Covid-19 shelter-in-place rules and GA

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by joycem137, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

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    PMs work fine.
     
  2. Palmpilot

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    Sure, if you want to go to that much trouble for an audience of one.
     
  3. DFH65

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    Man, and I got warned over posting an article on a disagreement between two politicians on whether respirators actually existed or not.
     
  4. wayne

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    Maybe not everyone, but the workforce. From this article on the antibody testing and how it can help restart the economy:

    Citi’s global health-care, strategy and economics teams say governments and health-care providers will be able to supply 60% of U.S. individuals of working age with antibody tests by the end of April, and 95% by the end of May.

    Individuals with elevated antibody levels will then be able to return to the workforce with minimal risk of reinfection or transmission, they say. How many? Such tests could enable between 20,000 and 400,000 of sidelined U.S. workers with previous exposure to COVID-19 to cease lockdown and immediately and safely return to work. Soon after, 90 million workers, representing 60% of the U.S. workforce, could return.

     
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  5. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    The conspiracy theorist in me says yeah let's test everyone so we can complete the national DNA database. :eek:
     
  6. MadseasoN

    MadseasoN Line Up and Wait

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    The one in me wonders how the insurance companies are manipulating this to their advantage.
     
  7. SoonerAviator

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  8. Half Fast

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  9. Rcmutz

    Rcmutz Line Up and Wait

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    I think I know what you are implying, but I would submit, the federal government is reacting as quickly as they can. There is only so much throughput in terms of PRODUCING test kits, independent of how fast the FDA reacts to new approaches/techniques.
    WOW! Way behind. Ohio had a requested stay at home from 3 weeks ago, that became an Order about 15 days ago.

    Of course there is Florida which has nothing.
     
  10. UngaWunga

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  11. murphey

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    I'm selling tickets!
     
  12. Snowmass

    Snowmass Pre-takeoff checklist

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  13. midlifeflyer

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    Let's see "shelter in place" means:

    (a) stay home except for necessary travel or to help others.
    (b) read the order to find language loose enough to fit your desire to do wherever the #$!&% you want.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  14. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    I like what I saw in option (b) but am wondering why I didn't see an option (a)? :D
     
  15. GrummanBear

    GrummanBear Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Undercooked fish. Jail. Over cooked chicken. Jail. Flying. Jail. Going to jail tonight.


     
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  16. denverpilot

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    Kinda like the loose wording government is leaning on underneath those poorly written “orders”, to make such demands in the first place...

    :) :) :)

    The various lawsuits created by this are going to be epic... chew up some of that over abundance of lawyers who are under-employed.

    Psychiatrists and lawyers make a killing this fall. LOL.
     
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  17. Brad W

    Brad W Line Up and Wait

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    I was thinking the same thing yesterday when my employer issued a letter to act as a pass to get to work if questioned after the governor signed a "stay at home" order...stating we are a "necessary" business.
    and I was considering how irresponsible it is to have me come in when all I do is sit behind a computer and can easily do that from home
    and considering that there is no way in good conscience I would consider what we do as "essential" in this context.
    So I was thinking that if one of us does get it and especially if we were to die from it that it would be a lawyer's dream
    ...but then I read the order, which basically takes 34 pages to say
    stay at home if you are a senior OR if you have serious health issues. otherwise you can go to work.
    As far as I can tell the only places that are closed are dine in restaurants, bars, concert venues, probably karate schools and gyms, etc...
     
  18. murphey

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    Unfortunately, here's the opinion from one airport mgr referring to the Colorado declaration

    "we ask, in this very unusual time in not only aviation but in the world, that our recreational pilots abide by the Governor’s Executive Order unless your mission meets the criteria for “critical business” operations as defined by the state."

    Translation...please don't go flying. We can't stop you, but please don't.

    The Executive order reads
    "All travel, including, but not limited to, travel by automobile or public
    transit, except Necessary Travel is prohibited."

    In the same Exec Order, later down in the document, is the definition of Necessary Activities

    "Engaging in outdoor activity, such as, by way of example and without limitation,
    walking, hiking, nordic skiing, snowshoeing, biking or running."

    I've written a note to the Guv pointing out that solo recreational flying is the most extreme version of social distancing and is even more safe than the specified Necessary Activities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  19. Juliet Hotel

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    They can ask all they want. But until the FAA issues a no fly order, the airport mgr can take their request and go pound sand.
     
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  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I love all the "who cares, I'll do what I want" responses. We're not the only ones who don't care.
     
  21. Palmpilot

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    Aren't aircraft operators subject to state and local laws until the aircraft leaves the ground?
     
  22. gkainz

    gkainz Final Approach

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    Listening to the nightly news, they did a story on "first of the month and the rents are coming due". The went on location to Breckinridge (I guess showing "on location" is necessary for an effective "news story"? to show how empty the streets were, the closed shops, etc. They interviewed a hair salon owner who talked about no revenue coming in and then talked about small business relief for rent payment, etc.

    It struck me as somewhat ironic that the shop owner was generating no revenue, but the small business emergency funds would let her pay her landlord. So, the landlord's revenue continues to come in on their real property, while revenue on sales and services stays at zero.

    Where does one try to balance things out?
     
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  23. midlifeflyer

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    If the FAA issues an order, unless it is part of a national stay at home or travel restriction order, it will probably be because of ATC shortage concerns. I think State Stay at Home orders don't restrict aviation. To the extent enforceable, they deal with the purpose for leaving home to begin with. Necessaries, defined activities. They come down to "stay at home unless it is to engage in certain activities." It's the definitions of those certain activities which lead to the "Part 134.5 Is OK" type analysis we are seeing.

    in the extreme, we are seeing some airport closures. All I have looked at involve general county "no services to the general public here" orders which filter down to county airports and FBOs.
     
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  24. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

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    Out there in Minnesota, read on a FBO door - FBO is closed due to governors stay at home order. Pilots are welcome to enter with CTAF code
     
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  25. Palmpilot

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    Here in California, the Governor's stay-at-home order says "...except as needed to maintain continuity of operations of the federal critical infrastructure sectors, as outlined at https://www.cisa.gov/identifying-critical-infrastructure-during-covid-19." On that Web page, if you scroll down and click on "16 Critical Infrastructure Sectors," and then click on "Transportation Systems Sector" and "Sector Overview," you come to a paragraph that lists recreational aircraft as part of the aviation "key subsector." I think that's what some people are using to justify continued recreational flying in California.

    I'm not qualified to say whether they're right or wrong. However, a few days ago, the Bay Area counties have issued new orders extending and tightening their own restrictions, and section 12 of the one for Santa Clara County, where I live, says "Where a conflict exists between this Order and any state public health order related to the COVID-19 pandemic, the most restrictive provision controls." I don't see any provision in it that would allow a person to leave home for the purpose of recreational flying. (I suspect that the wording of the orders has been coordinated between the Bay Area counties, but I haven't checked.)
     

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  26. Palmpilot

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    [Emphasis added]

    Good point. Except for people whose hangar is part of their home, if the state says you can't leave home for a certain purpose, that would seem to settle the issue. Maybe the FAA could assert federal preemption, but that seems very unlikely in this case.

    I actually thought about that yesterday, and then I forgot about it! [sound of hand slapping forehead]
     
  27. Everskyward

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    I saw a small airplane flying over San Francisco, west of the GG Bridge this morning. Who knows where they took off from, though. Since we're now not supposed to drive or take public transportation anywhere except to do an essential function, I'm not sure how people would get to their airplane to do recreational flying, unless they live on an airport. As you know, the Bay Area counties have also limited further what they consider essential. Glad my water damage repair was completed last week, as home construction is now out. So is commercial construction, with certain exceptions.
     
  28. Juliet Hotel

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    Sure. So if the state or county has an actual law on the books which gives the airport manager the authority to ground aircraft, then I suppose the state or town could cite you and fine you for failing to comply. If such a law were on the books, I would expect stronger wording than 'we can't stop you but please don't' or whatever it was they said.
     
  29. Bill

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    I’m not concerned with the FAA, but am concerned with local law enforcement. I’ve read the list of essential businesses one can travel to, and airports aren’t on either the state or city list where I live.
     
  30. murphey

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    They are in Colorado. This is one of those times I'm happy to have my CAP card handy and claim I'm on my way to the hangar to pick up flight gear.....which is true - I don't hangar my cherokee the same place we keep the CAP airplanes. Definitely need to go get my headset, kneeboard, PLB, GPS, etc.
     
  31. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    As you pointed out, only the FAA can do that. But the state & county around here have closed up pretty much everything relative to GA. No access to the main FBO, hence no access to a public bathroom - but they did put a porta-potty next to the self-serve 100LL. Incredibly happy I have a key to our EAA chapter hangar with a bathroom.

    Even Centennial (KAPA) which is one of the 3 busiest GA airports in the country has so little traffic these days. Everything except airport ops (flights) is closed - the museum, meeting facilities, the Perfect Landing (altho catering still available), the school, south suburban rec, in other words - everything onsite except airplanes.
     
  32. Juliet Hotel

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    Can't speak for your state, but the lists of essential business' I've seen have all been written in the context of which ones could stay open for business and which employees could report for work on-site. None of them specified which places the general public could or could not go, or which they could or could not or patronize. If I keep an airplane at an airport and go to it, I am not going to work. If the shelter in place orders allow me to go hiking in the woods, go walking the dog in the park, or go shopping for plywood at Home Depot (and all that l've seen do), then they are clearly allowing recreational activities that do not involve close contact to others. And they also surely cannot possibly specifically call out every last possible recreational activity which does not involve close contact to others. Any rational person would therefore deduce that taking a pleasure flight in an airplane falls under the latter definition (recreation) and not the former (doing work on-site for a non-essential business). Your opinion may vary of course, but that's mine I and I feel its perfectly valid.
     
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  33. Bill

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    @Juliet Hotel , I get your point, but our executive order prohibits pleasure driving, so hard to argue that driving to the airport is necessary driving. Secondly, our EO states one can utilize an airport if and only if the flights from those airports are essential in nature.

    Not to say that I might not try it, but if I got a ticket or fine, it would be hard to fight.
     
  34. Juliet Hotel

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    Well then perhaps that's the difference then, the EO in my state does not prohibit driving of any sort. Nor does it specify what can and cannot happen at airports.

    My normal work commute is 30 miles mostly on a back woods roads. I generally see less than 5 other vehicles on the road on my normal morning drive. The first day our shelter in place order was in effect, I saw about 2 dozen other vehicles on the road on my way into my essential job. Its tapered off back to normal or less now, but that first day I think everyone decided to start their shelter in place by heading out and grabbing themselves a nice hot Starbucks coffee. C'est la vie.
     
  35. midlifeflyer

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    Each state which has an order (some don't) has its own order. They tend to have similarities but there are also big differences. As an example, compare the Minnesota and Delaware Orders. Minnesota specifically includes "driving for pleasure" as a permitted outdoor activity. Delaware, on the other hand, prohibits "All travel (including, but not limited to, travel on foot, bicycle, scooter, motorcycle, automobile, and public transit), except Essential Travel or travel for Essential Activities."
     
  36. Bill

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    Our EO has the same wording as the Delaware EO. Hard to argue that driving to the airport to drill holes in the sky is essential travel or activity.

    Elsewhere it reads “All travel, including, but not limited to automobiles except Essential Travel and Essential Activities is prohibited.”

    I’m just going have to suck it up.
     
  37. Everskyward

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    In the SF Bay area, we can still walk, hike, run, bike, and "enjoy nature", however, we can't drive or take public transportation in order to engage in those activities. They put the rule in place because many people were driving to parks, beaches, and other desirable recreation areas. Luckily, there are parks and beaches within walking distance for me.
     
  38. Warmi

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    Everybody drives here in IL ... what they gonna do , setup roadblocks ?
     
  39. Juliet Hotel

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    How exactly does the act of driving itself put one at increased risk of close contact with others? I still drive 30 miles to work every day. Today was the first day in 3 weeks I've been within 8' of any individual other than my wife. And that was only because I had to go to a home center to buy gloves and a light bulb, and stop at a repair vendor to drop off some equipment. And in all cases when I got within 8' of another person, I was stepping past them and behind them.

    If I had a mind to, I could have gotten within 2' of other people every day during that time simply by walking next door to see what my neighbor was up to, no driving necessary.
     
  40. Everskyward

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    You aren't limited from driving as long as you are driving to an essential activity such as grocery shopping or work. Driving to a recreational spot is not deemed essential. As I mentioned, parks and beaches were getting crowded so I'm sure that's why they did it.