LearDriver
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Henning, I love your sensitive side.:wink2:
Taking the Reverse Highspeed
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Henning, I love your sensitive side.:wink2:
Everskyward
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This is a tough crowd here as far as proof goes. If you're going to make some kind of authoritative statement you need to back it up. We are all from Missouri where the motto is "Show Me". I told you I tried to do some research on this subject and the only thing I could come up with was this thread and the one you posted on Backcountry Pilot. If it was something that was causing violations don't you think it would be all over the commercial pilot boards? Or at least have gotten a hit or two on Google?
wabower
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The story as originally presented didn't make sense, and you're the one that brought it up. Now that you have provided more facts (by answering the questions) the violation makes more sense although I personally don't think the use of the high-speed was a "probable cause" to use NTSB terminology.
Captain
Final Approach
Yes, I'm retarded.
"Say 'Bob', how ya been? Oh good...good... Ya flying this week? ...oh no...you're at home?......that's good.....okay.....oh yeah......I know......I can't believe it's still in the hangar either...ummmm.....yup.......No...I told him....So, ......The reason I called.....Henning wanted your violation letter scan......who's tha?....well, she's on an internet forum...no, I don't know who she is, ....I know...yes...I kNOW....but could you send be a copy via email? That would be swell........So when...click".
WHO'S RETARDED?
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Captain
Final Approach
Well, I've said from the word "get" that the guys attitude (being lippy) got him in trouble. But it's that reverse that the FAA used to nail him. Maybe if he took Y5 (or whatever the forward highspeed was) the FAA would have had nothing and he would have been fine....or maybe they would have just found something else. I don't know.
All I know is that in THIS instance the FAA busted him on the reverse high speed. I am not comfortable going to him and asking for a copy of his violation. I'm sorry.
HPNPilot1200
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I think I'm going to stop bothering to read this thread. Two pages later and it still doesn't matter.
Fearless Tower
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The only retarded person here is the guy who made the call and got lippy.
When a controller gives you a number to call, there are two options - either call and be polite/explain your side as rationally as possible.....or don't friggin' call, and take your chances.
But calling the number and acting like a total ass is basically going full retard.
You NEVER go full retard.
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Captain
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matthammer
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Sounds to me like your friend was violated for dilly-dallying on the runway and causing an incident after being told to expedite -- not because you need a special clearance to use a reverse high speed exit. I can't find anything in the regs mentioning that, and based on some of the other responses (including from FAA folk) my guess is there aren't any. P/O the wrong people by being "lippy" after doing something stupid (like picking one of the slowest ways off the runway after being told to expedite), and you're begging for trouble.
Oh, it's also worth pointing out that the AIM technically isn't regulatory.
Oh, it's also worth pointing out that the AIM technically isn't regulatory.
Captain
Final Approach
Oh, it's also worth pointing out that the AIM technically isn't regulatory.
I agree. Except there's this...
Personally, I think if he fought it he would have won. But most commercial pilots roll over as the FAA has demonstrated that it wins even when it's wrong. That's the way the world works these days.
LearDriver
Line Up and Wait
At least I don't believe somebody when they tell me they got a 90 day rip when their captain turned 120* onto a taxiway. I might not be a mighty airline captain, but I've been around awhile, I just don't buy it especially considering the many times I've done it. One airport I was at it was my typical exit because it was closest to my parking. I've never heard a word about doing it and this is the first time in over 20 years of this crap including quite a few years of internet forums, and this is the FIRST time I have heard of this.
So, the answer is I would consider you are the retarded one any way you cut it. Either you are retarded for believing this story or you are retarded for believing we would. Sooo... yep..you.
Everskyward
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Here's a photo of KAPA and the high-speed turnoffs. You can also see some airplanes of various sizes on the ramp. If slowed to taxi speed, none of them would need much more than a 90 degree turn on the runway to get off on the reverse high speed. If you were in a very large airplane (like what Greg flies 
) that might be different. Of course you wouldn't even see one at this airport.
) that might be different. Of course you wouldn't even see one at this airport.
Captain
Final Approach
I would point out:
1. ) I never called you anything. I simply re-asked your question. You said, "are you retarded?" I answered, "WHOS's retarded?" see the difference? You are accusing and I'm asking. (BTW, before I asked I admitted I am. Not so much from you...)
2.) you just called me retarded 4 times (maybe more...I lost count)
3.) I don't know what a 'rip' is but I never said the FO got a 90 day anything much less a 'rip'
1,2,3...you are WAY off base. I'll be happy to accept your apology but don't expect it. Either way, nice place ya got here.
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Captain
Final Approach
Here's a photo of KAPA and the high-speed turnoffs. You can also see some airplanes of various sizes on the ramp. If slowed to taxi speed, none of them would need much more than a 90 degree turn on the runway to get off on the reverse high speed. If you were in a very large airplane (like what Greg flies
Look at your own picture. You couldn't drive a remote controlled car from the runway to the hold short line without going backwards. What's your point?
Everskyward
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By the time you are going "backwards" you are on the taxiway, not the runway.
Captain
Final Approach
Maybe font size is your weak point. Let me show you what you said in a font size you get offended at!
Let's roll way back to post 80. That's the first time the term 'retarded' made it into this thread and started the name calling. Oh, that person must be just evil beyond evil. Let's see who posted post number 80...Oh Golly Jonkers...This following is YOUR POST!!
Your face must be red.
Let's roll way back to post 80. That's the first time the term 'retarded' made it into this thread and started the name calling. Oh, that person must be just evil beyond evil. Let's see who posted post number 80...Oh Golly Jonkers...This following is YOUR POST!!
Your face must be red.
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Captain
Final Approach
denverpilot
Tied Down
The point is, mixed with the knowledge that controllers consider "clear of the runway" as everything to the right of the outside WHITE runway stripe in that photo...
It's easy to get an aircraft off of 17L/35R at KAPA without reversing course at all.
As long as your not in a G-V or a big Challenger or one of Key Lime's Metroliners, that is.
I bet Teller could even squeak a Piaggio off without more than 90 degrees.
Other airports, YMMV.
We're all thinking the same thing I think here.
a) Your FO friend's Captain had his head up and locked.
b) He picked the wrong person to mess with that day.
c) Nobody can find that there is any "pattern" of this rule being used regularly for enforcement.
The "warning" seems a bit over the top in light of all of the above. Most controllers and pilots simply don't care as long as the "expeditious" flow of traffic is maintained.
The warning realky should read: "Screw up the landing sequencing when a better option is available by going the wrong way into a high-speed, and then argue with the tower on the phone about it... someone's probably going to make your life miserable. You're also going to screw over your crew (FO) who's going to make sure everyone (s)he knows, is forewarned that you're a nimrod."
That pretty well cover it?
It's easy to get an aircraft off of 17L/35R at KAPA without reversing course at all.
As long as your not in a G-V or a big Challenger or one of Key Lime's Metroliners, that is.
I bet Teller could even squeak a Piaggio off without more than 90 degrees.
Other airports, YMMV.
We're all thinking the same thing I think here.
a) Your FO friend's Captain had his head up and locked.
b) He picked the wrong person to mess with that day.
c) Nobody can find that there is any "pattern" of this rule being used regularly for enforcement.
The "warning" seems a bit over the top in light of all of the above. Most controllers and pilots simply don't care as long as the "expeditious" flow of traffic is maintained.
The warning realky should read: "Screw up the landing sequencing when a better option is available by going the wrong way into a high-speed, and then argue with the tower on the phone about it... someone's probably going to make your life miserable. You're also going to screw over your crew (FO) who's going to make sure everyone (s)he knows, is forewarned that you're a nimrod."
That pretty well cover it?
Everskyward
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You're not on the runway proper because you are past the white boundary lines that the controller here (roncachamp) mentioned. Being on the high speed turnoff is not the same as reversing course on the runway.
Captain
Final Approach
I think my point is the taxiway doesn't start until the taxiway and that's designated with the hold short lines. If you don't believe me then try to taxi up to the runway one day and blow past the hold short line.
Captain
Final Approach
So you roll right through the hold short line and pull up to the white line before you call tower to take off? Do you? Cause that's what I just heard.
Everskyward
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Ok so I shouldn't have use the word "taxiway". I've heard ATC call it the "connector". It's definitely not the runway, though.
I can see another OWT starting with this thread...
Captain
Final Approach
And look. I don't even know why I'm arguing with any of you. Fly your planes any way you want. I mentioned an issue. If you want to turn around despite clear language in the AIM because it "most likely won't get me in trouble" or "I've done it for years" then great.
Maybe I'm a liar. Yes. That's it. The FAA has NEVER violated anyone for taking the reverse so YOU ARE SAFE. NO worries. Have a splendid life. WTF do I care? I'll tell you what...I don't. I don't know any of you. Take your 135 degree turn off. Sorry I said a word.
ficken pilots.....everyone of 'em think they know everything. And the more they know the worse the problem!
Maybe I'm a liar. Yes. That's it. The FAA has NEVER violated anyone for taking the reverse so YOU ARE SAFE. NO worries. Have a splendid life. WTF do I care? I'll tell you what...I don't. I don't know any of you. Take your 135 degree turn off. Sorry I said a word.
ficken pilots.....everyone of 'em think they know everything. And the more they know the worse the problem!
denverpilot
Tied Down
Ron (who is a 20+ year tower controller) already explained that in the controller's world, you're "clear" once you're past the white line. (Note: White. Not yellow.)
Coming from the non-runway side, you stop before the yellow.
But as far as the controllers are concerned, you're off the runway after your tail is clear of the white runway side stripe.
(And Ron's pointing that out -- from the perspective of someone who can lose his job if another aircraft lands on that runway while you're not "clear". So he definitely knows what "clear" means in the controller's eyes.)
Captain Back-Taxi was a prick to the Tower. They dug and found something to slap him with at the FSDO. That's pretty much it.
If he were a U.S. Senator he might have gotten away with only some training.
(Mr. Imhofe and his, "I was told I have unlimited airspace" fun and games, landing on a closed runway.) Obviously there's leeway in enforcement. The guy choosing to claim it was "his" runway pushes all the wrong buttons with controllers. They're hired to be control-freaks after all.
Telling a controlling personality they're not in control of you, is a great way to tick them off.
Wow..... take a chill pill......
I can see your thoughts on the hold short line being the boundry for a runway incusion when coming from the taxi way and the white runway edge line coming from the active... It has neven made sense to me either.. but... it's the way the feds set it up.. like it or not.
Captain
Final Approach
The point is, mixed with the knowledge that controllers consider "clear of the runway" as everything to the right of the outside WHITE runway stripe in that photo...
It's easy to get an aircraft off of 17L/35R at KAPA without reversing course at all.
As long as your not in a G-V or a big Challenger or one of Key Lime's Metroliners, that is.
I bet Teller could even squeak a Piaggio off without more than 90 degrees.
Other airports, YMMV.
We're all thinking the same thing I think here.
a) Your FO friend's Captain had his head up and locked.
b) He picked the wrong person to mess with that day.
c) Nobody can find that there is any "pattern" of this rule being used regularly for enforcement.
The "warning" seems a bit over the top in light of all of the above. Most controllers and pilots simply don't care as long as the "expeditious" flow of traffic is maintained.
The warning realky should read: "Screw up the landing sequencing when a better option is available by going the wrong way into a high-speed, and then argue with the tower on the phone about it... someone's probably going to make your life miserable. You're also going to screw over your crew (FO) who's going to make sure everyone (s)he knows, is forewarned that you're a nimrod."
That pretty well cover it?
How many times can I say it? Really??? Yes....BUT WHAT THE FAA BUSTED HIM FOR WAS REVERSING COURSE ON THE FRICKING RUNWAY! IT'S IN THE AIM...NOT TO DO IT.....YET EVERYONE MAKES EXCUSES WHY THEY SHOULD DO IT AND I'M 'RETARDED'.
Look, if asking permission is too much then don't do it. Odds are nothing will happen. If something does happen and you say you're sorry odds are still nothing will happen. If you take the righteous road and tell the controller where to stick it then good luck to you. I tried to warn you.
PS I never called anyone 'retarded'. Others here have not the same record towards me and that needs correcting. You know who you are.
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Captain
Final Approach
And yet my colleague is still violated and lost a months pay. Go figure. Maybe HE should take a 'chill pill'?
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roncachamp
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Your word's no good here because your tale is so absurd. You sound like you've misinterpreted the incident you describe. Seriously.
roncachamp
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The taxiway starts at the edge of the runway. You're clear of the runway when all of your aircraft is past the runway edge as long as your continued movement past the hold short line is not restricted.
roncachamp
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We covered this back in post #47. When exiting a runway, the taxiway starts at the edge of the runway.
roncachamp
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Then you're hearing things that aren't there. He said nothing about taxiing TO a runway.
roncachamp
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Stop it. There is no "clear language" in the AIM that says a pilot can't turn more than 90° when exiting a runway. You're asking people to believe that something that's been done regularly for decades without violation is actually illegal. Nobody's gonna take your word for it, either post some verifiable proof or drop it.
roncachamp
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Actually, I don't believe anyone here called you "retarded" either, you were asked if you're "retarded".
You asked a question after giving the most ridiculous analogy after trying to sell a story that makes ZERO sense to any aviation professional here. If you like I'll apologize to the retarded for calling you a retard and change your tag to "Troll" if you want; I gave you the benefit of the doubt and called you retarded.
BTW a "rip" is a violation, that you have never heard of that term in your 13 year career as Airline Captain goes to further the Troll determination. 30day/90 day regardless when no violation was committed.
In + 25 years as a captain I have found one thing to be quite true, the guys that call themselves captain are nearly always full of s-t, grossly incompetent, & with drastic self image and other psychological issues.
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DutchessFlier
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Putting the popcorn down for a moment....
Why were both pilots violated? and is that normal / standard procedure to violate both crewmembers when one was actually flying and the other not controlling the aircraft?
Just curious....
Picking up the popcorn...
Why were both pilots violated? and is that normal / standard procedure to violate both crewmembers when one was actually flying and the other not controlling the aircraft?
Just curious....
Picking up the popcorn...
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
I have done this at this airport at that turnoff and not had a problem. In my 135 charter aircraft, I am slower than any of the jets coming in, so they frequently ask me to "expedite." All that is necessary is to slow enough to make the turn and then continue the turn around to the reverse side. No reprimand, no violation. Probably even got a thanks for helping. Admittedly, I don't take near the runway space as a fast jet.
My guess, admittedly not fact, is that when asked to expedite, they were just passing the turnoff, and the captain made a decision to slow drastically and turn around to get to the "nearest" turnoff. That actually would have slowed the departure process instead of expediting it. Thus they would have actually turned around on the runway and headed back the other direction, albeit not very far. Slowing to do a 180 on the runway to get to the nearest turnoff is not the same as "expedite turnoff." It takes longer.
My guess, admittedly not fact, is that when asked to expedite, they were just passing the turnoff, and the captain made a decision to slow drastically and turn around to get to the "nearest" turnoff. That actually would have slowed the departure process instead of expediting it. Thus they would have actually turned around on the runway and headed back the other direction, albeit not very far. Slowing to do a 180 on the runway to get to the nearest turnoff is not the same as "expedite turnoff." It takes longer.
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