Does ATC care how you enter a hold?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by gbanker, May 28, 2020.

  1. gbanker

    gbanker Filing Flight Plan

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    For example , if you enter a hold via a teardrop when you were supposed to do a parallel entry will you get yelled at?
     
  2. Deelee

    Deelee Line Up and Wait

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    No as long as you stay on the protected side.
     
  3. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    ^.. yes, but you'll look like a total n00b!
     
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  4. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Ever seen a hod entry from a ATC radar position?
     
  5. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Nope.
     
  6. Deelee

    Deelee Line Up and Wait

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    Ok ok, valid point... Just make it look pretty when you look at your track on FF
     
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  7. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    For what it's worth, I really *hate* parallel entries.. they look ugly on your FF and if there are multiple clowns going around the race track and you cruise into it at the same altitude parallel then you're basically swimming upstream, and you're not really on the protected side.. at least the slow rate at which many people do the turn, twist, time, throttle, talk thing by the time they're flying outbound they're way on the wrong side. Frankly, imho they should be either teardrop or direct

    haha no, I was mostly just kidding though, Deelee got it. I have been to a tracon tour twice though and seen the 1960s James Bond looking things.. this is also where I discovered that these guys don't see the exact layer cake bravo boundaries

    Awesomely low tech, our ATC guys do a tremendous job with the tools they're given
     
  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You probably care much more than ATC does.
     
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  9. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If there is someone besides you in the holding pattern at the same altitude, there is something seriously wrong.
     
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  10. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    I know, it's just a dumb phobia I have. The one here that everybody practices around freaks me out.
     
  11. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The only one who cares about what entry you use is the DPE on your checkride. After that, do what works.

    [Note: or so I've been told]
     
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  12. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    The standard holding pattern entries are recommendations, not requirements.

    The important thing is to remain in the protected airspace. The recommended entry procedures are designed to ensure that you do.

    AIM 5-3-8.j.3.(d) While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
     
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  13. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Uh...that's not how it works. You should never be in the same hold at the same altitude with another aircraft.
     
  14. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route PoA Supporter

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    The scale of the scopes I have seen when visiting ATC facilities back in the day was such that a holding pattern (if displayed) would take up about an inch, so unless your entry method is wildly wrong the controller would probably not see it. "Where are you going?" is the unofficial controller phraseology when this happens. My guess is that as soon as you read back the holding instructions the controller pretty much forgets about you until it is time for a further clearance, based on the assumption that you know what you are doing.
    Bob Gardner
     
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  15. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Most controllers are unaware of holding entries.
     
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  16. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Why?
     
  17. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The controller only cares when you exit the hold for the approach.
     
  18. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I don’t even remember entries being taught in Navy / Marine ATCS. Not sure about FAA academy syllabus but just asked a friend and he said had no training other than personal studies. Same goes for protected airspace. It can be put on radar video maps (ours didn’t) for “outer fixes” but not required. I didn’t have a clue about protected area criteria until I attended a TERPS class in the Army.

    So no, I’d say most controllers don’t care about the entry, nor do they have the entries memorized.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  19. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    If you only used teardrop or direct, how would you fly this standard departure to the hold at Reno?

    FMG8.jpg

    If you did a teardrop, you'd end up on the non-protected side of the hold once you passed the VOR and if you did a direct entry, you'd have to turn to 41° before you got to the VOR.
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    It's just a desire, like the abandonment of stop signs and red lights and just have "yield" everywhere

    But, to to answer the question, it wouldn't be impossible to tear-drop this
    upload_2020-5-28_19-48-0.png

    **PS - to the replies about the same altitude thing, etc. You are all right. And the AIM, etc., was written (largely) to help us be safer, better pilots. Doesn't mean I have to love parallel entries..
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    The “unprotected” side is actually protected about 2/3 as far from the course line as the protected side....even the FAA isn’t dumb enough to recommend flying into unprotected airspace.

    But FWIW, I don’t do parallel entries unless the automation is doing it for me. To me it’s two entries in one, and more disorienting for the passengers.
     
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  22. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Pattern Altitude

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    That would be a pretty big turn. I guess I have flown this particular one so many times that I am just used to it. I fly parallel on 41° and then basically do your teardrop turn after 45 seconds or so depending on the wind (always windy here).

    So would you do it like the blue line in the post above? I have never heard of anyone doing that here.
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Yup...teardrop unless it’s obviously direct.
     
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  24. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    THere's no protected "side." Both sides of the holding course have protection, just one is bigger than the other.
     
  25. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I found this
    OK, so the "more protected side." :D
     
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  26. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    Don’t laugh. Ok, you can. Parallel entry:

    3BC7A5EE-8FEB-4627-A461-82537E13281D.jpeg
     
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  27. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

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    Years ago there was an argument amongst the flight instructors at our school about whether a certain procedure turn was required or not. The next time I shot the approach, I asked the controller what they expected us to do. She responded, “I never know what to expect from you pilots”. :)
     
  28. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Were you taken aback that her response seemed to have something to do with dating pilots?
     
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  29. RussR

    RussR Pattern Altitude

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    Common misunderstanding - there is no “unprotected side” of a holding pattern. The protected airspace on the opposite side from the holding direction has slightly less area, but still way more than you will ever need in a typical light GA airplane. Even the smallest holding pattern size has 3.5 nm of protection on the non-holding side, measured perpendicular to the holding course.

    In a typical light GA airplane, you could actually fly the complete holding pattern backwards (left turns instead of right for example) and STILL have plenty of obstacle protection.

    Remember, these holding pattern areas are designed for holding at the maximum authorized airspeed (200/230/265 kias depending on altitude), with an extremely adverse wind direction and lousy pilot technique. There’s a LOT of protection.
     
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  30. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    For visual learners, here's my treatise on the matter: https://www.avclicks.com/presentations/No Holds Barred/
     
  31. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    They don't have a clue and likely aren't watching you enter the hold in any case.
     
  32. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    I agree, except for the lousy pilot technique part. That is open ended.
     
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  33. AU_James

    AU_James Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just learned about this in my IR course. In the Sporty's course, they specifically say that pattern entry method is not a requirement, only that you hold as instructed or charted (which is that the inbound leg is to the point defining the hold and that the hold is on the side you're told). They even go so far as to describe how military training typically simplifies holds to either direct or parallel and gets rid of teardrop completely (or maybe they get rid of parallel and keep teardrop, point is it doesn't matter).

    The course also shows how the protected area is determined (based on holding speeds at various altitudes) and shows that although most of the protected area is indeed on the holding side, the non-holding side is also protected as mentioned above. I think it was that 2/3 of the protected area is on the holding side and the other 1/3 is on the non-holding side.

    Bottom line, holds are not precision maneuvers. Understand the purpose and understand where you're expected to be and for how long and of course do your best to make your holds look pretty on the flight track. Oh, and nail it exactly how you're "supposed to" for the test.
     
  34. aterpster

    aterpster En-Route

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    For my entire airline career we were required to enter a hold on every sim PC. We had to do the correct entry of the three, with a +/- 5 degree tolerance. These were early jets, such as the 707 or 727, which worked best holding at max permitted holding speed.
     
  35. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    Not sure where lies the fault, but here are a few screenshots of your presentation as displayed on a Samsung Galaxy S4 running Firefox in landscape mode...

    Screenshot_20200529-131553_Firefox.jpg Screenshot_20200529-131609_Firefox.jpg Screenshot_20200529-131631_Firefox.jpg
     
  36. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Sheesh! Good to know, thank you. I recently updated all the slides to run on the latest tablets and smart phones. I'll see what I can find out.
     
  37. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    That's what I would do, for what it's worth.
     
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  38. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    I found out this:
    For mobile devices, for Android users need to use Google Chrome, for iOS - Safari. iOS 9.х or higher (for iPad and iPhone) and Android 4.4 or higher.
     
  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    It's smoother and less likely to mess up orientation. Make one 90 degree turn to the right, then after one minute (or whatever) turn back to the left on the inbound heading, and bang, you're basically in the hold.. also, outside of that initial turn to the right, you're always turning in the same direction (left), in that example. If you parallel that you make a slightly shallower turn at first (sure), but then crank in a u-turn one direction, and then quickly after another u-turn to the other direction.. I see lots of goofs when entering the OCN VOR-A hold here as a parallel, people undershoot, overshoot, etc., it's a mess. Parallels have a lot of manuevering before you're actually in the turn.
     
  40. Hacker

    Hacker Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The FMS in the transport category aircraft I fly at work rarely does the "proper" hold entry.