact.
 
flyingron said:
They always say "filed altitude" or a hard number in my experience. There's no purpose in them saying otherwise. It's always +10 as well.
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Yes. That's what I was asking @Palmpilot.

It's not always +10. Depending on the specific airport, it could be some other time limit such as +5 or +3 (clearances I have received). The point is that a legitimate clearance must state the altitude to be expected.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Did those clearances not state an altitude to be expected?
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I misremembered it. They do state an altitude to be expected. (It's been a few years since I have done any IFR flying.)
 
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Palmpilot said:
They do state an altitude to be expected.
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"Expect [higher/lower]" is information. It is not a clearance.

"Expect [altitude], [#] minutes after departure" is part of your clearance to be used iaw 91.185 in the event of a communications failure.
 
Larry in TN said:
"Expect [higher/lower]" is information. It is not a clearance.

"Expect [altitude], [#] minutes after departure" is part of your clearance to be used iaw 91.185 in the event of a communications failure.
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The latter doesn't need to even be part of your clearance (though it often is)....

27K: Roanoake Approach, Navion 5327K, request 6000
ROA: 27K, expect 6000 at DOILY
27K: 27K
<comms lost>
When I get to DOILY and absent something else indicating a higher altitude is required, I can descend to 6000.
 
If we take Palo Alto (PAO) as an example...

It's been a long time since I've flown from PAO, so I thought it would be interesting to tune-in to the PAO Ground frequency via Live ATC and try to catch a few IFR clearances. The weather must have been nice because, with the livestream playing in the background I only heard two clearances issued to departing aircraft over the course of an hour or so. One aircraft was cleared to "climb and maintain 3000, expect 7000 five minutes after departure," and the other "climb and maintain 3000, expect F250 ten minutes after departure." PAO lies amid a complex jumble of airspace and has high terrain in every quadrant, and it would seem that both factors determine how altitde clearances are issued.
 
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