Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Helicopter crash into airliner.

kyleb said:
It's been a moment since I wrote that, but I think my point was if the heli was at or below 200', which I understood was the altitude for that route, and if visual separation was in effect too, theoretically there would have been 2 layers of protection between the two aircraft. So, even if the visual separation wasn't maintained there would have been an altitude difference.
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How high would the PAPIs for 33 put the CRJ at the point of the collision?
 
Velocity173 said:
You know, unless there’s more audio that shows tower gave a proper traffic call, “do you have the CRJ in sight” is not a traffic call. How’s Pat25 even going to be able to tell a CRJ at night?

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7:10

Tower points PAT25 to a CRJ landing 33 at 1,100 and PAT25 responds he has visual and himself requests visual separation, which was approved. This was 1:10 before the incident. Immediately before tower asks again if PAT25 has it in sight and PAT25 affirms he does and says visual separation (8:15). About 10 seconds later is the collision
 
Well now the pics I’m seeing in the water appear to be a UH-60L and not a VH-60M “gold top” as originally reported. Might very well not be equipped with ADS-B out, but should have CVR and FDR. No glass, no auto pilot.
 
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Larry in TN said:
You'll read lots of things before the correct information comes out.

That type of military helicopter has ADSB-OUT but not ADSB-IN. That is why its ground track and altitudes were available immediately on the flight tracking sites.
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And you yourself are also putting out false information. A track on adsbexchange or flightradar24 doesn’t imply ADSB-out due to MLAT as I, and others, have told you repeatedly.

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live

ADS-B Exchange - track aircraft live - aircraft flight history
globe.adsbexchange.com globe.adsbexchange.com

Check the info block for PAT25. There is no ADSB version vs v2 for the CRJ
 
AKiss20 said:

7:10

Tower points PAT25 to a CRJ landing 33 at 1,100 and PAT25 responds he has visual and himself requests visual separation, which was approved. This was 1:10 before the incident. Immediately before tower asks again if PAT25 has it in sight and PAT25 affirms he does and says visual separation (8:15). About 10 seconds later is the collision
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Well I was wonder if there was extended audio out there. Gave him a traffic call and was acknowledged. Not on the tower.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well I was wonder if there was extended audio out there. Gave him a traffic call and was acknowledged. Not on the tower.
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Given that tower was also understaffed and operating both primary local and heli when, as others have said here, that is usually 2 people, think he did as well as could possibly be expected. This is looking to be 100% on the heli IMO.
 
MauleSkinner said:
How high would the PAPIs for 33 put the CRJ at the point of the collision?
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Ridiculously close, I think. I've seen elsewhere that 33 and that helo route should not be used simultaneously, but I dunno if that is correct.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That seems to be the consensus, which means @AKiss20 ’s “100% on the heli” is probably off by a significant margin.
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Well I’ll change my statement if an official FAA document comes out saying that official policy is that landing 33 and route 1 cannot be operated simultaneously. So far all I’ve heard is speculation and hearsay. I’ve looked on the Heli chart for DC and don’t see any verbiage to that effect. Maybe it wouldn’t be there and only in some internal FAA document, but those are often FOIA-able and I’m sure people will try.

Even then when the heli affirms visual contact and separation twice, still going to mostly put it on him. Call it 90/10 in that situation.
 
All the technology and procedures in the world won’t ever erase the PIC’s responsibility to see and avoid in a VMC environment because there’s both human error and acceptable error in the technology and equipment, not to mention malfunctions.

I’m curious how complacent at visual lookout and mid-air collision avoidance pilots have become with the introduction of ADS-B on panels and in the EFB.
 
Deelee said:
The speculation going on right now on the news outlets is worse than I have ever seen. I don't usually watch the news, but I figured I'd see what they are saying since this is aviation related and happened 15 miles from my house. And wow. It is terrible. These aviation 'experts'.... This thread has more intelligent information than any of these news feeds combined.
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Only once in my life have I been able to watch the news’ analysis of a crash I personally witnessed (Reno 2011). It was pathetic how wrong they were, all because they’d rather be first than correct. Hasn’t gotten any better.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well now the pics I’m seeing in the water appear to be a UH-60L and not a VH-60M “gold top” as originally reported. Might very well not be equipped with ADS-B out, CVR and FDR. No glass, no auto pilot.
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I was curious if they had Lima's and Mikes, or if that unit was Mike pure. You answered my question on the Voice and Data Recorder (VADR) a few posts back. Another question I have is the type of NVG's they were using. White phosphor, or Green? White offers better clarity, but can be challenging in certain light conditions. I'm still getting used to them, but don't want to go back to green anytime soon.
 

Good compilation of the ATC audio, including splicing across the heli and primary tower frequency.
 
Roller said:
No


When 60 American passengers and 4 America crew die to protect a a VIP training mission, that’s a wrap, game over.

We need to roll back everything post 9/11, it was stupid and never made sense, the beauty of America is if you kill one of our politicians we just elect another one

I am not going to sacrifice my family for your “VIPs”, let alone for a VIP training mission
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Wow. Maybe you better "roller" back in the hangar and stay on the ground.
 
AV8R_87 said:
I hope this mishap and the potential ATC understaffing won't be used as ammo by the ardent proponents of ATC privatization.
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Related question: Do the privatized tower employees have a path forward to bigger/better controller jobs, or does being a private ATC guy/gal create a ceiling on their career aspirations.

Where I'm going with this is trying to understand whether privatization has created a smaller pool to backfill openings at larger/busier airports?
 
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Flymy47 said:
Wow. Maybe you better "roller" back in the hangar and stay on the ground.
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If we want military choppers to fly at night with night vision goggles at locations where a mistake of 100 ft separation can mean mass casualty situation then thats fine … but when a tragedy happens lets make it 30 years of hard labor for everyone 3 levels up the chain of command who end up authorizing a flight like that.
 
Velocity173 said:
Being a VIP has nothing to do with the accident. ATC wasn’t giving them priority.

I was making the distinction between a unit (160th) who might very well be lights out over a city and a unit (VIP) that would have no reason to be lights out over a city. Not only that, as I stated, per reg they are required to have lights on per host nation requirements. They do get relief just as any civ pilot does as in 91.209. A moot point since it was clearly flashing in the vid.
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So if it was a R44 doing a tour it would have been allowed the same track?
 
Reagan is a lousy place for an airport anyways. I say we close it, route all traffic to Dulles, and extend the Metro west. Then we won't have to worry about those darn military flights.
 
Flymy47 said:
Wow. Maybe you better "roller" back in the hangar and stay on the ground.
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If it’s going to get me killed so a “VIP” can get his training done, I sure as hell will

I won’t be sacrifice myself for the crown, there is no honor there
 
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It may just be me, but it seemed the last couple years we’d heard of more near misses on regular TV news than ever before. I mentioned to my wife back in November that this predicts a big one happening soon.

When the dust settles and the final cause analysis comes out, if properly done and trustworthy, I am guessing that there will have been something systemic as one of the causes, not just individual pilot or controller error.

Had all of the prior near-miss cause analyses been properly done, along with selection and implementation of proper corrective actions, this may well have been prevented. That is the real tragedy if indeed the case (poor/no analysis; selection of incorrect preventative actions; and/or slow, or lack, or poor execution of actions).
 
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Flymy47 said:
I was curious if they had Lima's and Mikes, or if that unit was Mike pure. You answered my question on the Voice and Data Recorder (VADR) a few posts back. Another question I have is the type of NVG's they were using. White phosphor, or Green? White offers better clarity, but can be challenging in certain light conditions. I'm still getting used to them, but don't want to go back to green anytime soon.
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Friend said they have 3 companies at the 12th. A pure VIP with 4 VH-60Ms “Gold Tops.” Two general support companies for VIP support, QRF, disaster response, etc. One with Limas and one with Mikes.

Not sure about NVGs. There was talk about white phosphor when I was retiring but I thought it would be allocated to you all and not big Army. Apparently they’re not much more expensive than ANVIS though. Day HUD was coming out as well. Not sure if the Army bought into that or not.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
It may just be me, but it seemed the last couple years we’d heard of more near misses on regular TV news than ever before. I mentioned to my wife back in November that this predicts a big one happening soon.

When the dust settles and the final cause analysis comes out, if properly done and trustworthy, I am guessing that there will have been something systemic as one of the causes.
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you completely lost me at " I heard it on regular TV news"
 
kyleb said:
Related question: Do the privatized tower employees have a path forward to bigger/better controller jobs, or does being a private ATC guy/gal create a ceiling on their career aspirations.

Where I'm going with this is trying to understand whether privatization has created a smaller pool to backfill openings at larger/busier airports?
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Contract (not privatized) towers outnumber FAA towers.

Staffing levels may be the reverse though, because many contract towers have reduced service hours and lower volumes than federal towers.

DCA, for example, is a 24/7 federal tower operation. SSF (my local contract tower, Class D reliever for SAT) only provides services 15hrs/day. Even then, DCA has a higher staffing levels than SAT despite both being level 9 towers.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There was no “VIP” getting training done.
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So it was pointless to the third degree?

Could we have a poll, who is willing to risk their airline traveling lives, or their families lives, for the establishment to play war games, do “VIP” aka more important than your kids, trips, etc?

Basically you’ll high five your current politician if your family member dies so long as it doesn’t inconvenience them?


That’s kissing the ring with tongue
 
Warmi said:
If we want military choppers to fly at night with night vision goggles at locations where a mistake of 100 ft separation can mean mass casualty situation then thats fine
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The aircraft were not being separated by altitude. In no situation would a helicopter be allowed to fly under an airplane landing on 33 at that position based on the helicopter staying at, or below, 200'. The separation standard being applied was visual separation.

Roller said:
So if it was a R44 doing a tour it would have been allowed the same track?
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Yes. Or a police helicopter, or a medivac helicopter, etc.

Ed Haywood said:
I say we close it, route all traffic to Dulles, and extend the Metro west.
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The Metro already goes to IAD.

455 Bravo Uniform said:
It may just be me, but it seemed the last couple years we’d heard of more near misses on regular TV news than ever before.
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The interwebs make the information about them much more available and causes the news to spread quickly.
 
Larry in TN said:
The interwebs make the information about them much more available and causes the news to spread quickly.
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By “couple years” I mean just that maybe 2 years or less. This information spread phenomenon is not a recent occurrence. But I may be wrong.
 
Roller said:
So it was pointless to the third degree?

Could we have a poll, who is willing to risk their airline traveling lives, or their families lives, for the establishment to play war games, do “VIP” aka more important than your kids, trips, etc?

Basically you’ll high five your current politician if your family member dies so long as it doesn’t inconvenience them?


That’s kissing the ring with tongue
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Actually it was pointing out that you really don’t understand what was happening.
 
Roller said:
So if it was a R44 doing a tour it would have been allowed the same track?
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See @Larry in TN above. I’d add CIA and FBI to that list as well. Friend of mine got hired on with the FBI years ago flying 60s out of DC and they run those routes all the time. It’s not reserved for the military or military VIPs. This was nothing more than a training flight that went horribly wrong.
 
Larry in TN said:
The aircraft were not being separated by altitude. In no situation would a helicopter be allowed to fly under an airplane landing on 33 at that position based on the helicopter staying at, or below, 200'. The separation standard being applied was visual separation.


Yes. Or a police helicopter, or a medivac helicopter, etc.


The Metro already goes to IAD.


The interwebs make the information about them much more available and causes the news to spread quickly.
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Yeah no, medevac flying your dying mom would be denied the routes those baclhawks flew

They would also deny fixed wing into that airport
 
Roller said:
So it was pointless to the third degree?

Could we have a poll, who is willing to risk their airline traveling lives, or their families lives, for the establishment to play war games, do “VIP” aka more important than your kids, trips, etc?

Basically you’ll high five your current politician if your family member dies so long as it doesn’t inconvenience them?


That’s kissing the ring with tongue
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riiiiight.gif
 
Velocity173 said:
See @Larry in TN above. I’d add CIA and FBI to that list as well. Friend of mine got hired on with the FBI years ago flying 60s out of DC and they run those routes all the time. It’s not reserved for the military or military VIPs. This was nothing more than a training flight that went horribly wrong.
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Well, the training flight went horribly wrong because it was flying a route that took him across final approaches for two runways at a major international airport - hell, I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that these two facts are related.
 
I spent some time listening to DCA Tower this afternoon, and one thing I noticed was them frequently calling out helicopter traffic to the arriving and departing jets. No idea whether this is SOP, but when listening to ATC replays of the accident, I don't recall hearing tower point out the PAT25 traffic to the CRJ (just the other way around).
 
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