Taking the Reverse Highspeed

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Man, I have taken the reverse high speed from 35R at KAUS to get to Signature many times. Guess I have just been lucky?
 
SCCutler said:
Man, I have taken the reverse high speed from 35R at KAUS to get to Signature many times. Guess I have just been lucky?
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No. I think it's a non-event 99% of the time. That 1% the tower may give you a number to call. IF you are given that number and say, "I'm sorry...I won't do it again" then you'll probably be fine. My friend didn't do that. He went on to tell tower on the phone that he 'owns' the runway and he'll get off where ever he pleases. Well, the FAA (those folks who revoke pilot licenses) decided a 30 day time out was in order.

I just got off the phone with my FO friend to go over the story. They landed 19C in KIAD (FBO (Landmark) on the North end of the runway) and the Captain took the reverse high speed. There is no FAR against 'being lippy' so they got him on Cap'n Ron's quote of the AIM about reversing course when clearing the runway.

There really is no argument here. Get clearance to exit the runway on another runway or a reverse high speed and your fine. Failing that, IF you're given a phone number then look at your shoes with you hat in hand and be nice to the tower guy with lots of "I'm sorry's" to boot.

This whole thing is a true story. The FAA did go after a guy and suspend his ticket for 30 days for taking the reverse.
 
Captain said:
You want me to prove the FAA revokes pilot licenses?
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I want you to prove that turning on the reverse high speed taxi way is considered a reversal of course by the people that revoke pilot licenses.
 
Captain said:
I just got off the phone with my FO friend to go over the story. They landed 19C in KIAD (FBO (Landmark) on the North end of the runway) and the Captain took the reverse high speed. There is no FAR against 'being lippy' so they got him on Cap'n Ron's quote of the AIM about reversing course when clearing the runway.
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I don't think we're hearing the whole story. :popcorn:
 
Captain said:
Really? Then why is it a runway incursion when you cross the yellow lines and are still miles from the white line? (by 'miles' I mean dozens of yards)
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Because you're going in the other direction when you do that. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:


CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−​


a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway,
is clear of the runway when all parts of the
aircraft are held short of the applicable runway
holding position marking.
​


b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft,

which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of
the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond
the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its
continued movement beyond the applicable runway
holding position marking.

​
​
c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good​



judgement to ensure that adequate separation exists
between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at
airports with inadequate runway edge lines or​
holding position markings.

​
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think we're hearing the whole story. :popcorn:
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I'm pretty sure I've told the whole story.

My friend is flying with another 'friend' (PIC). They land 19C at KIAD. They take a reverse high speed turn off with traffic close in (some 121 turbo prop). Tower had told them to 'expidite their turn off and the Captain elected to take the reverse high speed over the FO's (my closer friends) objection. As a result, 121 turbo prop had to go around). When they got to ground ATC gave the PIC a number to call.

PIC called the number and affirmed his God giving right to get off wherever he pleased. FO (my closer friend) heard the whole phone conversation from the PIC's side. Tower was not impressed and passed it to the FAA. FO (my closer friend) got a letter that sticks for 2 years (says him) and the Captain got a 30 day suspension for reversing course on the runway without ATC approval.

That's it. There is no more. That's the whole story.


I don't think it would have escalated if the PIC had just stood down when he called the phone number. Having said that, I don't think he would have got a phone number if he had just taken a forward high speed or 90 degree turn like the AIM suggests.
 
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roncachamp said:
Because you're going in the other direction when you do that. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:


CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY−​


a. Taxiing aircraft, which is approaching a runway,
is clear of the runway when all parts of the
aircraft are held short of the applicable runway
holding position marking.
​


b. A pilot or controller may consider an aircraft,

which is exiting or crossing a runway, to be clear of
the runway when all parts of the aircraft are beyond
the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its
continued movement beyond the applicable runway
holding position marking.

​
​
c. Pilots and controllers shall exercise good


judgement to ensure that adequate separation exists
between all aircraft on runways and taxiways at
airports with inadequate runway edge lines or​

holding position markings.

​
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I don't know, maybe there was an aircraft coming up the taxi way that would have 'restricted' them from clearing the runway. That wasn't conveyed to me. Since it wasn't I assume that wasn't an issue in this event.
 
Same experience here when using 35 at Grayson County. If you're going to the restaurant, that's the most direct and most logical way to get there.

Everskyward said:
We occasionally take the reverse high speed at KAPA and other places. I've never heard a word about it from the controllers, and I've never interpreted the AIM that way or have heard of anyone interpreting it that way until this thread. I agree with the other people who say "reverse course" means to make a 180 and taxi back down the runway the opposite direction.
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wabower said:
Same experience here when using 35 at Grayson County. If you're going to the restaurant, that's the most direct and most logical way to get there.
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And asking tower for the reverse would just screw up your day?
 
When the clearance is "taxi to parking" what difference does it make which piece of concrete you use?

Captain said:
And asking tower for the reverse would just screw up your day?
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wabower said:
When the clearance is "taxi to parking" what difference does it make which piece of concrete you use?
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I don't know? You should start a thread with that question. This thread is about when tower tells you to 'expedite off the runway.'
 
Captain said:
To add, you are either 'ON' the runway or 'NOT ON' the runway. To clear on a reverse you must reverse course 'ON' the runway.

A guy at my company go violated for doing just this. The FO got a letter from the FAA even though he said at the time, "I'd go on to the next turn off."

There was traffic on short final and despite tower telling them to get off the runway they took the reverse. They still might have been okay but when the Captain called the number he was given (tower phone) he then got 'lippy' with them and basically said, 'it's my runway and I'll get off where I want'.

Well, the FAA didn't see it that way and busted him. I am friends with the FO and he is Mad Mad Mad for getting a letter even though he said, "don't do this".

Final analysis...don't take the runway turn off or the reverse high speed without permission.
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He was violated for being a douche. Your buddy just was along for the ride.
 
What's the narrowest high-speed taxiway you have encountered? When an airplane is slowed to safe speed for a 90-degree turn off of the active runway, it it your position that the plane can't turn further after clearing the runway without creating a conflict to other traffic? Would it matter if the clearance dimensions of the runway and high-speed taxiways were greater than those of a major reliever airport approximately 40 miles SSE?


Captain said:
I don't know? You should start a thread with that question. This thread is about when tower tells you to 'expedite off the runway.'
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LearDriver said:
He was violated for being a douche. Your buddy just was along for the ride.
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I agree. I've said that quite a few times. But the charge of the offense wasn't being a 'douche' or being 'lippy'. It was reversing course on the runway when tower told him to get off.

Cap'n Ron posted the AIM reference. I've noticed he's been pretty quiet though... Usually he's all about these Reg issues. I wonder why he would post a strong stance on page one and then say nothing. Weird. He's usually so dog on sure of his position. Not like him to retreat....

Oh well, back to my point...

The FAA can't bust you for being a 'douche' or 'lippy'. They can and do bust people for reversing course on a runway...especially when tower tells said aircraft to expedite off said runway.
 
Captain said:
On this you are wrong. I know you hate to hear that. Many a runway has a reverse high speed with the hold short line well back. If you make the turn to go down that path the FAA can violate you. It has happened to ATP pilots I know first hand.
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I'd like the full details on that, including the regulation cited. I've been doing that for 40 years or so without so much as a peep from any tower, including the last time I flew on Tuesday (see the diagram linked above -- landed on 14 and turned right on Delta) and the tower didn't mind a bit when I did it on my own without asking first.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, as long as your continued movement across the hold short lines is not restricted, you've truly cleared the runway when all of your aircraft is beyond the white runway side stripe.
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Good to know. Thanks.
 
I was curious and did a little research. I googled "reverse high speed runway violation" and got an interesting result. This thread is number two. Besides the hit which is number one and sounds very familiar, I don't see any other references to what you are talking about.
 
And...

If I ever have the opportunity to fly something two-pilot and I ever hear the Captain getting "lippy" with controllers on the phone after a flight, remind me to send his cell phone across the ramp at high speed, without any warning, to keep him from getting us both violated.

Flick... Oops. ;)

Sheesh... File under "Head up and locked."
 
Everskyward said:
I was curious and did a little research. I googled "reverse high speed runway violation" and got an interesting result. This thread is number two. Besides the hit which is number one and sounds very familiar, I don't see any other references to what you are talking about.
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Wow, those Google boyz rock. Yup, I posted that / this thread on BackCountryPilot.org. I did change the dates to make it true here (by that I mean I posted 6 months ago there and it was already 6 months old so I changed it to a year ago here. Just made the times correct if you see what I mean). The facts remain. Feel free to read that thread too if you like.

backcountrypilot.org

thread: Got Off My Runway

Or google it. The facts remain the same and I did speak to my FO buddy (now a Captain) tonight about it to get facts straight.
 
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Captain said:
...
My friend is flying with another 'friend' (PIC). They land 19C at KIAD. They take a reverse high speed turn off with traffic close in (some 121 turbo prop). Tower had told them to 'expidite their turn off and the Captain elected to take the reverse high speed over the FO's (my closer friends) objection. As a result, 121 turbo prop had to go around). When they got to ground ATC gave the PIC a number to call.

PIC called the number and affirmed his God giving right to get off wherever he pleased. FO (my closer friend) heard the whole phone conversation from the PIC's side. Tower was not impressed and passed it to the FAA. FO (my closer friend) got a letter that sticks for 2 years (says him) and the Captain got a 30 day suspension for reversing course on the runway without ATC approval.....

QUOTE]

May I suggest you hang around a "different set of friends":D

jus kiddin..... calm down..:rolleyes:
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Captain said:
I'm pretty sure I've told the whole story.

My friend is flying with another 'friend' (PIC). They land 19C at KIAD. They take a reverse high speed turn off with traffic close in (some 121 turbo prop). Tower had told them to 'expidite their turn off and the Captain elected to take the reverse high speed over the FO's (my closer friends) objection. As a result, 121 turbo prop had to go around). When they got to ground ATC gave the PIC a number to call.

PIC called the number and affirmed his God giving right to get off wherever he pleased. FO (my closer friend) heard the whole phone conversation from the PIC's side. Tower was not impressed and passed it to the FAA. FO (my closer friend) got a letter that sticks for 2 years (says him) and the Captain got a 30 day suspension for reversing course on the runway without ATC approval.

That's it. There is no more. That's the whole story.
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I'm not buying that until I see the paperwork. On that runway, you go out the same throat for the high speed turnoffs regardless of direction, e.g., turning off at Y4 means exiting through the same hole as Y5. For that reason, what you're saying just doesn't make sense -- whether you do the regular or reverse turnoff, you're exiting at the same point. I have to figure your pal reversed course to go back the other way before clearing, and thats why he ended up going backwards, not just making a 120-degree turn instead of a 60-degree turn directly off centerline. There just has to be more to the story than what you've told us, or perhaps more than what you were told.
 
denverpilot said:
If I ever have the opportunity to fly something two-pilot and I ever hear the Captain getting "lippy" with controllers on the phone after a flight, remind me to send his cell phone across the ramp at high speed, without any warning, to keep him from getting us both violated.
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That's a FOD hazard, I recommend immersion.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not buying that until I see the paperwork. On that runway, you go out the same throat for the high speed turnoffs regardless of direction, e.g., turning off at Y4 means exiting through the same hole as Y5. For that reason, what you're saying just doesn't make sense -- whether you do the regular or reverse turnoff, you're exiting at the same point. I have to figure your pal reversed course to go back the other way before clearing, and thats why he ended up going backwards, not just making a 120-degree turn instead of a 60-degree turn directly off centerline. There just has to be more to the story than what you've told us, or perhaps more than what you were told.
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Yes, they took Y4 instead of Y5. That's it. That's what the FAA busted them for. They made a 135 degree turn instead of a 45 degree turn and the FAA found that to be 'reversing course on the runway'.

You got it. I was not forwarded my friends certificate action paperwork so I have nothing to post here...but I can attest that that did happen. He rode the no paycheck train for a month. Two paychecks...pooof. Want his phone number? How do you propose I prove this? I am telling you what I know as FACT. I can't PROVE to you I had a cup of coffee this morning either...but I did. Want a urine sample?
 
Captain said:
Wow, those Google boyz rock. Yup, I posted that / this thread on BackCountryPilot.org. I did change the dates to make it true here (by that I mean I posted 6 months ago there and it was already 6 months old so I changed it to a year ago here. Just made the times correct if you see what I mean). The facts remain. Feel free to read that thread too if you like.
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Are there that many reverse high speed turnoffs in the backcountry? Or maybe it's all a reverse high speed. :D
 
Everskyward said:
Are there that many reverse high speed turnoffs in the backcountry? Or maybe it's all a reverse high speed. :D
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lol, no.

That was their point there and it didn't go very far. I did see their point as most of 'em land on dirt and gravel so I didn't see the point in pushing it.


HERE HOWEVER...we have many pilots that may see this and I'd like to think that maybe as a result of this thread someone might take the two seconds and get permission to reverse course and maybe...just maybe save an enforcement action.
 
Was a video of his path part of the evidence that he reversed course on the runway?


Captain said:
Yes, they took Y4 instead of Y5. That's it. That's what the FAA busted them for. They made a 135 degree turn instead of a 45 degree turn and the FAA found that to be 'reversing course on the runway'.

You got it. I was not forwarded my friends certificate action paperwork so I have nothing to post here...but I can attest that that did happen. He rode the no paycheck train for a month. Two paychecks...pooof. Want his phone number? How do you propose I prove this? I am telling you what I know as FACT. I can't PROVE to you I had a cup of coffee this morning either...but I did. Want a urine sample?
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wabower said:
Was a video of his path part of the evidence that he reversed course on the runway?
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ah, no. But the hold shorts are much closer to the parallel taxi way than the runway. They had to 'backtaxi' a ways to cross the hold short line.



edit to add: (No video that I'm aware of)
 
Captain said:
Yes, they took Y4 instead of Y5. That's it. That's what the FAA busted them for. They made a 135 degree turn instead of a 45 degree turn and the FAA found that to be 'reversing course on the runway'.

You got it. I was not forwarded my friends certificate action paperwork so I have nothing to post here...but I can attest that that did happen. He rode the no paycheck train for a month. Two paychecks...pooof. Want his phone number? How do you propose I prove this? I am telling you what I know as FACT. I can't PROVE to you I had a cup of coffee this morning either...but I did. Want a urine sample?
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Sorry -- not buying that story based on what you've written. There simply has to be more, especially since there is no regulation specifically prohibiting such a turn. Yes, I know all the Merrell case, and how that established that the FAA Counsel can advance a new interpretation for the first time as part of an enforcement action, but I just don't see merely continuing a turn onto Y5 into a turn onto Y4 being considered a course reversal on the runway.

In fact, I'm having trouble just imagining what regulation they cited. The fact that I've made such turns more times than I can count since 1969 makes me even more incredulous. There simply has to be more to the story, such as going past that hole (even just a little) and turning around to go back to Y4 rather than continuing to Y7.
 
That would seem to reinforce the FAA's position relative to the violation and also bring into question whether the use of the reverse H/S was a primary issue. IOW, he back-taxied on the runway so he could use that taxiway, but would have more than likely been violated no matter which taxiway he chose after clearing the runway. The reason I'm thinking the penalty would have been the same is because it was more from fat-mouthed the controller as opposed to the event itself.
Captain said:
ah, no. But the hold shorts are much closer to the parallel taxi way than the runway. They had to 'backtaxi' a ways to cross the hold short line.



edit to add: (No video that I'm aware of)
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Captain said:
And you're wrong too. Don't worry, you're in good company.
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When you can find a definition of "reverse" with regards to course that isn't 180*, post it up. Also, you are not heading the other direction on the runway until you are, you are heading off the side of the runway at an angle.
 
Henning said:
When you can find a definition of "reverse" with regards to course that isn't 180*, post it up. Also, you are not heading the other direction on the runway until you are, you are heading off the side of the runway at an angle.
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So your position is I can land on runway 36 (9,000 feet long) and roll it out to the right end of the runway...turn around and head straight to the South West corner of the runway and depart there? Hey...it's a 178.5 degree course and as you've said...you haven't turned around until you are.

Look. The FAA has ruled on my friend. Guilty. 30 days in the hole. Take it up with them. I suggest if you want to turn off a landing runway more than 90 degrees you do this...get permission.

Cap'n Ron...I don't even know what to ask my friend what to give you to prove it. Case number? Pay Stub showing a lost months pay? What do you want?

Why the heck isn't my word good here? Do I sound like I'm lying? Seriously?
 
Captain said:
I agree. I've said that quite a few times. But the charge of the offense wasn't being a 'douche' or being 'lippy'. It was reversing course on the runway when tower told him to get off.

Cap'n Ron posted the AIM reference. I've noticed he's been pretty quiet though... Usually he's all about these Reg issues. I wonder why he would post a strong stance on page one and then say nothing. Weird. He's usually so dog on sure of his position. Not like him to retreat....

Oh well, back to my point...

The FAA can't bust you for being a 'douche' or 'lippy'. They can and do bust people for reversing course on a runway...especially when tower tells said aircraft to expedite off said runway.
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How long have you been in this business? Acting like a douche or getting lippy with an ops instructor will get you hammered every time. Don't be so naive. At that point it's irrelevant as to what will be put on your paper work. You've been violated and unless you you have a huge surplus of cash to fight them in court, plan on taking your medicine and stop being a jerk and learn something.
 
LearDriver said:
How long have you been in this business? Acting like a douche or getting lippy with an ops instructor will get you hammered every time. Don't be so naive. At that point it's irrelevant as to what will be put on your paper work. You've been violated and unless you you have a huge surplus of cash to fight them in court, plan on taking your medicine and stop being a jerk and learn something.
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Well that may be the larger lesson here.

I'm only pointing out an obscure AIM reference that HAS been used to bust pilots. All you need to protect yourself is to get clearance before you turn past 90 degrees. That's not so bad is it?
 
Captain said:
So your position is I can land on runway 36 (9,000 feet long) and roll it out to the right end of the runway...turn around and head straight to the South West corner of the runway and depart there? Hey...it's a 178.5 degree course and as you've said...you haven't turned around until you are.

Look. The FAA has ruled on my friend. Guilty. 30 days in the hole. Take it up with them. I suggest if you want to turn off a landing runway more than 90 degrees you do this...get permission.

Cap'n Ron...I don't even know what to ask my friend what to give you to prove it. Case number? Pay Stub showing a lost months pay? What do you want?

Why the heck isn't my word good here? Do I sound like I'm lying? Seriously?
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Are you retarded?

Scan his violation letter and post it up, we all want to see that one.
 
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