Cost for Panel Work?

WDD

WDD

Final Approach
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I asked a local avionics shop for the cost to put in a G275 EIS, redo the panel faces, and fix other things.

$10,000 in parts, $26,000 in labor. Parts I can understand. Did I scare the guy off? Or is this reasonable? If $150 an hour for labor, that's 173 hours.

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Link no workee…

But wow.
 
kyleb said:
Link no workee…

But wow.
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Wow as in "Good lord man, you're asking for everything" or "Dang, they just don't want to deal with that"?
 
Ask for a labor breakdown so you can decide options. Is the shop busy or is their business slow?

When I owned an avionics shop, we never knew what we were going to find behind the panel...it could be a real mess to sort out.

Get a second opinion?
 
WDD said:
Or is this reasonable? If $150 an hour for labor, that's 173 hours.
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Based on those figures thats 2 guys working 10 days. Don't know the current market rate but I would say given the work request I could definitely see 10 days or more to complete depending on what lurks behind the panel.
 
The hours for labor don't seem too overblown to me.
 
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You might be missing a piece. For the G3X with the GEA24, we are feeding it through a GAD27 for power stabilization during engine start - otherwise you won't have engine indications during startup. Also, if you lose electrical power and your main battery doesn't have enough juice, you'll loose the EIS, because it doesn't power the GEA24. We're installing a TCW backup battery to solve this limitation (it's only money, after all...). Discuss with the shop, I may not have the full picture of what you have/need.

The labor rate/estimate doesn't seem out of line. You're actually doing a lot of the labor that would be needed to do a G3X with EIS, which is what we've just started (in the shop now).
 
I had much more extensive work in my 210 as well as my 182. The hours seem a bit high compared to what my avionics guy billed. Definitely get a second opinion.
 
robin ardoin said:
I had much more extensive work in my 210 as well as my 182. The hours seem a bit high compared to what my avionics guy billed. Definitely get a second opinion.
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As an interesting data point, we had three shops in SoCal bid for the work we're currently doing (4th gave a rough estimate). All three came in very, very close (within a very few percent difference) in the totals. Some used more hours but lower rate, others vice-versa or in the middle. The fourth with the rough estimate was right in there, too. Just looking at hours and rate from one bid you can't tell. Get at least 3 bids, and then look at how far out they are booked to see what works for you.
 
robin ardoin said:
I had much more extensive work in my 210 as well as my 182. The hours seem a bit high compared to what my avionics guy billed. Definitely get a second opinion.
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PS- I will add...I am fortunate to have an avionics tech whose day job is doing work on helos and his employer allows him to do fixed wing work on the side in his off hours. He charged me around $85/hr labor; I told him he is way too cheap.
 
WDD said:
and fix other things.
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That $#!t adds up fast.
It does feel steep, but it's also a case of "death by a thousand cuts".
Removal of old stuff and behind panel clean-up can take a lot of work.

Make friends with an A&P and do some of that work yourself.
 
Second estimate is for $10,000 labor and $10,000 parts. I think I’ll get a third estimate.
 
$150 an hour…are you in a metro area? I flew mine to a rural area and paid less. Of course then I rented a car and drove many hours. And then many hours back. And then stayed in a hotel because I wasn’t going to do the first flight at night etc

If the estimates are relatively close then what are you suspicious about? There must be something activating your spidey senses
 
One estimate is 2.5 times the other for labor cost / hours.

Spidey sense question? Is the high cost option reasonable, meaning the lower cost option is a poor quality option? Or is the lower cost option reasonable, meaning I’d pay an extra $16000 for same quality of work for no benefit.
 
WDD said:
One estimate is 2.5 times the other for labor cost / hours.

Spidey sense question? Is the high cost option reasonable, meaning the lower cost option is a poor quality option? Or is the lower cost option reasonable, meaning I’d pay an extra $16000 for same quality of work for no benefit.
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As somebody that does this work non professionally, I can say that when I do the work for myself, I’m amazed at how many hours it takes me to do things because I tend to go down rabbit holes to fix things I wouldn’t on a fixed cost job. Meaning, less money = less quality.

However, I’m a cheap bastard and would likely go for the cheap one because I’d probably not be impressed with the results of either anyway. I know, Not a lot of help. lol
 
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WDD said:
Is the high cost option reasonable, meaning the lower cost option is a poor quality option?
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Too many variables to give a good answer. Are both repair stations? What is the actual shop rate? How busy is each shop? And so on. Just as shown in Post 11, I worked in a similar fashion and was able to under bid most work within my capabilities. So cost is not always a direct relation to quality or benefit. You need to make sure you are comparing both or a third shop equally to see which is the best bang and result.
 
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WDD said:
One estimate is 2.5 times the other for labor cost / hours.

Spidey sense question? Is the high cost option reasonable, meaning the lower cost option is a poor quality option? Or is the lower cost option reasonable, meaning I’d pay an extra $16000 for same quality of work for no benefit.
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I read the other comments and lumped them together with your earlier one
 
Be interesting to see where your third estimate comes in. Rule of thumb is you'll spend equal money for parts and labor, but it also looks like you're doing a lot of "little stuff" that doesn't cost much in parts, but will eat up a lot of time. EIS is also pretty time consuming as it involves a lot of FWF work and interfaces with a bunch of systems. Lots of Adel clamps.

The 10/10 estimate almost seems too low, like they just threw it out there. High risk of cost overruns or shoddy work.

It's hard to know what shop to trust. I got my g5 hsi installed by the lowest bidder, mainly because they were able to get me in the fastest (red flags, anyone?). I spent everything I saved and then some having my local shop correct the corners they cut.
 
You obviously had previously done avionics upgrades (GFC500, etc), so why not just use that shop?
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
You obviously had previously done avionics upgrades (GFC500, etc), so why not just use that shop?
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Wise comment. And it adds to this first world dilemma.

The shop that did the first wave of upgrades - the GFC 500, etc - is the shop that gave me the $36k estimate for this project. The previous project went well. They did great work, no bugs, great service.

Why not an automatic “go back to them”?

They weren’t the least expensive, but for that project they weren’t 80% higher than the next highest estimate.

And…. The $20,000 shop is the one used by our club for the GI 275 upgrade on one of the Skyhawks. No issues. But they didn’t do a panel rebuild.
 
Most important for me in a situation like this was that the the quote was not just an estimate, but kind of flat rate for the work described. Low ball offers with estimated hours for installation may result in really unpleasant surprises and there is literally no way to proof that a certain amount of hours did not went into the project.

Probably you should either with Savvy or another independent avionic consultant.
 
Update: So I told the shop in January I’d like to send the deposit, book the install. Crickets. 3 e mails and a voice mail. Literally asked how he wanted me to send him money.

So I’m walking away from this for now. Maybe I can find another shop sometime this year that will do the work.
 
Drop in down in Florida and I'll do it cheap. Might take awhile though. ;)
 
You can definitely chop those costs down. You can easily order a custom panel yourself, and if you have a list of avionics to install there are harness manufacturers that can quote the harness pre-made. There may even be off the shelf parts. I'd even ask the shop if YOU could remove the instruments and save a few hundred.

Check with the shop first, they may want to do all the work in house for reasons. Otherwise any AnP can install avionics and wires. 173 hours may be 2-4 guys working for a week or one dude alone for 5.

Things like pitot/static testing, W&B, STCs etc are things that have little wiggle room.
 
I did the GI275 EIS my self with three students I am training to be A&P's. I looked online to see what the labor would be and it averages $8K-$10K just for labor.
Get a second opinion but I don't think its that bad for especially for new panel overlay with powder coat and engraving.
 
WDD said:
Second estimate is for $10,000 labor and $10,000 parts. I think I’ll get a third estimate.
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Implying any of these shops will meet their estimate? :D

I tend to think the high-quotes are ones who have done the job before. Once bitten and twice shy and all that.
 
At this point the only shop that might actually do the work is the $36k one.
 
I recently installed an Aspen E5 in my plane. I did all the work myself and kept pretty good track of all the hours I put in. Let's just say that things add up fast, especially when you want to do things the right way.

Things done ...
> Removed vacuum system [removal of all components, patching of firewall hole, install engine cover plate] (4hrs)
> Removed unused instruments, annunciator panel, switching relays, & alt encoder (3 hrs)
> Removed unused wiring / Label wiring to be reconnected later (4 hrs)
> Fit Aspen mount to panel / Prep and paint instrument panel (10 hrs)
> Relocate and reattached existing instruments (3 hrs)
> Fabricate new annunciator panels for GPS and autopilot (7 hrs)
> Run new Aspen power wire / Relocate existing power switches / Mount Aspen circuit breaker and switch (5hrs)
> Install Aspen remote sensing unit [includes interior R&R, doubler fabrication and install, running wires] (8 hrs)
> Fabricate and install new Aspen wiring harness (12 hrs)
> Replumb pitot and static lines (5 hrs)
> Rewire Nav/Com to display head (4 hrs)
> Rewire autopilot inputs (8 hrs)
> RS232 from Aspen to transponder (3 hrs)
> Aspen configuration (2 hrs)
> Preliminary systems check (1 hr)
> Pitot static check (3 hrs - not my labor)
> Compass calibration (2 hrs)
> Parts chasing (5 hrs)
> Final systems check (1 hr)
> Flight check all systems (3 hrs)
> Documentation work (2 hrs)

95 Total Hours
 
I have a RV7 project that was built as day VFR only. Minimal panel, and no lights. It is at the avionics shop now getting the full IFR upgrade. I bought all the avionics and paid for the harness. I did all the intermediate tasks to kick the can as close as I could to the finish line. I installed the pitch and roll servos, installed the conduit for the wiring in the wings, installed the trim servo in the elevator trim tab, installed the doubler for the GPS antenna on the fuselage, fitted new wingtips with lighting, cut a window in the sub panel riveted angle aluminum supports around the edges, and a hundred other things.

By doing all the intermediate steps he will charge me time and materials to run the wires and finish what I’m not comfortable with. I’m sure the price tag when I’m done will be just an arm, and not an arm and a leg.
 
Our opinion is that the estimate is over by about 20-40 hours depending on the current condition of the back of the panel as provided. 275 EIS's take work that's a little different than a JPI on the basis of materials included versus complete harness, with a difference on who does the programming of the unit. Our shop rate is $140, and we are located at KCPM, about 10 minutes away from Long Beach, Fullerton, Hawthorne, and Torrance in Southern California. [email protected]
 
Heck - if you actually respond to an e mail or a phone call you could probably charge more per hour.
 
It's brutal at times. After 30 plus years as an engineer, and many a year teaching paint as a hobby, don't ask me how we ended up running a paint shop. We have a painter that won awards at Oshkosh 4 separate times; one has been painting aircraft over 30 years and another for 40. That keeps us busy. Upholstery is easy; maintenance is very busy. That said, NOTHING challenges the calendar more than avionics installations with all the local shops that closed or whose work has been less than ideal and their customers asking for us to do work once they find out we're here. I'll apologize in advance for not answering immediately, but we do try to call back customers within a day or two - same with emails. Thank you for your consideration! 877-725-6652, [email protected]
 
You’d also have to relocate to the ATL area. Booming area - you open a branch office here !
 
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