Taking the Reverse Highspeed

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Captain

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Everyone here knows you can't get off a runway at an intersecting runway or a reverse high speed exit without tower approval, right?

I bring it up because no fewer than 3 times in the past year I've been flying with an FO (all different guys) who have tried. It's always the reverse high speed they shoot for. I guess it's more obvious you can't get off on a runway.

It's always the same, they start going for the reverse, I see this and try to get tower approval as they are slowing. If I can get it it's no problem. But sometimes the frequency is busy or the tower won't give approval and it turns into a situation.

A few months ago it happened again to me going into MCI on 1L. My FO starts going for A5 (a reverse high speed) and I try to get tower approval. Tower frequency is busy so I just tell him (my FO) to keep going to the next one. He keeps slowing so I say again, "keep on going to the next". He says , he's "already committed now" so now I have to take command action. I hit the brakes and take the plane away. I do not like doing this but I'm not going to get violated for him or anyone else.

I suppose a fix for this would be to emphasize runway exit point in the approach and landing brief, but as it was a VFR day the brief was pretty short. We did brief but I'm pretty certain the exact exit turn off wasn't briefed.

Anyway, thought I'd just post a few words here to spread awareness. I know people who have been violated for taking the reverse. Don't be that guy. Also, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. Brief every leg what turn off we're aiming for or make a comment every leg that you can't get off on a reverse high speed turn off or a runway without tower approval. Seems like that should be common knowledge to me. If that's the answer then maybe I should also brief every single abnormal and normal procedure we might encounter. I don't know, just seems like anyone with at least a private license should know this...

Fly safe,
Captain
 
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Captain said:
Everyone here knows you can't get off a runway at an intersecting runway or a reverse high speed exit without tower approval, right?
Click to expand...
Nope. Didn't know about the reverse high speed exit - where is that documented?
 
AiM.


I'll get back later with a chapter paragraph unless Cap'n Ron beats me to it...
 
While it is definitely written that you are not to exit onto another runway (see paragraph , below), I see nothing saying you are not allowed to use a reverse high speed.
4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing ​
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
NOTE-
1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required.
2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is considered an integral part of the landing clearance and satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.
c. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.
NOTE-
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control.
2. A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.
Click to expand...
In fact, I do it all the time at KSBY when landing on 14 and turning right on Delta, or landing on 5 and turning left on Echo, and Tower is perfectly happy with that.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1203/00977AD.PDF
 
Okay, I'll go look and find it...Oh wait! Cap'n Ron posted it and somehow missed his own quote!

4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding position markings associated with the landing runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.
NOTE-
1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required.
2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is considered an integral part of the landing clearance and satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.
c. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.
NOTE-
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control.
2. A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.
Click to expand...

There, I bolded the applicable part. I should have mentioned that an operating Tower is part of the assumption here. If it's uncontrolled then you own the runway and can do whatever you want, broadcasting on CTAF, of course, if able.

Turning on the reverse high speed taxi way is considered a reversal of course. If you think about it, it makes sense. To get clear of the runway environment on a reverse high speed you, by definition, have to 'reverse course'.

Sorry if this came off a bit snarky. I was just trying to be a tad funny.
 
I would take "reverse course" to mean a 180 degree turn on the runway and head the other way (back taxi). How is taking a taxiway that is more than a 90 degree angle to a runway considered a course reversal?
 
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To add, you are either 'ON' the runway or 'NOT ON' the runway. To clear on a reverse you must reverse course 'ON' the runway.

A guy at my company go violated for doing just this. The FO got a letter from the FAA even though he said at the time, "I'd go on to the next turn off."

There was traffic on short final and despite tower telling them to get off the runway they took the reverse. They still might have been okay but when the Captain called the number he was given (tower phone) he then got 'lippy' with them and basically said, 'it's my runway and I'll get off where I want'.

Well, the FAA didn't see it that way and busted him. I am friends with the FO and he is Mad Mad Mad for getting a letter even though he said, "don't do this".

Final analysis...don't take the runway turn off or the reverse high speed without permission.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I would take "reverse course" to mean a 180 degree turn on the runway and head the other way. How is taking a taxiway that is more than a 90 degree angle to a runway considered a course reversal?
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Just think about it. Past 90 degrees and you're technically going the 'other way'.
 
Then as long as you haven't turned more than 90 degrees before you've cleared the runway, you are ok.
 
Captain said:
Just think about it. Past 90 degrees and you're technically going the 'other way'.
Click to expand...

So if one turns off on a taxiway that is a 120 degree angle to the runway (like turning left off runway 34 at HPN onto taxiway Charlie) the FAA will violate him/her?
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I would take "reverse course" to mean a 180 degree turn on the runway and head the other way (back taxi). How is taking a taxiway that is more than a 90 degree angle to a runway considered a course reversal?
Click to expand...

So, if I turn around (right) on center line and proceed directly to the now left turnoff 3,500 feet down the runway it's not a reversal? It's only 178 degrees, right?
 
Old Geek said:
Then as long as you haven't turned more than 90 degrees before you've cleared the runway, you are ok.
Click to expand...

The semantics here are probably that you haven't truly cleared the runway until all of your aircraft is across the yellow line.

So unless it's a reeeealy wide reverse high speed, you're going to have to turn more than 90 degrees to get your tail over the hold-short line.
 
For a jet, I can see this being a problem. For a 172, you can clear the runway onto the reverse without going past 90 degrees on the runway, I'll bet.

Still, I would normally just go to the next "normal" taxiway.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
So if one turns off on a taxiway that is a 120 degree angle to the runway (like turning left off runway 34 at HPN onto taxiway Charlie) the FAA will violate him/her?
Click to expand...

I think any turn past 90 could cause a problem, however, I think the issue is two fold.

1.) It was a true reverse high-speed turn off. Meant for opposite direction traffic to expeditiously exit the runway, and

2.) Captain got 'lippy' with the tower when he called. It he had just looked at his shoes and said, "golly I'm sorry" i"m pretty sure all would have been well. That's mostly why my FO buddy is ****ed.
 
I should mention that I don't advocate taking the reverse high speed. It seems sort of silly. Mind as well save the brakes and just roll to the next normal turnoff.
 
!

denverpilot said:
The semantics here are probably that you haven't truly cleared the runway until all of your aircraft is across the yellow line.

So unless it's a reeeealy wide reverse high speed, you're going to have to turn more than 90 degrees to get your tail over the hold-short line.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding!!!

I know first hand that pilots HAVE been busted for this. License suspended, certified letters and all. Him getting lippy with tower wasn't even mentioned in the suspension letter. Go figure!
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I should mention that I don't advocate taking the reverse high speed. It seems sort of silly. Mind as well save the brakes and just roll to the next normal turnoff.
Click to expand...


Ah, you'd be surprised. Plenty of times the FBO is on the landing end of the runway and that 'reverse high-speed' would be advantageous. I just do my best to anticipate and get clearance for it prior to coming up on the intersection. If I can't get specific approval the I roll on down to the next hight speed or 90 degree turn off.
 
In Texas they are known as Aggie highspeeds.
 
I fly in Texas all the time and have never heard that term.
 
Captain said:
Everyone here knows you can't get off a runway at an intersecting runway or a reverse high speed exit without tower approval, right?

I bring it up because no fewer than 3 times in the past year I've been flying with an FO (all different guys) who have tried. It's always the reverse high speed they shoot for. I guess it's more obvious you can't get off on a runway.

It's always the same, they start going for the reverse, I see this and try to get tower approval as they are slowing. If I can get it it's no problem. But sometimes the frequency is busy or the tower won't give approval and it turns into a situation.

A few months ago it happened again to me going into MCI on 1L. My FO starts going for A5 (a reverse high speed) and I try to get tower approval. Tower frequency is busy so I just tell him (my FO) to keep going to the next one. He keeps slowing so I say again, "keep on going to the next". He says , he's "already committed now" so now I have to take command action. I hit the brakes and take the plane away. I do not like doing this but I'm not going to get violated for him or anyone else.

I suppose a fix for this would be to emphasize runway exit point in the approach and landing brief, but as it was a VFR day the brief was pretty short. We did brief but I'm pretty certain the exact exit turn off wasn't briefed.

Anyway, thought I'd just post a few words here to spread awareness. I know people who have been violated for taking the reverse. Don't be that guy. Also, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. Brief every leg what turn off we're aiming for or make a comment every leg that you can't get off on a reverse high speed turn off or a runway without tower approval. Seems like that should be common knowledge to me. If that's the answer then maybe I should also brief every single abnormal and normal procedure we might encounter. I don't know, just seems like anyone with at least a private license should know this...

Fly safe,
Captain
Click to expand...
What are you flying? Turboprop?
 
denverpilot said:
The semantics here are probably that you haven't truly cleared the runway until all of your aircraft is across the yellow line.
Click to expand...
Depends. From a controller standpoint, you are clear of the runway when your aircraft is beyond the WHITE lines on the side.

The AIM tells us to keep going beyond the yellow before stopping and contacting ground.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
So if one turns off on a taxiway that is a 120 degree angle to the runway (like turning left off runway 34 at HPN onto taxiway Charlie) the FAA will violate him/her?
Click to expand...
No, they will not. You will only have a problem if you have to reverse course and taxi back up the runway to get back to it. If you can make one turn so you are lined up with the high speed at the completion of the turn of 120 degrees or so, you are OK.
 
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We occasionally take the reverse high speed at KAPA and other places. I've never heard a word about it from the controllers, and I've never interpreted the AIM that way or have heard of anyone interpreting it that way until this thread. I agree with the other people who say "reverse course" means to make a 180 and taxi back down the runway the opposite direction.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, they will not. You will only have a problem if you have to reverse course and taxi back up the runway to get back to it. If you can make one turn so you are lined up with the high speed at the completion of the turn of 120 degrees or so, you are OK.
Click to expand...

On this you are wrong. I know you hate to hear that. Many a runway has a reverse high speed with the hold short line well back. If you make the turn to go down that path the FAA can violate you. It has happened to ATP pilots I know first hand.

I know in my story the PIC 'got lippy'. But like i said, getting 'lippy' was not the enforcement action. Reversing course on the runway when Tower told him to expedite departure from the runway was. How did he fail to 'expedite departure from the runway'? He took the reverse high speed turn off.

Is everybody going to get busted for this? Of course not. Most of the time it's a non-issue and life goes on. But that one time... I post this to make aware. Just get approval for that reverse or move on down. That's my advise and that's what I do, even if it means taking the controls from the FO.
 
Captain said:
Turning on the reverse high speed taxi way is considered a reversal of course. If you think about it, it makes sense. To get clear of the runway environment on a reverse high speed you, by definition, have to 'reverse course'.
Click to expand...

By whom?
 
denverpilot said:
The semantics here are probably that you haven't truly cleared the runway until all of your aircraft is across the yellow line.
Click to expand...

Actually, as long as your continued movement across the hold short lines is not restricted, you've truly cleared the runway when all of your aircraft is beyond the white runway side stripe.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Someone had their certificate revoked for turning on a reverse high-speed? I can't wait to see the NTSB hearing on that one.
Click to expand...

I never said that. The question was 'who considers it a reversal'.

I answered, 'by the people whom revoke pilot licenses'.


The people who revoke pilot licenses are the FAA. I didn't say the FAA revoked a license in this case. But the FAA does revoke pilot licenses and they did suspend this pilot for 30 days.
 
Captain said:
I never said that. The question was 'who considers it a reversal'.

I answered, 'by the people whom revoke pilot licenses'.


The people who revoke pilot licenses are the FAA. I didn't say the FAA revoked a license in this case. But the FAA does revoke pilot licenses and they did suspend this pilot for 30 days.
Click to expand...

I'm the FAA, I don't consider it a reversal.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, as long as your continued movement across the hold short lines is not restricted, you've truly cleared the runway when all of your aircraft is beyond the white runway side stripe.
Click to expand...

Really? Then why is it a runway incursion when you cross the yellow lines and are still miles from the white line? (by 'miles' I mean dozens of yards)
 
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