City of Austin is effectively closed to the little guys this weekend (It just ain't right...)

Tusayan said:
The broader problem is that US FBOs are slowly turning public infrastructure into a luxury commodity that generates high revenues for them, using a monopoly on access to taxpayer funded infrastructure to do it at the public expense. This will eventually kill US GA by making it like GA elsewhere, where it is already mostly dead as a result.
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I’ve been doing this aviation thing now for 50 years. I started out when GA was booming in the 70’s.

The decline of GA is not because an FBO decides to cater to the corporate market.
 
Tusayan said:
Public airport runways are not private businesses either.

As mentioned, the solution of integrating private FBO businesses into taxpayer owned airport infrastructure is to mandate public parking so that the FBOs don’t have a monopoly based on the taxpayer owned runway (that the FBO did not build, does not own and does not maintain)
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So on a busy weekend you show up for the free parking and find it completely jam full, now what? If simply pouring more concrete was the feasible option to high demand events, they probably would have already done that.

And whos paying to pave more "free ramp" Concrete isnt free, and funding for airports is not unlimited.
 
pburger said:
I was planning a quick trip to Austin on Friday to have lunch with my brother and to drop a buddy off who is buying a truck from him. We were going to have a nice lunch and then I was going to head home. Total ramp time of no more than 3 hours.

Well, the F1 race is this weekend (who knew?). Apparently every FBO at the big airport and the FBO at Executive all have serious fees for any aircraft that touches their ramps. Austin Executive on the north side is my normal go-to when going to Austin. As it turns out, they are the cheapest at $1000 for any aircraft. I explained that I just wanted to drop in for lunch on Friday and would be right back out. NOPE! DENIED! Well, not denied, they would welcome me with open arms if I open my wallet to the tune of $1000. From October 17-20 the city of Austin is effectively closed to the average GA pilot. That's some real BS when these are supposed to be "public use" airports.

We've found an alternate meeting place that will require my brother to drive out of the city, but it's all good - there is barbecue involved.
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Did you give a call to the FBO's?

I made the mistake of planning on going into Lakeland FL to visit my folks back when the Super Bowl was in Tampa and I completely missed that the restrictions were in place. I called the FBO and they couldn't have been nicer. They fit our 182 in among the heavy iron, no fee and super pleasant to deal with. Tower said "you're the smallest things we've seen today" where I checked in with them.
 
In reality General Aviation is steadily growing, just not the Part 91 private, recreational side which has been declining since the mid-80s. And its this growth on the GA commercial, business, turbine side that is driving the changes at both public and private airports, and in some cases is saving those airports because the legacy fleet of private aircraft can no longer support those airports. For example, if you follow Signature and similar entities they are buying up smaller operations to further develop this growth in the commercial GA market. What I would suggest for those who believe this is an appropriate use of their tax dollars, is to attend the respective airport commission meetings to speak out about this. Unfortunately, airports are businesses and most commission meetings I've attended put a priority on the ROI of that tax dollar use than providing free parking for <10% of the airport users. But without letting that collective voice be heard, the issue becomes moot as the numbers of commercial or turbine users increase and expand.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Honestly, if I want good BBQ, it's hard to beat Rudy's. It's a chain with 47 locations. I've never had bad service or bad bbq there. It's always exactly the same. Whatever their recipe is, it's consistent. That and their sauce is some of the best. It's also a good place to stop and grab ready-to-go breakfast tacos too.
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I've been going to FTW every week for the past month or so for work (this week was my first week home in a while, but flying back out there Sat PM) and there is a Rudy's across the parking lot from our hotel. I tried it the first week I was there and I was not impressed. Maybe I caught it on a slow day? I think we were 4 of the 10 people in there that evening, so maybe their stuff had gotten stale or something. I'll have to give it another try next week.
 
pburger said:
I was planning a quick trip to Austin on Friday to have lunch with my brother and to drop a buddy off who is buying a truck from him. We were going to have a nice lunch and then I was going to head home. Total ramp time of no more than 3 hours.

Well, the F1 race is this weekend (who knew?). Apparently every FBO at the big airport and the FBO at Executive all have serious fees for any aircraft that touches their ramps. Austin Executive on the north side is my normal go-to when going to Austin. As it turns out, they are the cheapest at $1000 for any aircraft. I explained that I just wanted to drop in for lunch on Friday and would be right back out. NOPE! DENIED! Well, not denied, they would welcome me with open arms if I open my wallet to the tune of $1000. From October 17-20 the city of Austin is effectively closed to the average GA pilot. That's some real BS when these are supposed to be "public use" airports.

We've found an alternate meeting place that will require my brother to drive out of the city, but it's all good - there is barbecue involved.
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We used to have a plane hangared at the sleepy little airport next to Atlanta Motor Speedway. On NASCAR weekends, the parking fees went to 4 figures and they were stacking them all over the airport. The local folks loved it - those 1-2 weekends per year basically funded the upkeep of the airport for the rest of the year.
 
CJones said:
We used to have a plane hangared at the sleepy little airport next to Atlanta Motor Speedway. On NASCAR weekends, the parking fees went to 4 figures and they were stacking them all over the airport. The local folks loved it - those 1-2 weekends per year basically funded the upkeep of the airport for the rest of the year.
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so you mean this isn’t something that just started in the last couple of years. ;)
 
Tusayan said:
The broader problem is that US FBOs are slowly turning public infrastructure into a luxury commodity that generates high revenues for them, using a monopoly on access to taxpayer funded infrastructure to do it at the public expense. This will eventually kill US GA by making it like GA elsewhere, where it is already mostly dead as a result.
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With airports already hurting for revenue to cover costs, who is going to pay for this public free use areas, let alone all the construction costs? Who is going to clear the snow/ice? Sweep the debris?

Tim
 
One point I will add. There is a growing sentiment in the airport industry, that since FAA airport funding isn't growing that the current NPIAS is no longer sustainable. They are beginning to advocate closing or consolidating smaller GA airports in an effort to increase the amount of money available to the survivors.

Definitely not my belief, but it is out there.
 
midwestpa24 said:
One point I will add. There is a growing sentiment in the airport industry, that since FAA airport funding isn't growing that the current NPIAS is no longer sustainable. They are beginning to advocate closing or consolidating smaller GA airports in an effort to increase the amount of money available to the survivors.

Definitely not my belief, but it is out there.
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And “sentiment” or “belief” can control reality in spite of facts if it gets enough traction.
 
Pugs said:
Did you give a call to the FBO's?

I made the mistake of planning on going into Lakeland FL to visit my folks back when the Super Bowl was in Tampa and I completely missed that the restrictions were in place. I called the FBO and they couldn't have been nicer. They fit our 182 in among the heavy iron, no fee and super pleasant to deal with. Tower said "you're the smallest things we've seen today" where I checked in with them.
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I called one of the FBOs at AUS to inquire about ramp fees because it had been a while since I had been there. They informed me of the F1 race and the PPR requirement involving a reservation, contract, large fee, etc. They explained that all the FBOs at that airport were charging similar fees, etc. They said that Austin Executive airport was also taking reservations. I then called Austin Executive. They said that they are taking reservations and that it was $1000 for any aircraft, and that that was the cheapest fee anywhere in the city. I explained that I wanted to drop in on Friday morning for 2-3 hours and they said there were no exceptions. I then looked up the NOTAM which explained things in more detail. I will be executing Plan B today, so all is good.
 
tspear said:
FAA ATC is supposed to be first come first served. Having a dedicated runway for airlines, and making all the business jets over on the other runway wait, is not treating all customers equally. The FAA is not, and should not be concerned about the cargo carriers and airlines losing money because they suddenly have a departure delay. This is very bad optics and the NBAA should be all over the AUS tower. It also looks bad for the FBOs. If AUS tower wanted to avoid the issue, they could have created a timeslot reservation system, and the regular carriers would obviously have made such reservations and been accommodated first; the business jets then would have known to expect delays and when they could expect to take off.

Tim
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All the FBO's are on the east side.
 
The first thing you learn in economics is that the purpose of money is to allcoate scarce resources.

When a city has an F1 race, or similar event, the surrounding airspace, airports, and parking spaces become scarce resources relative to demand. How are you going to allocate those resources if not by money?

The high fees incentivize NAS users to plan around those busy periods either by traveling on a different day or using an airport further away.
 
Larry in TN said:
The first thing you learn in economics is that the purpose of money is to allcoate scarce resources.

When a city has an F1 race, or similar event, the surrounding airspace, airports, and parking spaces become scarce resources relative to demand. How are you going to allocate those resources if not by money?

The high fees incentivize NAS users to plan around those busy periods either by traveling on a different day or using an airport further away.
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But we are an egalitarian society! So, we must accommodate everyone equally or no one!

Tim (I could not resist)
 
midwestpa24 said:
So on a busy weekend you show up for the free parking and find it completely jam full, now what? If simply pouring more concrete was the feasible option to high demand events, they probably would have already done that.

And whos paying to pave more "free ramp" Concrete isnt free, and funding for airports is not unlimited.
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I didn’t mention “free” parking, I did mention parking off FBO leaseholds with fixed (not event based) pricing for those who don’t choose to do business with a monopoly. In the airports where this already functions effectively I’ve noticed asphalt public parking ramps, not concrete, and it’s a lot less costly. The money that paid for the infrastructure is the same money that pays for everything else at any public airport, except for tenant improvements on the FBO leaseholds, and it was done a little at a time like developing the rest of the airport.

One solution to managing capacity of first come, first served public parking is online booking. There are others. Regardless, it will fill up on event weekends but more parking for many more people is better for the taxpayer than zero parking for anything but a few jets carrying a few people paying thousands of dollars each to FBOs who then pass some of the proceeds back to the local government owner in a self feeding cycle of corruption that eliminates public access to a publicly owned airport that was not built or maintained by the FBOs that lease a patch of land there.

US public airports are not for profit businesses, they are in general government funded infrastructure. Managing them needs to take that into account. I’m personally an unrepentant capitalist and long term multiple rental property owner, but if you apply the rules for free markets to taxpayer funded infrastructure what you end up with slowly moves towards corruption and eliminates public access. What’s sad to me in reading this thread is that obviously some of the posters are completely naive about GA outside of the US and how it has already (decades ago) gone down this route.
 
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One thing I’ve seen is small airports driving costs up on their own. I used to be at an airport in California, where everything ran well from the perspective of the pilots based there. There were two or three employees who took care of fueling planes, maintaining the lights and equipment, and one part-timer who mowed when needed. There is a small terminal that was in excellent condition.

The longtime manager retired, and new one was hired by the city. In short order, he’d at least doubled the staffing, spent thousands on new airplane-themed furniture for the lobby (things like a riveted aluminum coffee table to replace the existing one that was in fine condition) and imposed a bunch of new rules. He got the city council to change his job title from manager to director so he’d have to get a massive raise.

People don’t choose an airport based on cool chairs in the lobby. It’s the only public-use airport in the county, with the nearest fields being a 30 to 45 minute drive. Don’t try to fix what ain’t broken.
 
Tusayan said:
I didn’t mention “free” parking, I did mention parking off FBO leaseholds with fixed (not event based) pricing for those who don’t choose to do business with a monopoly. In the airports where this already functions effectively I’ve noticed asphalt public parking ramps, not concrete, and it’s a lot less costly. The money that paid for the infrastructure is the same money that pays for everything else at any public airport, except for tenant improvements on the FBO leaseholds, and it was done a little at a time like developing the rest of the airport.

One solution to managing capacity of first come, first served public parking is online booking. There are others. Regardless, it will fill up on event weekends but more parking for many more people is better for the taxpayer than zero parking for anything but a few jets carrying a few people paying thousands of dollars each to FBOs who then pass some of the proceeds back to the local government owner in a self feeding cycle of corruption that eliminates public access to a publicly owned airport that was not built or maintained by the FBOs that lease a patch of land there.

US public airports are not for profit businesses, they are in general government funded infrastructure. Managing them needs to take that into account. I’m personally an unrepentant capitalist and long term multiple rental property owner, but if you apply the rules for free markets to taxpayer funded infrastructure what you end up with slowly moves towards corruption and eliminates public access. What’s sad to me in reading this thread is that obviously some of the posters are completely naive about GA outside of the US and how it has already (decades ago) gone down this route.
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Concrete, asphalt, grass, it doesn't really matter. The point is that space for parking at any airport is a finite resource. When a large scale event is occurring in that city that brings a lot of aviation traffic, there is not sufficient capacity to handle that surge. As others have posted here, it wasn't just parking, but even runways that were a limiting factor, with long lines for departure. What is naive is thinking that just because you own a small airplane, you should have equal access, for low to no cost, to a finite resource instead of someone else.

Everyone wants government to run more like private enterprise, until it does and it affects them.
 
Can't really hate on a FBO making some money. Just think of all the fuelers/caterers/etc getting a tip for good service (hopefully).

When was the last time you slipped an FBO worker a $10 or so for a good job??

Yea, its a small aggravation but money keeps airports open.

Those jets are owned mostly by people who took a risk in business and it paid off. How many people does the owner of one jet employ? Flight crew? At the business they own/operate? Capitalism isn't a perfect system, but its better than most.
 
Tusayan said:
US public airports are not for profit businesses, they are in general government funded infrastructure. Managing them needs to take that into account.
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Except that is not exactly true. While in general the infrastructure and basic services may by government funded, the majority of its operating funds are generated by usage taxes and monies collected from leases, 3rd party services (FBOs, etc) and so on.

And in some cases it’s the drop in that 3rd party income to the government coffers which has caused a number of local or small airports to shutdown because the tax base or desire of the local citizens do not want to fund the airport no longer.

As to a comparison to other aviation systems outside the US there is no comparison on many levels. The FAA system is still the simplest, cheapest, most flexible system in the world and is still basically free to use for most aviators in general.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Everyone wants government to run more like private enterprise, until it does and it affects them.
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I want government to run like government, and private enterprise to run like private enterprise. Confusion between the two is the issue in this thread. What you are supporting is not private enterprise, it is a taxpayer supported monopoly.
 
Tusayan said:
What you are supporting is not private enterprise, it is a taxpayer supported monopoly.
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Back to the subject of the OP. KAUS has 3 separate fbo’s on the airport, each owned by different companies.

Explain how that’s a “monopoly”.
 
I used to fly to Austin quite often years ago as my child went to undergrad and law school there. Austin Exec I landed at several times during F1. They asked if I would let them move the plane if the ramp was full and not to leave brakes on ... they never moved it. South by Southwest (SXSW) I had a little more turbulence with for some reason, or landing at 5 pm on a Friday.
 
In that case it’s a taxpayer supported oligarchy, not a monopoly but the effect is the same.

Have you ever flown GA outside of America and seen where this goes?
 
I accidently stopped in Augusta Georgia during the Masters. Naturally, they were full, no space left.

Looking at all those turbine planes made it obvious there was a problem for us, as we were in a Cessna 172. An employee came out, explained the obvious, and I told him we were there for gas and lunch. We made a compromise, if we promised to leave within 3 hours, we could park. We turned the Cessna around, rolled it back between Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmers giants, chocked it with big chocks, and away we went. They had permission to move us if one of the big guys had an emergency and left, Fat chance that happened in the middle of the event!

After lunch, I took pictures of one of the Piper Cubs that I trained in, met the receptionist that made my flight appointments, and the son of one of my instructors.

It pays to be polite and friendly.
 
Tusayan said:
In that case it’s a taxpayer supported oligarchy, not a monopoly but the effect is the same.

Have you ever flown GA outside of America and seen where this goes?
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If that was directed at me, yes, I have extensive international flying experience and have lived/worked outside of the US.

And in the question of KAUS and its 3 fbo’s, no, it’s not an oligarchy. Those businesses bid on lease contracts because they saw a business opportunity. They do not control the airport, the city does through their government.
 
And the FAA controls the local government, but not enough.
 
Tusayan said:
And the FAA controls the local government, but not enough.
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Then you should be talking to the local government. They will be more responsive, especially if you fly there more than once a year. If you do not fly there, you have no issue with this airport.
 
Tusayan said:
In that case it’s a taxpayer supported oligarchy, not a monopoly but the effect is the same.

Have you ever flown GA outside of America and seen where this goes?
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Yes I have (although a while ago). Gliding is huge overseas. Flugplatz Worms has actually grown since I was last there. The original grass strip is there, but now there is a concrete runway and fairly large FBO.

But then again I also remember the red cool aid (AVGAS).

Most non-communist/Socialist countries has private pilots. Nowhere near as large as the USA, but its out there. But all the Socialist/Communist countries? LOL NO
 
Tusayan said:
And the FAA controls the local government, but not enough.
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The FAA has guidelines (called Grant Assurances) when they provide federal funding to an airport. The airport is owned by the city, therefore the city makes the rules on property use and land leases.

I would really suggest educating yourself on how this actually works if that interest you.
 
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I’m plenty educated thanks very much, and am amazed at the naïveté shown here.

The end game for what’s being discussed here, as has happened elsewhere in the world, is that government eventually sells the airports to the FBOs to pay off debt. Then the charges become wildly arbitrary and unregulated. Often light aircraft are completely banned.
 
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Tusayan said:
I’m plenty educated thanks vey much, and am amazed at the naïveté shown here.

The end game for what’s abject discussed here, as has happened elsewhere in end world, is that government eventually sells the airports to rhe FBOs to pay off debt. Then the charges become wildly arbitrary and unregulated. Often light aircraft are complete banned.
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In other news, the sky is falling...

The city governments around the country won't be selling the airports off, and no FBO could afford to buy one. Where there have been efforts to privatize airports in the US, they have failed.
 
Tusayan said:
The end game for what’s being discussed here, as has happened elsewhere in end world, is that government eventually sells the airports to the FBOs to pay off debt. Then the charges become wildly arbitrary and unregulated.
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None of which does anything to mitigate the congestion that occurs during an F1 race, or similar event.
 
Maybe it’s time to start utilizing those small fields are are usually on the edge of being closed. Give those small FBOs the business instead. The more traffic is more money for the little guys. Even if you have to take a 10 minute uber, it’s time to start.
 
How is this fundamentally different than special “event parking” rates at any major downtown parking lot, the OSH Hilton Garden Inn during OSH, hotel rates during Superbowl, or a litany of other similar situations?
 
It’s different in that you don’t have to pay for parking at that parking lot in order to drive down the adjacent street to drop somebody off at the event. And if you get there earlier you might be lucky and get a parking spot on the public street a mile away, and take a $5 Uber to the event if you don’t like walking.

Again, just my opinion but I think some are either delusional, naive, on the receiving end or lacking in insight about where this slippery slope has led most countries airport infrastructure worldwide. It’s a corruption that diverts Federal resources at a critical time (if the airport receives taxpayer funding) into private hands (the FBO and its customers that have exclusive access to the runway) and if FAA were doing its job properly it would be shut down by FAA. The most flagrant example was for Vegas F1 event in which all the local airports are run by the same profiteering local government that also owns the FBOs in a total local monopoly situation funded by the Federal taxpayer.

If the airport does not receive Federal funding that’s a different situation and justifiable, as long as it’s NOTAMed long in advance at airports that are otherwise public use.
 
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Tusayan said:
Again, just my opinion but I think some are either delusional, naive, on the receiving end or lacking in insight
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Please look in the mirror.

Tusayan said:
It’s a corruption that diverts the public resources at a critical time (if the airport receives taxpayer funding) into private hands (the FBO and its customers that have exclusive access to the runway) and if FAA were doing its job properly it would be shut down by FAA.
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Again, you keep citing how the FAA is “not doing its job properly” but you’ve yet to cite anything to prove that other than innuendo.

Please show us what the FAA is required to do and how they are not complying.

Tusayan said:
The most flagrant example was for Vegas F1 event in which all the local airports are run by the County and also own the FBOs in a total local monopoly situation funded by the Federal taxpayer.
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The government of Clark County owns the airports but they do not own the fbo’s, those are private companies. Those private companies have a land lease to operate. I’m not sure why you are convinced these fbo’s are somehow owned by Clark County.
Tusayan said:
If the airport does not receive Federal funding that’s a different situation and justifiable, as long as it’s NOTAMed long in advance at airports that are otherwise public use.
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Again you don’t understand how FAA funding actually works.

If you can show something from the FAA to back up your assertions I would appreciate it.
 
“Henderson Executive Airport is owned by
Clark County and operated by the Clark County Department of Aviation, which runs the airport's fixed-base operator (FBO) services. There are no separate private FBO owners for the airport's main operations. The "Air Elite" program mentioned is a customer service program sponsored by World Fuel and is part of the Clark County employees' operations, not a separate, private FBO ownership”

And so on…

Have a nice day.
 
Tusayan said:
Again, just my opinion but I think some are either delusional, naive, on the receiving end or lacking in insight about where this slippery slope has led most countries airport infrastructure worldwide.
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What specific countries are you referring to? I'm not following what "slippery slope" you are referring to given there is not much comparison of the FAA system to the EASA or similar systems based on my overseas working experiences?
 
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