Exiting a Runway with a greater than 90 degree turn

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by mentallywoxof, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. mentallywoxof

    mentallywoxof Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi All,

    I'm a new private pilot and had a question regarding exiting a runway with a taxiway that requires a >90 degree turn. I frequent an airport that has a runway exit with approximately a 120 degree turn. I ask ATC for approval and I usually receive an agitated response. I'll gladly keep asking even if they get ****ed off if it is unclear because it's far better than getting violated. Some time ago, my flight instructor was asked to give ATC a phone call as a Southwest pilot when he did something along these lines. His circumstance involved a high-speed taxiway but he wasn't certain if this 90 degree rule applied to all taxiways or just hi-speed. Does anyone have insight to whether ATC approval is required to exit runway that requires a >90 degree turn?

    4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

    The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

    a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

    Obviously, this isn't the "crime of the century". I just want to know what is technically correct.
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Howdy. :confused:
     
  3. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    How far down is the next turnoff? You are always in the position to say unable, keep rolling past it, etc.
     
  4. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure I understand your concern....are you interpreting a greater than 90deg turn as the same as a "course reversal" on the runway?Wouldn't force that equivalence at all
     
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  5. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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  6. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For what it is worth, I think Cam... er, Captain’s interpretation is wrong. Didn’t review more than a few posts so he could have changed his mind later in the thread, but I doubt it.
     
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  7. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Only if it is on a treadmill.
     
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  8. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Reversing course on a runway is back taxiing on the runway. It has nothing to do with turning more than 90 degrees.
     
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  9. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    1st Post, eh?? :popcorn:
     
  10. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    It’s all a part of local conditions & traffic. One issue I see is if one slows a bunch to make the turn, with a plane on short final. Then one has conditions to keep in mind, snow covered, maybe seldom used.

    As usual, if in doubt, query ATC.
     
  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You could do a 'reverse high speed' exit without passing through 90 degrees worth of turn until the edge of the runway. You do have to continue on past the hold lines before stopping, but you are 'clear of the runway' at the runway edge
     
  12. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    This topic drew 300 posts before being locked last time, and spawned several followup threads. Same references to ATC phone call and all...

    Interesting 1st post. Stirring up a new generation of contributors?? ;)

    https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/taking-the-reverse-highspeed.48188/page-8
     
  13. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    As a controller I really don't see what the issue is here. OP you are asking permission to exit the runway on a taxiway that is greater than 90 degrees? Why? Just do it. That's what they were probably "agitated" about.
     
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  14. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    If you need to get off the runway quickly, I still would think slowing for a reverse high speed would be faster than rolling out another 2000 feet for the next turn off.

    ETA: That’s a generic statement. Of course some airports may have a much closer turn off.
     
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  15. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Because he wasn't certain that he was allowed to do this without asking permission. It seems the majority believes permission is not required, so, I guess he might quit doing so in the future?

    Better safe than sorry though.

    Ground controllers oft get miffed at me for calling them up and confirming that I am cleared to cross runway XX as I'm taxiing out for runway YY. I'll almost always do this if the airport is busy and it's been an quite some time since I received my original taxi clearance to cross this runway. A lot can happen in five minutes (or whatever) at a busy airport.

    They'll confirmed that I'm cleared to cross the runway and it's nearly always in a terse "WTF are you asking me that for?" tone of voice.

    But you know what? Their being upset is their problem, not mine.
     
  16. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    This topic comes up multiple times on multiple boards. I submit the following observations

    There are different opinions about what constitutes "clear" and what constitutes a "reversal".
    Nobody has ever presented an actual case of the FAA violating a pilot for using the reverse high speed.
    For large jets, the bigger issue is more about clearance, speed and safety of making a sharp turn.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  17. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Well Tim my comment is for the ONE thing in question and that is exiting the runway on a taxiway greater than 90 degrees. So OP, if it is the first available taxiway then take it if you can do so safely and you'll never hear a controller complain that you exited the runway too early, so no need to ask for permission. If ya'll want to get controller's collective panties in a wad about confirming crossing a runway, that's another issue. But I'll go there. As a ground controller I normally wouldn't mind if someone confirms to cross a runway especially if it has been a while since I gave permission (which brings up another point, WHY has it been a while? If you call up ready to taxi, controllers expect you to taxi) But if you're stepping all over someone else trying to read back a clearance confirming what I already authorized you to do and the other guy has to read back his clearance again, well then its more people's problem.

    Edit: It's obvious from what I've read on this board that pilots do not like to be questioned by ATC about much of anything. Why should it be any different for controllers?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  18. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Take the fastest way off the runway, seems much to do about nothing to me.


    And welcome to the board.
     
  19. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think the issue is at busy airports that have high speed taxiways is the following aircraft. If one slows almost to a stop to make a reverse high speed taxiway, and is still on the runway, that may cause the tower to send the following plane around. They are anticipating you keeping up your speed for the "normal" high speed taxiway and exiting there, not at a reverse high speed.
     
  20. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Airline dudes? Are there company rules, op specs or something like that I think they're called, about this?
     
  21. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not at mine. I did it once at KATL and the controller wasn't pleased. As far as I know there is no rule against it. But as I mentioned above, controllers are expecting you to exit at high speed taxiway ahead of you.
     
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Officially called reverse high-speeds. When I was a student they called them Polish highspeeds (not particularly PC).

    At IAD, the taxiways are wide. In a small aircraft like a 172 or my Navion, I can clear the runway on the reverse as fast on the reverse as the forward. Still, ATC doesn't expect it but occasionally they will offer it (or I'll ask).
     
  23. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    I'm part Polish - doesn't bother me at all. My Polish grandmother used to tell these kinds of jokes all the time. My favorite ended with "I never liked that house anyway. And I got enough wood in the attic to build a whole new one". It was part of growing up and learning not to be stupid or in this case, to think through the situation fully.

    The one time I've been into IAD, we landed 19L and were directed to take K2. There's a 1500' difference between K2 and K3 and we needed to go north on K anyway so we were going to either make a sharp turn onto K2 or a sharp turn off K3.

    Was kind of funny, we were on a left downwind to 19L, almost abeam the numbers and they changed controllers. The new guy came on and asked if we had the airport in sight. Yes, it's pretty much filling our left window. But still just replied "airport in sight" and then he gave a landing clearance.
     
  24. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I was based at IAD. The controllers who realized that light planes were a lot more flexible were a joy as opposed to those who tried to sequence us with jets at the approach gate. The good ones would have you hold parallel to the approach end of the runway waiting for a gap and you'd dive at the field. I'd fly my base leg even with the threshold. I could turn final, touch down, and still be off at the first taxiway.

    The oddest time was when they were trenching in new utilities to the west side of the field and the first 6000 feet of the (then) runway 1L was closed. Something disturbing about a 6000' displaced threshold.
     
  25. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I've seen similar like that. Weird flying over it with men and equipment all over the closed portion.
     
  26. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Not exactly, you are not 'Clear of the runway' until you are past the hold short markings.
     
  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    AIM 4-3-20 b. You have to continue to the hold markings, but you're clear when past the runway edge. Exception is if the Tower gives you some instruction that prevents you from taxiing past the hold short line. The tower uses this to separate airplanes also. They can clear another airplane to takeoff or land as soon as the runway edge is cleared as long as they didn't impede your progress to the hold line.

    EDIT: I lied. You are 'considered clear of the runway' is how it's worded. You ain't actually 'Clear' until past the hold line. My bad
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  28. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This was part of the old thread, the question was "when are you clear of the runway?".

    According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

    >>>
    CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−

    a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway, is clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are held short of the applicable runway holding position marking.

    b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft, which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the applicable runway holding position marking.

    c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good judgement to ensure that adequate separation exists between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at airports with inadequate runway edge lines or holding position markings.
    <<<

    So, it depends if you are approaching or departing the rwy.
     
  29. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    BLUF* Nobody is "clear" of the runway until they are past the hold short line.

    In legal speak the runway isn't clear until whatever was on the runway, be it an aircraft or a vehicle, until the hold short line is crossed. Tower can "anticipate" separation if the aircraft/vehicle is still in motion to clear another to land or for take off. But tower cannot clear anyone to land or take off if an aircraft or vehicle is stopped between the runway and the hold short line. But if tower anticipates and clears someone for take off or to land and the aircraft they anticipated to taxi past the hold short line stops short, then its on the tower controller to cancel take off clearance or send a landing aircraft around.

    * bottom line up front
     
  30. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, I'm ready to taxi when I call...here's but one example of WHY:

    I land at KSGF on 14. I clear the runway at Hotel, stop, contact ground and ask for permission to taxi to the self serve pumps. (which are at the extreme NE corner of the field at the end of Papa, at least they were, they're no longer there)

    I'm cleared by Ground to to the pumps via Delta, Uniform, November, Papa, and cleared to cross 02/20. It can easily take quite some time to get to 02/20, especially if I'm instructed to yield to other taxiing traffic at various intersections along the way.

    Note: This is not a hypothetical, this exact scenario has happened.

    sgf_airport_diagram.jpg
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  31. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. "considered clear of the runway" is how it's worded. My post above edited.

    This was supposed to be a reply @Timbeck2 's post #29 above. Don't know why that didn't show
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  32. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Not being familiar with the airfield, are you going to the ramp after you refuel? In that case I would expect someone to make sure they are cleared across a runway. And of course if it takes you a lot of time to get there I would have no problem with someone making sure. In fact, I'd probably thank you for checking.

    Edit: Your diagram didn't load for me until after I posted.
     
  33. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Heh - I noticed the OP lit the fuse... then ran!
     
  34. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Not sure I understand the question or concern. Here's the exit from runway 33 at X04 (Apopka). Is this the sort of thing you're questioning? And why would it be a problem? (Pic is for illustration only; X04 is non-towered anyway.) If you can't turn greater than 90, where the heck are you gonna go?

    upload_2018-1-29_12-32-47.png
     
  35. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    @Timbeck2 All I was trying to convey is that I don't think there's ever any harm in confirming. Whether is my scenario or the OP's. Sometimes chit happens.
     
  36. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think it was one of @SixPapaCharlie 's creations.....:);)
     
  37. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No, high speed taxiways are similar to this:

    IMG_3424.JPG
     
  38. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    Okay.

    Still don't see the problem. It's not a back-taxi to reach the taxiway, so I don't get the issue. I plead new pilot ignorance.
     
  39. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    It's not an issue.

    Some people try to infer things based on what they think is true or heard from someone else, not what the regs actually say. Others just like to stir the pot.

    Let's see if we can get 300+ posts out this one as well...
     
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  40. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter

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    I wonder if another one of his names is "Captain", although that wasn't a Captain-style post.