Do you too dislike lying/cheating pilots? [mini-rant]

BigBadLou

BigBadLou

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Lou
Last Saturday was not the first time this happened but it happened twice on the same day and it is starting to make me wonder how many lying yahoos are flying out there possibly causing trouble.

Scenario 1: I am a few feet below a deck on an IFR flight plan, ATC calls up a VFR airplane, gives them my position and the pilot immediately replies "in sight". Then ATC calls me and gives me the position of the other airplane that is 500ft above me, 11 o'clock, opposite direction. I immediately reply without thinking "negative contact, I am right below a solid deck". ATC thanks me and then I wonder whether I inadvertently outed a liar on frequency but then stop worrying about it. Not my problem right now, he's not that close to me to cause a problem.

Scenario 2: flying in a solid thick cloud layer, ATC issues me a traffic advisory for a VFR aircraft at 11 o'clock, 4 miles, same altitude, heading toward me with a note "he's not talking to me, maintain visual separation". I wonder about my IFR altitude and his IFR altitude if he's not talking to ATC, especially in clouds. With a concern in my voice, I report "unable, I am in solid IMC". I get an immediate descent (we are nearing destination anyway) which put me out of his proximity.


So why do pilots lie and cheat like this? Do they not realize that they are putting their lives on the line? I know that the airspace is big and collisions are not that frequent but c'mon, blind in the clouds?

I am definitely thankful for ATC having to guarantee separation for IFR traffic because had that not been the case, I would not have gotten a call and a descent. (in the second case)

</rant>
 
Also keep in mind there are holes in clouds, edges of clouds, etc, just because you were IMC doesn't mean a guy 4mi away was IMC.

I've also been under rather thin layers, beneath it looked OVC, above you could see right through it, weather can be funny like that.

Is there a decent chance they were IMC without being under IFR (if that makes sense), yeah, is there also a chance they were VMC, yup. Just sayin, don't be droppin the hammer too quick
 
Well, They're definitely out there. I've been on the field in Santa Monica with a solid 600 foot ceiling, approach minimums at 900 AGL for the VOR/GPS-A (which has since been amended), and heard pilots report field in sight and continue descent to landing below MDA with no chance in hell that they could see the airport. It's a bummer, and sometimes all you can do is shake your head and think "Thank goodness I know better."
 
Lou, you know that problem of being unable to see that traffic call out is easily solved with this new contraption...

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In scenario # 2 what Class of airspace were you in? Its possible that the other aircraft could of been operating in uncontrolled airspace. If thats the case its perfectly legal to operate in IMC with no flight plan and talking to no one if the pilot is rated for instrument flight and the aircraft is equipped for instrument flight. Not very wise but legal.
 
One would think if he was really trying to pull one over he would have his transponder off? Maybe not.
 
And I thought this was going to be a political thread... :O

Seriously, though, it seems to happen more than we think. Big sky theory and all that. Truthfully, though, its hard for the FAA to enforce unless something happens or they're in the cockpit with you (or otherwise see it). The other pilot can say "I was 5 miles away and conditions were fine there" or something to that effect.

Unfortunate, but there are folks that either think they can get away with it or don't think the rules apply to them. There are some that even toss meat bombs (skydivers) out to dive through solid decks.
 
avi8tor said:
In scenario # 2 what Class of airspace were you in? Its possible that the other aircraft could of been operating in uncontrolled airspace. If thats the case its perfectly legal to operate in IMC with no flight plan and talking to no one if the pilot is rated for instrument flight and the aircraft is equipped for instrument flight. Not very wise but legal.
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Not really.. Sure, one can operate in class G(above 1200) in IMC with no plan or ATC, but you are not going to be routed that way if you HAVE the plan and are talking to ATC. That's my understanding. Also. Class G above 1200 is a pretty rare thing now days.
 
There are some kinds of lying and cheating I don't give a damn about. Deliberately flying in IMC while VFR is one that really gets my dander up because it endangers all of us who legally fly IFR. I'd not think twice about dropping a dime on someone I was 100% certain was doing that. But that said, the devil is in the details... and as others have said, in most cases where you think someone is doing it, it's not possible to be 100% certain.

But definitely, reply truthfully to queries from ATC and don't feel you have to hold back to avoid "being a rat". If the result is that a scofflaw pilot gets busted, that's a good outcome in my book. The evidence would have to be strong and I'm pretty sure ATC knows it, so I wouldn't worry about being the agent that gets an innocent pilot busted... as long as you reply truthfully.
 
I took off after a fuel stop at a sleepy little airport into IMC one day (on an IFR flight plan, of course), entering the clag at about 1000' AGL and completely socked in until I broke out several 1000' later.

As I'm climbing, I notice my iFly is flaking out a little and showing myself as a traffic target; the target is pretty much overlapping my ownship symbol and 50-100' below. There's no way this could be actual traffic...there was no one else at that airport, and who could be so closely matching my course and climb rate for so long? I monitor it for a while as the traffic filter tries to decide if it's really me or not, watching the target blink on and off periodically for several minutes, thinking I might report the behavior to the developers so they can improve the filter logic.

ATC suddenly calls me and asks if I have the trailing traffic in sight. Um, what? Do they have another echo? Yes, there's a plane in trail and it's very close, and they're not talking or squawking. Can I see him? No--I'm in solid IMC and have been for ~5 minutes! Okay, turn left 20 degrees and continue climb.

Right as I change course I punch out of the clouds into clear sky above. I still don't really believe there's anyone there, but I crane to look at my 4:00-5:00, and sure enough, there's a plane almost close enough for me to read the tail #, but not quite (ATC asked me for it if I could get it). If I'd had a passenger who could take a pic with a decent camera phone, we probably could have blown it up and gotten it easily.

As I watched the traffic target diverge, I silently apologized to the iFly developers and spent the rest of the flight trying to unclench.
 
genna said:
Not really.. Sure, one can operate in class G(above 1200) in IMC with no plan or ATC, but you are not going to be routed that way if you HAVE the plan and are talking to ATC. That's my understanding. Also. Class G above 1200 is a pretty rare thing now days.
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I think it was EdFred who reported getting a clearance and talking to ATC through the G somewhere along the northern US border. So it is possible, just not very likely, as you say, because there isn't a lot of G space left above 1200. (Also, I suspect the OP would know if he was in G space, especially since it's so rare.)
 
I have been on both sides of this. In the position of the guy who believed another guy was VFR in less than VFR conditions, and the guy who was reported by another pilot to ATC as "definitely in IMC" and "just popped out of the cloud" when I absolutely was in VFR conditions. Sometimes our perception may be incorrect.
 
James331 said:
I've also been under rather thin layers, beneath it looked OVC, above you could see right through it, weather can be funny like that.
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You can also see clouds disturbed by the airliners that's right under the tops. There's a distinct trail, as long as they are not too deep inside the cloud. However, this only explains first encounter, not the second one.
 
Pilot lies are only exceeded by fisherman lies.... and politician lies.... and preacher lies.... and... well I'm sure there are others.
 
To all concerned, yes, the other airplanes could have been in VMC if there was a gap where they were. The possibility is there since I wasn't there. But if you are in/under/over a thick solid deck, you get my point.
If somebody is skimming under/over the clouds with not enough clearance, at least they can see around them and are only partially unsafe. Yes, IFR traffic exiting clouds will be in for a surprise but at least they should be able to see them at the last second. As compared to VFR in IMC where they wouldn't see them .... well they would, but really in the actual one last second. :(

Agreed that people in general lie but I hold us pilots to a higher standard. Given the extra training we undergo and the skillset we have. I take it most of us take pride in our flying while others put us to shame. Oh well.
I just felt like ranting a little because I do not consider this cool/kosher/okay.
We are pilots, dangit, if we don't keep the skies safe, who will?
(though the pessimist in me says "and who gives a s***??")
 
If I get a VFR traffic call and I am in IMC I do let the controller know I am in IMC and have no chance of seeing the traffic. And then I quit worrying about it.
 
dell30rb said:
If I get a VFR traffic call and I am in IMC I do let the controller know I am in IMC and have no chance of seeing the traffic. And then I quit worrying about it.
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I would, and ask Victor for a vector away from that target.
 
I think they should have a new Rating.... like FMC (#!@k Meteorological Conditions).... for those "Fellows" flying through F5 Tornados (Cause F1 - F4 is for wimps), Lava from a vicious volcano, A whirlpool in the Atlantic, A detonated nuclear warhead, and Mars.... sure, just let the man fly to mars....
 
I spend a lot of time on the interstate and usually drive close to the speed limit. Many cars pass me and they are obviously speeding. I don't flag them down or get their license plate number or call the cops. I simply worry about my own vehicle because I don't know what's going on in theirs. Have speeders ever caused a wreck? Sure, but it's not my place to police the roads and I'm not morally obligated to report them. Meddlesome personalities tend to create more problems than they solve. IMHO, of course.

Judging cloud distances is very tricky, don't be so quick to condemn. You should give your fellow pilot the benefit of the doubt.
 
I dislike lying and cheating people all of the time--in the air, on the ground, driving, walking, sitting, at work, at church, at home, at the store . . . All liars and all cheaters are aggravating all of the time.

Yes, I too have had to avoid VFR traffic in the clouds, just after I had to get a pop up clearance to land. Didn't care for that, either, maintaining separation kept me high for too long, and it was tough getting down. Said VFR traffic crossed behind me at the same altitude I had been at pre-clearance, and was between my altitude in the clouds and where I broke out.

All liars are aggravating, all of the time and everywhere. (This is not me being repetitively redundant; in the Deep South, additional negatives simply add more emphasis to the negativeness.)
 
Believe me, I'm solid in the soup on an ILS into the next airport over. ATC calls traffic ahead of me and I'm solid in the soup. Since I've just hit the fix in the HPILT I opt for another loop around the pattern until the bogie moves on. Turns out after I land that the bogie are TWO LOCAL FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS. One is under the hood and the other allows him to venture into IMC. Hooded pilot finds out afterwards and is aghast. I no longer have any respect for the "safety pilot" flight instructor. We could have all ended up a sooty spot on Buffalo Shoals road.
 
avi8tor said:
In scenario # 2 what Class of airspace were you in? Its possible that the other aircraft could of been operating in uncontrolled airspace. If thats the case its perfectly legal to operate in IMC with no flight plan and talking to no one if the pilot is rated for instrument flight and the aircraft is equipped for instrument flight. Not very wise but legal.
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Say what?
 
paflyer said:
Say what?
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah I am new but just finished air spaces and I don't recall any VFR pilot being allowed in any airspace in IMC. U could be 1 ft from the cloud in , but u still can't be in the cloud ...but hey..what do I know

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah I am new but just finished air spaces and I don't recall any VFR pilot being allowed in any airspace in IMC. U could be 1 ft from the cloud in , but u still can't be in the cloud ...but hey..what do I know

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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You're right. A clearance is not required in uncontrolled airspace, but an instrument rating is.
 
MAKG1 said:
You're right. A clearance is not required in uncontrolled airspace, but an instrument rating is.
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Plus, in uncontrolled airspace, the OP's conversations with ATC wouldn't be taking place.
 
Cooter said:
I spend a lot of time on the interstate and usually drive close to the speed limit. Many cars pass me and they are obviously speeding. I don't flag them down or get their license plate number or call the cops. I simply worry about my own vehicle because I don't know what's going on in theirs. Have speeders ever caused a wreck? Sure, but it's not my place to police the roads and I'm not morally obligated to report them. Meddlesome personalities tend to create more problems than they solve. IMHO, of course.

Judging cloud distances is very tricky, don't be so quick to condemn. You should give your fellow pilot the benefit of the doubt.
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Speeding is not a great analogy. You can see and avoid speeders for the most part. To me, it's more akin to folks driving around with their headlights off at night.
 
My $.02 on the thread...I think there are folks busting clouds (I've experienced situations similar to what others have described here), but more common are people busting cloud clearance limits. Mostly because they're lazy and figure they are VFR in their own mind, cutting the corners of a cloud, scraping below a layer, or zooming above a layer. To be honest, I doubt there are many among us who haven't passed a little closer than required when descending through a scattered cloud layer. My personal antidote to having that happen again was to get my instrument rating, which I did many years ago. Now I have no excuses.
 
When flying in Alaska there are three types of flight. VFR, IFR and PVFR.

If the weather is good, fly VFR.

If the weather is bad, fly IFR.

If the weather is really bad, fly PVFR.
 
I can confess to two lies I tell controllers.

1) occasionally I'll know the ATIS is, for example W, and I'll check on and say I've got Whiskey at (airport). This is untrue because I don't have the full information but it reduces radio work and I listen to/write the whole thing anyway.
2) I tell controllers I have the airport in sight before I actually do. Sometimes I get immediate "contact tower" or "radar services terminated, freq change approved" and other times I get a traffic call, stay with me, and then when the traffic is no factor I get the previous options.

So, sometimes I'm a liar. I justify it by thinking I'm reducing the workload on both sides of the antenna.

What do the PoA controllers think of this?
 
Ravioli said:
I can confess to two lies I tell controllers.

1) occasionally I'll know the ATIS is, for example W, and I'll check on and say I've got Whiskey at (airport). This is untrue because I don't have the full information but it reduces radio work and I listen to/write the whole thing anyway.
2) I tell controllers I have the airport in sight before I actually do. Sometimes I get immediate "contact tower" or "radar services terminated, freq change approved" and other times I get a traffic call, stay with me, and then when the traffic is no factor I get the previous options.

So, sometimes I'm a liar. I justify it by thinking I'm reducing the workload on both sides of the antenna.

What do the PoA controllers think of this?
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Not a controller, but I don't think either of these are a great idea. Relatively small issues in the big scheme, but essentially, you're accepting responsibility for something you don't have yet. Landing at the wrong airport because it's "somewhere over there" and you don't have it in sight yet, will increase workload. So will not having the ATIS just yet -- there may be something important on it (like, say, a special procedure or a temporary closure).

It's worse to say "traffic in sight" when it isn't (even if you have it on the traffic display). If you want to change frequencies early, you can ask to change frequencies early or just cancel flight following. I've only gotten resistance from that if there was a simultaneous traffic call.

In a high workload environment, you do have the option of reporting "negative ATIS." I'll do that sometimes on an instrument approach into Palo Alto, since I have to blast through Moffett's airspace to do so, and it's not a great idea to be off frequency. Moffett isn't very busy, but sometimes they drop CANG meat bombs through there, even at night or in poor weather.
 
Don't talk to me about "traffic in sight" because it's on your display.... That will launch me into my personal rant about ADS-B in jockeys that get a traffic call and immediately look at their iPad instead of out the window and the "pros" with fish finders. Meh.

But I do see your point. Both of my lies occur in areas I'm very familiar with and now that I've confessed I can go forth and sin no more.
 
BigBadLou said:
So why do pilots lie and cheat like this? Do they not realize that they are putting their lives on the line? I know that the airspace is big and collisions are not that frequent but c'mon, blind in the clouds?</rant>
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They probably aren't ... how many pilots complain of other pilot's position reports?

My area doesn't get over-cast often, but when I'm near clouds (legal distance), it is quite simple to understand the purpose of the cloud clearance requirements - if you're offset 2000 laterally and imagine something exiting that cloud at 200 miles per hour ... not much time to react. Even at 10,000+ altitude, a mile seems pretty close if target traffic is coming your way fast at 03:00 and you've just begun another sweeping scan beginning at 09:00, you're probably going to get hit if the other pilot doesn't spot you by the time your head scans all the way to 03:00.
 
Ravioli said:
I can confess to two lies I tell controllers.

1) occasionally I'll know the ATIS is, for example W, and I'll check on and say I've got Whiskey at (airport). This is untrue because I don't have the full information but it reduces radio work and I listen to/write the whole thing anyway.
2) I tell controllers I have the airport in sight before I actually do. Sometimes I get immediate "contact tower" or "radar services terminated, freq change approved" and other times I get a traffic call, stay with me, and then when the traffic is no factor I get the previous options.

So, sometimes I'm a liar. I justify it by thinking I'm reducing the workload on both sides of the antenna.

What do the PoA controllers think of this?
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I just told an approach controller that he can hand me off to tower and I would find the airport on my own. That worked.
 
"Field in sight" in the NY Bravo isn't always a guaranteed hand-off to tower. I tried that after I realized I was being vectored the very long way around to enter the pattern. Approach controller said it'd be another couple minutes before the hand-off. Oh well.
 
Jeez, just realized I'm a chronic liar to ATC. I frequently report that I have my home field in sight, when in fact I generally have everything around but the field in sight (it's in a small, narrow, wooded valley). I've been known to report the airport in sight when I only had the island that the airport was on in sight. I mean, if I can find a four square mile island, how hard can it be to find the strip on it?
 
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