CFII

And we're full circle....

So if I get this right, a CFI-I has no special flight training certification/privileges to train/sign off an IR student that make him "authorized" than a CFI-nada EXCEPT that he also holds an IR beyond the Flight Instructor Certificate.

How many Flight Instructors are NOT also IR? Gotta be pretty rare...
 
paflyer said:
And we're full circle....

So if I get this right, a CFI-I has no special flight training certification/privileges to train/sign off an IR student that make him "authorized" than a CFI-nada EXCEPT that he also holds an IR beyond the Flight Instructor Certificate.

How many Flight Instructors are NOT also IR? Gotta be pretty rare...
Click to expand...


61.183(c)(2). You are going to have to improve your reading skills.

Bob
 
paflyer said:
And we're full circle....

So if I get this right, a CFI-I has no special flight training certification/privileges to train/sign off an IR student that make him "authorized" than a CFI-nada EXCEPT that he also holds an IR beyond the Flight Instructor Certificate.

How many Flight Instructors are NOT also IR? Gotta be pretty rare...
Click to expand...
You need an IR to be a CFI. You don't need one if you are going for your Sport CFI IIRC.
 
paflyer said:
And we're full circle....

So if I get this right, a CFI-I has no special flight training certification/privileges to train/sign off an IR student that make him "authorized" than a CFI-nada EXCEPT that he also holds an IR beyond the Flight Instructor Certificate.

How many Flight Instructors are NOT also IR? Gotta be pretty rare...
Click to expand...

Wow, you don't get it at all.
 
dmspilot said:
Wow, you don't get it at all.
Click to expand...

Speaking of smartasses...what am I not getting? Here's the typical progression as I understand it:

PPC = PP VFR only

IR = PP with IR privileges

CPC = CP with IR privileges

FIC = FI (includes all of the above)

Now here is the crux: is there additional training and a different IR to make ->

FIC-"I" ("Instrument" Flight Instructor)?

It will be news to me, but I'm not interested in pursuing the instructor route, so parsing the regs is not something that I've done.
 
paflyer said:
Speaking of smartasses...what am I not getting? Here's the typical progression as I understand it:

PPC = PP VFR only

IR = PP with IR privileges

CPC = CP with IR privileges

FIC = FI (includes all of the above)

Now here is the crux: is there additional training and a different IR to make ->

FIC-"I" ("Instrument" Flight Instructor)?

It will be news to me, but I'm not interested in pursuing the instructor route, so parsing the regs is not something that I've done.
Click to expand...

Your question was answered in posts 3, 20, 28, 33, 34, 35, and 40. Call me a smartass if you wish, but I don't see any point in putting forth the effort to write the same thing for an 8th time if you can't put forth the effort to read and understand the first seven.
 
dmspilot said:
Your question was answered in posts 3, 20, 28, 33, 34, 35, and 40. Call me a smartass if you wish, but I don't see any point in putting forth the effort to write the same thing for an 8th time if you can't be bothered to read and understand the first seven.
Click to expand...
You must have a lot of free time.
 
dmspilot said:
You must enjoy wasting other people's time. Why ask a question if you aren't going to read the answer?
Click to expand...
No one's making you reply.

From other posts the whole scene is as clear as mud. Quoting regs full of references to either regs doesn't "explain" things.

No one yet has explained clearly that there is additional training above the base "CFI" that gives them privileges to teach/sign off instrument students.

As far as I understand it, an IR "sticks" to every certificate. Maybe FI is a special case.
 
paflyer said:
As far as I understand it, an IR "sticks" to every certificate. Maybe FI is a special case.
Click to expand...

Your understanding is incorrect. The ratings on each certificate you hold are independent from one another.
 
dmspilot said:
Your understanding is incorrect. The ratings on each certificate you hold are independent from one another.
Click to expand...
So if I go get a CPC after getting an IR on a private cert I understand that there are no instrument tasks to be demonstrated on the checkride. I am then a commercial pilot with an instrument rating. It's the same rating in reality, just being applied to the new certificate. So a lot of what I'm reading as "explanations" seem like regulatory semantics.

How is that different from adding a FI certificate to the Commercial? It's still the same IR. There's only one IR. As I've said, there are probably very few if any FI's not already holding an IR.

So what is it that makes someone an instrument instructor beyond that? Another checkride ? Additional training?
 
paflyer said:
So if I go get a CPC after getting an IR on a private cert I understand that there are no instrument tasks to be demonstrated on the checkride. I am then a commercial pilot with an instrument rating. It's the same rating in reality, just being applied to the new certificate.
Click to expand...

That's because the instrument rating is attached to the pilot certificate. Private and commercial are grades of pilot certificate. You upgraded from a private pilot to a commercial pilot. The ratings stay the same.

paflyer said:
How is that different from adding a FI certificate to the Commercial?
Click to expand...

A flight instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. You don't upgrade from commercial pilot to flight instructor. You get a flight instructor certificate in addition to a pilot certificate. It has its own ratings.

paflyer said:
It's still the same IR. There's only one IR.
Click to expand...

No, it's not, and no, there isn't.
 
paflyer said:
Now here is the crux: is there additional training and a different IR to make ->

FIC-"I" ("Instrument" Flight Instructor)?

It will be news to me, .
Click to expand...
As many in this thread have already told you, Yes.

It would probably not be news if you were willing to read and understand the regs and the other posts on the subject (using the FAA'S terms would probably help too) and realized there are two separate and distinct instrument ratings involved. An Instrument Airplane rating on the pilot certificate and an Instrument Airplane rating on the instructor certificate. In order to give instrument training you must have both instrument ratings.

And yes, the CFI certificate's instrument rating involves separate training, separate knowledge test and a separate practical test than the ones for the pilot certificate and the CFI-Airplane rating.
 
Missed a few posts after writing my last one above.

PAflyer, who admits he is not interested enough to read the regs himself, either cannot or refuses to understand the many posts that answered him, trying different ways of saying the exact same thing.

"Cannot" would be a shame, but there are too many potential causes for that. "Refuses to" would be something else.
 
Last edited:
jordane93 said:
You need an IR to be a CFI. You don't need one if you are going for your Sport CFI IIRC.
Click to expand...

Not quite. As I pointed out already in the thread the requirement comes right out of 61.183:

(2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for—
(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;
(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or
(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating.
​
So, if you're getting an instructor certificate with airplane or powered-lift category ratings you need the corresponding instrument rating on your pilot certificate (the pilot certificate instrument rating has the category... mine says "instrument airplane"). It's an odd quirk on the rules that (i) and (ii) are listed seperately. I don't know of anything in the airplane category that doesn't fall under one or the other classes.

You also need it if you want the instrument rating on your instructor certificate (CFII).

You are right, the "Sport Pilot" rating on the instructor certificate is NOT one of the four items listed above.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And yes, the CFI certificate's instrument rating involves separate training, separate knowledge test and a separate practical test than the ones for the pilot certificate and the CFI-Airplane rating.
Click to expand...

That's all that needed to be said as Answer 1.

The personal attacks, which of course will be ignored by Mother Mod, don't help.
 
It should be noted that while the IR is a separate and distinctive rating on pilot and instructor certificates, not all ratings are.
There are some that do cross over.
 
Kritchlow said:
It should be noted that while the IR is a separate and distinctive rating on pilot and instructor certificates, not all ratings are.
There are some that do cross over.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, what are you thinking of specifically?
 
mondtster said:
I'm curious, what are you thinking of specifically?
Click to expand...
Well a CFI certificate drops the "Land & Sea" class ratings for one. If you have a SES on your pilot certificate and have a SE CFI cert, you're automatically covered for both.

Also I believe the same holds true for type ratings. One only needs category & class to go teach and sign off a jet type. (Not completely positive on that, but pretty sure)
 
Kritchlow said:
Well a CFI certificate drops the "Land & Sea" class ratings for one. If you have a SES on your pilot certificate and have a SE CFI cert, you're automatically covered for both.

Also I believe the same holds true for type ratings. One only needs category & class to go teach and sign off a jet type. (Not completely positive on that, but pretty sure)
Click to expand...

I figured that's what you were thinking of. It is something I discuss with anybody I work with who is seeking a flight instructor certificate.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well a CFI certificate drops the "Land & Sea" class ratings for one. If you have a SES on your pilot certificate and have a SE CFI cert, you're automatically covered for both.
Click to expand...

I don't see it that way. It's not a matter of the instructor being "automatically" covered. It's a matter of the instructor rating not being restricted to sea or land.
 
dmspilot said:
I don't see it that way. It's not a matter of the instructor being "automatically" covered. It's a matter of the instructor rating not being restricted to sea or land.
Click to expand...
You can look at it however way you want. Point is you don't need the rating on the CFI to do it.... but a CFI without an IR on the certificate is restricted.

That's my point.
 
Kritchlow said:
You can look at it however way you want. Point is you don't need the rating on the CFI to do it....
Click to expand...
You can't need or not need something that doesn't exist.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well a CFI certificate drops the "Land & Sea" class ratings for one. If you have a SES on your pilot certificate and have a SE CFI cert, you're automatically covered for both.

Also I believe the same holds true for type ratings. One only needs category & class to go teach and sign off a jet type. (Not completely positive on that, but pretty sure)
Click to expand...
The more or less semantic argument over whether it's is a "carryover" or "not restricted" or some other descriptive phrase aside, I'm pretty sure you are correct. The list of ratings available with the CFI certificate is not coextensive with the list of ratings available for pilot certificates. 61.5(c) does not mention type ratings, so you are left with needing the applicable category/class for the CFI coupled with any sub-class (my word) or type ratings being on the commercial pilot certificate.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The more or less semantic argument over whether it's is a "carryover" or "not restricted" or some other descriptive phrase aside, I'm pretty sure you are correct. The list of ratings available with the CFI certificate is not coextensive with the list of ratings available for pilot certificates. 61.5(c) does not mention type ratings, so you are left with needing the applicable category/class for the CFI coupled with any sub-class (my word) or type ratings being on the commercial pilot certificate.
Click to expand...

I'd be very surprised if they don't line those up before I'm an old man. It'll take an accident to trigger it. Someone teaching something they probably had no business teaching.

And then they'll add the ride and another little column to the add-on table.
 
denverpilot said:
I'd be very surprised if they don't line those up before I'm an old man. It'll take an accident to trigger it. Someone teaching something they probably had no business teaching.

And then they'll add the ride and another little column to the add-on table.
Click to expand...
Other than a severe overreaction, like the one that arose from the Colgan crash, I'm guessing not. Three reasons I think so.

  • The instructor for a type rating is, from a regulatory perspective, at least a commercial pilot who has already passed a checkride for the the type rating, and a CFI rated for the the category and class of aircraft. He also has the minimum 5 hours in type, although realistically, probably much more.
  • From a practical perspective, most type ratings are acquired in a Part 135 or 121 program. So the instructor is going to be a type rated ATP in an approved FAA training program and, technically, doesn't even have to be a CFI.
  • Insurance requirements will take care of the rest.
I've been wrong before and I guess things can get out of kilter with personal jets, but I suspect the insurance thing will be the final practical arbiter.
 
Similarly, while there is a category on the instrument rating for pilot certificates, there's no class. An INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE is good for land or sea, single or multi (it's also good for gliders, go figure). There are also INSTRUMENT HELICOPTER (not rotorcraft in general) and INSTRUMENT POWERED LIFT ratings. However, on the flight instructor certificate, there's just a single INSTRUMENT rating. This is why there are helicopters on the II and IGI writtens.
 
If you are a CFI, and get a Seaplane rating with commercial, you are qualified to teach Seaplane rating. There is no "CFI seaplane" rating.
 
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