Commercial maneuvers - how much does the plane matter?

[StraightnLevel]

I'm starting to work towards the Commercial cert, and am curious about whether these maneuvers make sense in a Bonanza, or if I should spend a bunch of time getting back up to speed in a Cherokee/Archer.

IIUC, I need to demonstrate:

Chandelle
Lazy 8
8s on pylons
Accelerated stall
E-descent (steep spiral)
Short-field landing at tighter tolerance

Have I got this correct? It seems that the 8s on pylons would greatly benefit from a slower, smaller plane, right? Or, would I be better off sticking with the plane that I have the most time in?

I may be over-thinking this, but I don't want to set myself up for failure with a plane that makes these checks difficult or worse, improbable....

 

[RyanB]

Bonanza is fine, but certainly more complex than a basic trainer. The hardest part is going to be the power-off 180 demonstration and steep spirals are going to have to begin at a high altitude.

 

[GeorgeC]

@cowman, white courtesy phone...

 

[dtuuri]

In my experience it's not, "How much does the plane matter?" It's more like, "How much does the plane cost?" You can do the maneuvers in a nice economical one and the rest in an expensive advanced one.

 

[StraightnLevel]

In my experience it's not, "How much does the plane matter?" It's more like, "How much does the plane cost?" You can do the maneuvers in a nice economical one and the rest in an expensive advanced one.

Well, I own the Bonanza and I'd have to rent the trainer, so the per-hour cost is probably close to a wash.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Well, I own the Bonanza and I'd have to rent the trainer, so the per-hour cost is probably close to a wash.

Then, I suggest you do it in the airplane you are most familiar with. All of those maneuvers are easily done in a Bonanza.

 

[frfly172]

Years ago I used a rental cutlas Cessna for the test but practiced the manuevers in my 172 that I owned.

 

[dtuuri]

Well, I own the Bonanza and I'd have to rent the trainer, so the per-hour cost is probably close to a wash.

Go for it, then. Your pivotal altitude will be higher above the obstacles, so that's a plus.

 

[mondtster]

I did my commercial in a Bonanza. I see no reason to complicate things by trying to do it in something else.

 

[dmspilot]

I'm starting to work towards the Commercial cert, and am curious about whether these maneuvers make sense in a Bonanza, or if I should spend a bunch of time getting back up to speed in a Cherokee/Archer.

IIUC, I need to demonstrate:

Chandelle
Lazy 8
8s on pylons
Accelerated stall
E-descent (steep spiral)
Short-field landing at tighter tolerance

Have I got this correct? It seems that the 8s on pylons would greatly benefit from a slower, smaller plane, right? Or, would I be better off sticking with the plane that I have the most time in?

I may be over-thinking this, but I don't want to set myself up for failure with a plane that makes these checks difficult or worse, improbable....

Fly the plane you have the most time in. The opposite is true about 8s on pylons. They are a royal pain in a small, slow plane. Remember for decades the commercial checkrides were usually done in a complex aircraft.

 

[StraightnLevel]

The opposite is true about 8s on pylons. They are a royal pain in a small, slow plane.

Hmmmm? Help me.understand why?

 

[dmspilot]

Hmmmm? Help me.understand why?

Check the pivotal altitude formula. A sub-90 knot plane with a 15 knot headwind is enough to make the maneuver unflyable from a legal and safety standpoint.

 

[cowman]

I did mine in my Lance, I don't have any Bonanza time but I doubt it would be any harder. It definitely ups the difficulty level but most examiners will probably take that into account. I went back and forth on renting a 172 but opted to improve my skills in the plane I normally fly.

 

[ColinD]

Potentially stupid question: how do you fly the steep spiral in a low-wing airplane? When I was training for my Commercial cert in a 172, I kept my aim point near the base of the wing's lift strut, and the resulting turn radius was very tight. I have maybe 3 hours total in a PA28, including one awful attempt at flying this maneuver in a Dakota 236. Do you place your mark off the wing tip and enter the maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate for the larger diameter circle?

 

[Initial Fix]

Bonanza is fine, but certainly more complex than a basic trainer. The hardest part is going to be the power-off 180 demonstration and steep spirals are going to have to begin at a high altitude.

I’m not sure I agree with the “high altitude “ comment. A bonanza can easily do an emergency engine out 180 to the runway from pattern altitude. I’ve done it on BFR and BPPP (beech proficiency) flights too. Now if the pilot is flying a ginormous wide pattern, probably not.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, it doesn’t make any difference. Before the TAA option, most everyone did their entire commercial requirements in complex airplanes. I even knew a Cirrus school that had an A36 just for that reason.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Potentially stupid question: how do you fly the steep spiral in a low-wing airplane? When I was training for my Commercial cert in a 172, I kept my aim point near the base of the wing's lift strut, and the resulting turn radius was very tight. I have maybe 3 hours total in a PA28, including one awful attempt at flying this maneuver in a Dakota 236. Do you place your mark off the wing tip and enter the maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate for the larger diameter circle?

Put your wing down and look at the ground. I’m not sure why one would need a larger diameter circle unless they were using a higher airspeed (ground speed actually). If anything you can fly it steeper and tighter in a low wing because you can bank more without the high wing getting in the way

 

[RyanB]

I’m not sure I agree with the “high altitude “ comment. A bonanza can easily do an emergency engine out 180 to the runway from pattern altitude. I’ve done it on BFR and BPPP (beech proficiency) flights too. Now if the pilot is flying a ginormous wide pattern, probably not.

Please go back and read my post again, I said nothing about the power-off 180 needing to be high altitude.

Steep spirals in a Bonanza are going to have to be accomplished from a high altitude, ie., 7,000 to 8,000ft - ish, to be completed by 3,000AGL.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Please go back and read my post again, I said nothing about the power-off 180 needing to be high altitude.

Steep spirals in a Bonanza are going to have to be accomplished from a high altitude, ie., 7,000 to 8,000ft - ish, to be completed by 3,000AGL.

What’s this 3,000 AGL of which you speak?

The ACS bottom altitude is 1500 AGL, and the steep spiral is basically the commercial version of the emergency descent, sometimes combined with the power-off 180.

 

[ColinD]

Put your wing down and look at the ground. I’m not sure why one would need a larger diameter circle unless they were using a higher airspeed (ground speed actually). If anything you can fly it steeper and tighter in a low wing because you can bank more without the high wing getting in the way

Hah, I guess. I was taught the maneuver as a descending turn over a point at best glide speed, where banking steeply wasn't necessarily the goal, but simply required on the downwind side. Upwind part of the maneuver flown nearly wings-level if the winds aloft were strong, and never losing sight of the aim point.

 

[RyanB]

What’s this 3,000 AGL of which you speak?

The ACS bottom altitude is 1500 AGL, and the steep spiral is basically the commercial version of the emergency descent, sometimes combined with the power-off 180.

Sorry, I meant 1500.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hah, I guess. I was taught the maneuver as a descending turn over a point at best glide speed, where banking steeply wasn't necessarily the goal, but simply required on the downwind side. Upwind part of the maneuver flown nearly wings-level if the winds aloft were strong, and never losing sight of the aim point.

LOL! Even at best glide, it's just looking our the window. The reason it struck me funny is that I learned to fly in a low wing. My first time in the pattern with a 172, I turned from downwind to base and said, "where did the runway go?"

 

[ColinD]

Right! You're probably flying the maneuver more correctly than me - the airplane flying handbook says:

The objective of the steep spiral is to provide a flight maneuver for rapidly dissipating substantial amounts of altitude while remaining over a selected spot. This maneuver may be useful during an emergency landing.

Hard to argue we're dissipating altitude quickly when flying it at best glide.

I keep the airplane so close to my chosen point that a bank exceeding 60° would have to be maintained to keep it at the wingtip, though.

 

[Initial Fix]

Please go back and read my post again, I said nothing about the power-off 180 needing to be high altitude.

Steep spirals in a Bonanza are going to have to be accomplished from a high altitude, ie., 7,000 to 8,000ft - ish, to be completed by 3,000AGL.

Ryan. Not to pick nits, but your original comment did say 180 and high altitude. I read that and the spiral comment as implying two separate maneuvers needing to be “high altitude “.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Lazy 8s were the hardest part in my 182, but it’s not a big deal once you figure out your power settings

 

[StraightnLevel]

So far, the 8s on pylons are where I'm having the most trouble....I'm not sure that I understand the intent of the maneuver in a way that translates to the controls.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Check the pivotal altitude formula. A sub-90 knot plane with a 15 knot headwind is enough to make the maneuver unflyable from a legal and safety standpoint.

OK, now I get it. Faster = higher. Thanks - I think you pointed me to a crucial bit of understanding.

 

[murphey]

What no one mentioned yet....is the Bonanza certified for all the maneuvers? My 180 cherokee isn't, but the 140 Cherokee is. Just not fair.

 

[RyanB]

Ryan. Not to pick nits, but your original comment did say 180 and high altitude. I read that and the spiral comment as implying two separate maneuvers needing to be “high altitude “.

Yes, the power-off 180 is not as simple in a Bonanza as compared to a basic trainer and the steep spirals will have to be conducted from a high altitude given the rate of descent you’ll have. Both of these statements are true imho. Not both maneuvers need to be high altitude.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What no one mentioned yet....is the Bonanza certified for all the maneuvers? My 180 cherokee isn't, but the 140 Cherokee is. Just not fair.

What commercial maneuvers is your 180 precluded from? I'm not aware of any standard category airplane aircraft that can't do all of them.

 

[midlifeflyer]

OK, now I get it. Faster = higher. Thanks - I think you pointed me to a crucial bit of understanding.

That's the whole theory of the eights on pylons.

 

[Layton's]

I don’t believe the ACS defines “steep spiral”. Steep turns must exceed 50 degrees. All it says about steep spirals cannot exceed 60 Degrees.

Btw, I did my commercial years ago in a Mooney.

Lee

 

[murphey]

What commercial maneuvers is your 180 precluded from? I'm not aware of any standard category airplane aircraft that can't do all of them.

Ah....my bad, I forgot - the 140 can do spins, the 180 can't, but spins aren't required for the commercial.
I can't do the commercial maneuvers in my 180 because I can't get it into utility category.
Here's why....I'd have to lose 40 pounds, the CFI needs to weigh under 120, and only 16 gal of fuel max. Aint gonna happen.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don’t believe the ACS defines “steep spiral”. Steep turns must exceed 50 degrees. All it says about steep spirals cannot exceed 60 Degrees.

I believe you might want to look again and notice things like maintaining a constant radius around a point, enough altitude to make three complete turns, maintaining target airspeed within certain tolerances, and rolling out on a specified heading. If that fails, you can check the primary ACS reference, the Airplane Flying Handbook.

 

[RussR]

Ah....my bad, I forgot - the 140 can do spins, the 180 can't, but spins aren't required for the commercial.
I can't do the commercial maneuvers in my 180 because I can't get it into utility category.
Here's why....I'd have to lose 40 pounds, the CFI needs to weigh under 120, and only 16 gal of fuel max. Aint gonna happen.

Why do you think you need to be in the utility category?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ah....my bad, I forgot - the 140 can do spins, the 180 can't, but spins aren't required for the commercial.
I can't do the commercial maneuvers in my 180 because I can't get it into utility category.
Here's why....I'd have to lose 40 pounds, the CFI needs to weigh under 120, and only 16 gal of fuel max. Aint gonna happen.

Offhand I can't think of a single commercial maneuver that requires utility category.

 

[RussR]

So far, the 8s on pylons are where I'm having the most trouble....I'm not sure that I understand the intent of the maneuver in a way that translates to the controls.

Start approximately at the pivotal AGL altitude. If the pylon moves forward, push forward. If the pylon moves back, pull back. That's about all you really need to know to make 8's on pylons work. Rote application of this works just fine.

Usually I am pretty big on understanding the "why" of maneuvers, but I just can't get worked up about 8's on pylons. I see no practical application for just about anybody. So just do the push and pull and it works, you pass and move on.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm starting to work towards the Commercial cert, and am curious about whether these maneuvers make sense in a Bonanza, or if I should spend a bunch of time getting back up to speed in a Cherokee/Archer.

IIUC, I need to demonstrate:

Chandelle
Lazy 8
8s on pylons
Accelerated stall
E-descent (steep spiral)
Short-field landing at tighter tolerance

Have I got this correct? It seems that the 8s on pylons would greatly benefit from a slower, smaller plane, right? Or, would I be better off sticking with the plane that I have the most time in?

I may be over-thinking this, but I don't want to set myself up for failure with a plane that makes these checks difficult or worse, improbable....

When you are a relatively low time pilot, sitting for your commercial for the first time, the easiest airplane is to do the maneuvers in is the one you are most comfortable with.

That is NOT a slam on low time pilots, I am just reflecting on my feeling/personal experience when I went for my commercial as a low time pilot.

I am one of the oddballs that did my Multi Comm first. I had gotten my MEL as a private pilot and had been flying twins quite a bit before I went for my commercial. Doing the commercial in a twin first was super easy for me as I was comfortable in the twin. Because I did it in the twin first, I was then able to use a fixed gear 172 for my single comm add-on. The downside of that was I was NOT as comfortable in the 172 as I was in the twin or low wing Pipers. I made it through the training and maneuvers fine, but it was a little more stressful at the time to get them down.

I say that because over 2000 hours later, I have gotten comfortable doing commercial maneuvers in....172s, 170s, biplanes, Bonanzas, Pipers and my T6. At this point, I don't know that I find one particular airplane better inherently better than another.

If you have a choice, do the commercial in the type that you have the most confidence in. But if that isn't available (school only uses a different type, no rentals of the kind you want are available...etc) then use whatever they have and spend the time to get as comfortable with the maneuvers as possible. You want to feel confident in your ability going into the check ride.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Offhand I can't think of a single commercial maneuver that requires utility category.

Zero. 90% of it is just energy management

 

[midlifeflyer]

Start approximately at the pivotal AGL altitude. If the pylon moves forward, push forward. If the pylon moves back, pull back. That's about all you really need to know to make 8's on pylons work. Rote application of this works just fine.

Usually I am pretty big on understanding the "why" of maneuvers, but I just can't get worked up about 8's on pylons. I see no practical application for just about anybody. So just do the push and pull and it works, you pass and move on.

Did you also do the "choose only one pylon" thing?

Pick a pylon, fly around it clockwise, then straight and level. Count to 6 and look out the left window, Whatever you are looking at is the second pylon. Fly around it,