City of Austin is effectively closed to the little guys this weekend (It just ain't right...)
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It's funny how we all have our favorites! I won't go to Smitty's or Kreuz unless everyone else wants to go there. Blacks is good BBQ, but I like Terry's better.
Yeah, it's a stupid family fight! There are signs everywhere saying things like you've passed the original Blacks BBQ.
I've decided Terry Black's is my favorite. Not only is the BBQ good, but the place is new and clean and they were extending their outdoor seating area. The venue is the nicest place around.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Terry Black's is good Q, but you can get it anywhere in the state. Black's not quite as much, but getting there. Smitty's and Kreuz are only in Lockhart.
Larry in TN
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The airlines are significantly more efficient at moving passengers on a passenger-per-airline basis than the corporate jets. In a situation where infrastructure capacity is far exceeded by demand, it makes sense to structure your priorities in a way that benefits the most people.
A corporate jet with two or four passengers takes up the same amount of airport and ATC resources as an airliner with 180 passengers.
AUS airport sees 35,000 to 45,000 airline passengers per day on the busiest days surrounding an F1 event. It doesn't make sense to delay 10,000 to minimize delaying a few hundred.
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Honestly, if I want good BBQ, it's hard to beat Rudy's. It's a chain with 47 locations. I've never had bad service or bad bbq there. It's always exactly the same. Whatever their recipe is, it's consistent. That and their sauce is some of the best. It's also a good place to stop and grab ready-to-go breakfast tacos too.
pburger
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We were planning on Black's. I didn't realize that "Terry Black's" was separate and was a chain. Thanks for the clarification. It's been years since I've been there, but Black's was always the place to go. Thanks for the heads up!
pburger
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yes, I've seen the NOTAM now. My first step was to call the FBO which alerted me that the F1 was this weekend. No worries, I'm diverting to Fond Du Lac.
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I don't know if I'd say Terry Blacks is a chain. They both have multiple locations. Blacks has four, Terry Blacks has five and is opening a sixth. Honestly, you can't go wrong with either one!
Bacho
Line Up and Wait
Meh, My home airport (public owned) has decided it’s more interested in pursuing jet traffic and fees have been increased accordingly. You’re gonna have a hard time convincing me that it’s great thing for all purpose GA.
Some of the history.
The Battle of the Blacks, Barbecue's Biggest Beef
The two long-rivaling sides of the family have taken their spicy feud to the streets of Lockhart.
www.austinmonthly.com
It’s less that Terry Black’s is a chain and more that he operates more than one location.
KDCA has slots, the airlines computers get their planes on the list in milliseconds when the availability opens. I have landed in a Cessna 172, but at a time the airlines were not scheduled due to nighttime noise curfew.
There are a few non reserved slots that can be REQUESTED just before your flight, but there are gotcha's in those. They are "Time available" slots If congestion occurs, you lose.
A corporate Cessna 337 had such a slot, the weather deteriorated, and they had no slot when they arrived. Low clouds, they accepted vectors to Oxon Hill, flew parallel to the runway, and turned back. They hit a 230,000 volt power line, and all 4 occupants died.
They had the ability to fly to KBWI, but the important meeting was downtown DC, and KBWI was too far out.
As several have pointed out above, the airlines are hundreds of people in each slot, so the public is best served by the airlines getting the slots.
For the GA guys going to Austin, there is no valid choice but the smaller airports, that is where the BARBEQUE is!
There are a few non reserved slots that can be REQUESTED just before your flight, but there are gotcha's in those. They are "Time available" slots If congestion occurs, you lose.
A corporate Cessna 337 had such a slot, the weather deteriorated, and they had no slot when they arrived. Low clouds, they accepted vectors to Oxon Hill, flew parallel to the runway, and turned back. They hit a 230,000 volt power line, and all 4 occupants died.
They had the ability to fly to KBWI, but the important meeting was downtown DC, and KBWI was too far out.
As several have pointed out above, the airlines are hundreds of people in each slot, so the public is best served by the airlines getting the slots.
For the GA guys going to Austin, there is no valid choice but the smaller airports, that is where the BARBEQUE is!
Lindberg
Final Approach
They're both chains now, operated by brothers, great-grandsons of the founder.
Lindberg
Final Approach
We might be using different definitions, but I consider having multiple outlets under the same ownership to be the defining characteristic of a chain.Some of the history.
The Battle of the Blacks, Barbecue's Biggest Beef
The two long-rivaling sides of the family have taken their spicy feud to the streets of Lockhart.
It’s less that Terry Black’s is a chain and more that he operates more than one location.
Chain store - Wikipedia
Regardless, my real point was more that if I'm going to a small town to enjoy great barbecue, I'm not going to a spot I can eat at elsewhere.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
When I was 10 years old my dad took me with him to visit a few farms in the Austin area. My dad was an agriculture engineer who designed and built machinery for mechanical harvesting of crops trying to help small farms. He would talk to the farmers to see how the equipment was working and how it could be made better.
On the way home he stopped at a old looking brick building that looked like it was on fire. It was a restaurant, specifically BBQ, in Elgin, TX.
We sat at the old wooden chairs with an older looking table with sawdust on the floor. The waitress looked as if she started waitressing around the start of the war. Civil war, that is. She rolled out the butcher paper covering the table. Another person brought out the food. Sliced beef and mix sausage. There was no menu, just place the food on the table and start eating.
I have never had BBQ and sausage as good as that day. If I am going to eat BBQ, Elgin is the place for me. And I grew up on Slovacek Sausage from Snook, TX.
On the way home he stopped at a old looking brick building that looked like it was on fire. It was a restaurant, specifically BBQ, in Elgin, TX.
We sat at the old wooden chairs with an older looking table with sawdust on the floor. The waitress looked as if she started waitressing around the start of the war. Civil war, that is. She rolled out the butcher paper covering the table. Another person brought out the food. Sliced beef and mix sausage. There was no menu, just place the food on the table and start eating.
I have never had BBQ and sausage as good as that day. If I am going to eat BBQ, Elgin is the place for me. And I grew up on Slovacek Sausage from Snook, TX.
Southside Meat Market
Southside Market & Barbeque
Experience authentic Central Texas BBQ at Southside Market & Barbeque – serving quality meats since 1882. Enjoy our famous sausage, pork steaks, and BBQ sauces, available for dine-in, pickup, or nationwide shipping. Explore catering, events, and wholesale options today from the original Texas...
southsidemarket.com
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Thank you. That makes a big difference.
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The fact (which I did not know) that this is a private airport makes my original comment nonsensical.
However, I still want to address your comment: In a possible future where the number of airports is limited and business jets are present in larger numbers, this situation would be a precedent for discriminating against poorer pilots everywhere.
For public airports that are taxpayer-funded, there should not be a $1000+ charge for landing.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
While definitely not the same building, but sounds like the same BBQ.!! Wish I could remember the name of the place, but it has been over 50 years ago...Southside Meat Market
Southside Market & Barbeque
Experience authentic Central Texas BBQ at Southside Market & Barbeque – serving quality meats since 1882. Enjoy our famous sausage, pork steaks, and BBQ sauces, available for dine-in, pickup, or nationwide shipping. Explore catering, events, and wholesale options today from the original Texas...
Doc Holliday
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Supply and demand. Those jets buy lots of fuel and services. Why wouldn't a FBO business want them?
I think you misunderstand something. It's not a $1,000 landing fee, the airport authority doesn't get that money. It's a facility fee paid to the FBO.
Larry in TN
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Something else about AUS splitting the runways Airline/G.A.
When I was there on race day, the east side (G.A.) of the airport was gridlock. Over 100 corporate jets trying to taxi at the same time. The airlines kept the west runway busy and the east runway handled the G.A. traffic as fast as it could.
When I was there on race day, the east side (G.A.) of the airport was gridlock. Over 100 corporate jets trying to taxi at the same time. The airlines kept the west runway busy and the east runway handled the G.A. traffic as fast as it could.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
Some math based on the relative crappiness of the plane should be in order…
AFAIK in the case of Las Vegas during the F1 race its all of the local US taxpayer funded public airports, at all of which the airport authority is also the FBO operator. You cannot land at any of them during the event without paying an extreme fee, whether or not you use the FBO facilities. This is not a defensible situation, it is a broader trend towards European style profiteering and exclusion at US public use airports. The solution is no landing fees at public airports and public use ramps, making the FBOs optional.
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
I thought we were discussing KAUS?
I was discussing this quote, as were you. I was also pointing out that this is part of a larger and more onerous trend, the impact of which that should not be minimized.
Old97
Pre-takeoff checklist
Did you try coulter field? It doesn’t push my nostalgia button but it gets the job done. I am usually staying in Bryan anyway.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Whatever, since the OP was talking about Austin I assumed that this was part of it.
Yep, the market place in action.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
So… when the F1 is in town, do they charge a $100 toll on the highway for drivers? Supply and demand, after all…
Is the highway a private business?
Public airport runways are not private businesses either.
As mentioned, the solution of integrating private FBO businesses into taxpayer owned airport infrastructure is to mandate public parking so that the FBOs don’t have a monopoly based on the taxpayer owned runway (that the FBO did not build, does not own and does not maintain)
Doc Holliday
En-Route
If we are still talking about Austin, it's the fbo charging the event fee.
Then maybe someone should approach the Austin airport operations and request a public parking ramp, and while they are at it demand that no fees be charged for using this ramp.
Let's say they agree. The ramp is built (using FAA funds, Texas funds and County funds). Open ramp with tie down hooks (no ropes). Of course the new ramp is a mile or more from any facilities and has a security gate for road access.
Now what?
pburger
Pre-takeoff checklist
Point taken. We'll definitely consider the two local options you mentioned (Smitty's or Kreuz)We might be using different definitions, but I consider having multiple outlets under the same ownership to be the defining characteristic of a chain.
Chain store - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Regardless, my real point was more that if I'm going to a small town to enjoy great barbecue, I'm not going to a spot I can eat at elsewhere.
unsafervguy
En-Route
i agree, BUT, you have to remember it was also helped by the city screwing over everybody that was at meuller when they shut it down and refused to build GA facilities at the new airport.
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Twice a year our city hosts Ironman competitions,they close off city streets and restrict river traffic for the swim. Can you believe those bastards, closing streets my tax dollars pay for?
Now what, what?
FAA should require a public ramp at any airport above a threshold transient volume, to prevent FBOs from raping people using a taxpayer owned runway. The overnight fee on the public ramps for county airports in my area is equivalent to monthly tie down rates locally, about $5 a night IIRC. The coded security gates use e.g. the Ground Frequency as a code and no personnel are present.
One of the two public ramps at my base (KSEE) is across the street from a trolley station that can take you anywhere. Obviously that’s not typical but Uber works fine too in areas large enough to attract major events.
Now the FBO can charge jet traffic whatever that market will bear and the rest of the flying community uses public infrastructure (the runway, taxiways, ATC etc) without being ripped off by an FBO that is otherwise granted a government license to print money using that public infrastructure for its own benefit.
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Typical at most airports if there is any kind of big event happening.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
So you get your proposed ramp, but no way to get anywhere (no services). Should the FBO's be forced to service these free ramps with transportation, facilities or fuel?
Austin Bergstrom Airport is owned by the City of Austin. The owner of the airport makes the decisions on how the airport is used. The FAA does have Grant Assurances on airports that receive federal funding.
That's grand. KAUS is a Part 139 airport with scheduled airline service, thus it has a secure AOA. Doubt you will a gate with a code everyone knows and no personnel watching it.
That's the decision of the airport owner.
FBO's are granted leases on airport property through various processes by the owner of the airport (bids, proposals, etc). The FBO provides services and operate as a for profit entity, actually no different than a Service Station on a toll road area where the local government owns the property.
Obviously on an airport like KAUS the fbo's realize there is more money in business jets than small GA airplanes. I fly in often and never see any SE or light twin aircraft at the FBO.
There are airports in the area that do cater to small GA aircraft and have FBO's that don't do event fees.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Charging more than you are willing to pay, but what others are willing to pay, is not discriminating against you.
And as I’ve suggested, FAA should through those grant assurances ensure that the airports they fund provide services to taxpayers without putting an FBO lease holder in a monopoly position. The best way to do that is to mandate that the airport owner, not the leaseholding FBO, provide public parking to taxpayers at reasonable cost, making the use of luxury FBO services optional. If the airport owner also owns the FBO (something which arguably should be prohibited) the public ramp pricing should be regulated and used of a first come, first served basis.
In my experience when this system is in place FBOs on the field have no issue with selling fuel to anybody, anywhere, whether self service on their facility or off the truck anywhere at the airport. They then try to motivate people to rent ramp space on their leasehold by offering parking discounts to those who buy fuel from them. Obviously that parking is still more costly than public parking, but people who want what they offer still buy it without subsidies from those who just want to use the taxpayer funded public airport, not the FBO.
Nobody nowadays needs an FBO to provide transport in areas where this kind of gouging happens. As I said, Uber works fine, the world has moved on.
All this works fine in real world practice and I think keeps the FBOs honest. It’s not a theory.
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
Perhaps you should petition the FAA to adopt your proposal.
So what should the FBO do if 99% of their business is jet aircraft, and that business is booming?
Should the airport owner require that FBO to accommodate small GA aircraft that add very little to the business bottom line?
I think you are not grasping the actual situation here. Austin Bergstrom is a large airline centric airport that also has a large corporate aviation base. Very little small plane GA activity.
There are satellite airports that accommodate the GA crowd with fbo’s that cater to them.
I fail to see the problem here. The corporate operators which make up the bulk of their (AUS fbo’s) business don’t have a problem with it.
This is more “tilting at the windmills” than anything else.
The broader problem is that US FBOs are slowly turning public infrastructure into a luxury commodity that generates high revenues for them, using a monopoly on access to taxpayer funded infrastructure to do it at the public expense. This will eventually kill US GA by making it like GA elsewhere, where it is already mostly dead as a result.