Can we talk about checklists

[dtuuri]

Checklists can be used as "read and do" lists, "briefing" lists or "did" lists depending on the particular flight phase, the aircraft involved, the pilot's experience with the aircraft and generally, and other factors.

"Read and do" - read and step and do it - is mostly used by new pilots and pilots in new-to-them aircraft as they are learning different cockpit flows. Some, of course, never get past that stage.

"Briefing" - Best example is before takeoff, especially for those who fly different types aircraft. I use my checklist to "brief" from Vr through the transition to en route climb. I'm kind of hoping no one starts tolling down the runway and then looks at a checklist for the first time to see when to rotate (read-and-do), or, for that matter, takes off and then checks back to see whether they did it right ("did").

"Did" list. Also what some folks will refer to as a real "check" list. That's the flow followed by a check. i think the first one of those taught to most pilots is the preflight inspection - examine a segment of the airplane with a flow and check back to see if you managed to miss something.

I use a combination of "briefing" and "did" usage. "Briefing" for takeoff and before landing. Flow and "did" for most everything else.

Very nice summation. I would add that emergency checklists are "Read and do" except for recall items, even with professional pilots who fly every day. They are usually of a "Challenge and response" format, which I found to sometimes caused confusion, since the challenger is schooled to read the response as well and then the responder verifies and restates it. I rewrote them to simply state the action required. Then the responder could make an appropriate response as the situation called for.

dtuuri

 

[MAKG1]

Aside from use, IMO the single biggest problem with checklists are ones that are too long and too detailed on non-essentials. Do you really need the "Throttle - FULL OPEN" in the takeoff checklist?

That's a reason I am a big fan of roll-your-own checklists that contain both content and format that are meaningful to you, even if it makes no sense to someone else.

Well, some airplanes have throttle less than full for takeoff. E.g. Turbo 206s have throttle to 40 inches. So, there is some meaning in that. There is also order. You go to full throttle AFTER full rich mixture.

 

[FastEddieB]

When flying single pilot, do you pull out and read the landing checklist?

Yes, though in my case I keep it visible on my kneeboard.

It's only three items on my Sky Arrow:

Seat Belts - FASTENED
Boost pump - ON
Brakes - CHECKED

And admittedly the first is kinda silly. But I still run through the list as a good habit.

Any time there's an accident or incident where the pilot says he or she "forgot" to do something, most often improper checklist use is the proximate cause.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well, some airplanes have throttle less than full for takeoff. E.g. Turbo 206s have throttle to 40 inches. So, there is some meaning in that. There is also order. You go to full throttle AFTER full rich mixture.

You might find it equally disconcerting that I don't see a need for entries to reduce prop RPM on takeoff or even to check gear down and locked before landing in a Cessna 172

As I said, the personal checklist meant for me might not make sense to you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Very nice summation. I would add that emergency checklists are "Read and do" except for recall items, even with professional pilots who fly every day. They are usually of a "Challenge and response" format, which I found to sometimes caused confusion, since the challenger is schooled to read the response as well and then the responder verifies and restates it. I rewrote them to simply state the action required. Then the responder could make an appropriate response as the situation called for.

dtuuri

We can probably quibble a bit on whether it's "read and do" or "flow and did." But either way, I definitely agree that, assuming there is enough time, the written checklist is an essential item in handling most emergency.

Of course, the professional 2-pilot cockpit must have consistent procedures and "I'll take care of the memory items while you pull out the checklist" an SOP for very good reasons.

 

[luvflyin]

I did them religiously, for all phases of flight. I learned the "flow" concept and following up with checklist on a forum similar to this one and use that concept today in the air. On the ground I use the complete checklist. Always using the checklist in the plane became a problem when I started renting from a club that has many airplanes, all lease back and the club has no standardized checklist format, it's just what the owner decides to put in the plane. Some you practically need a magnifying glass to read some them. Some are wrong for the model. One had a Knot list in a MPH airplane. Some aren't there and you had to use the POH. I have a generic list now that I made to cover all the planes I fly. It's in my format and I never get lost in it flipping pages. Some items get a "gear down and welded" or similar comment.

 

[FreqFlyrJr]

Low time pilot here who has been grilled for not using a checklist all through training. I use a checklist for every phase of flight; not just any checklist though.

I've compiled everything in the POH as well as operating supplements and manuals that I'm required to carry and created my own checklist. You learn a lot about your plane when you write your own checklists and revise them over time. I'm on my 4th revision so far.

By doing this, you also know the checklist a world better than you would otherwise. Therefore, I can start doing "flows" off of the checklist and then back myself up after doing everything.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I did them religiously, for all phases of flight. I learned the "flow" concept and following up with checklist on a forum similar to this one and use that concept today in the air. On the ground I use the complete checklist. Always using the checklist in the plane became a problem when I started renting from a club that has many airpl.anes, all lease back and the club has no standardized checklist format, it's just what the owner decides to put in the plane. Some you practically need a magnifying glass to read some them. Some are wrong for the model. One had a Knot list in a MPH airplane. Some aren't there and you had to use the POH. I have a generic list now that I made to cover all the planes I fly. It's in my format and I never get lost in it flipping pages. Some items get a "gear down and welded" or similar comment.

I do something similar. Generic template. Things where I want them to be so I can locate them easily. But the checklist itself is make/model specific.

For the new-to-me aircraft, the first thing I do is review the manual. As part of that review, I use the template to create the first draft of the new model checklist. The familiarization flight is an opportunity to tweak it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Low time pilot here who has been grilled for not using a checklist all through training. I use a checklist for every phase of flight; not just any checklist though.

I've compiled everything in the POH as well as operating supplements and manuals that I'm required to carry and created my own checklist. You learn a lot about your plane when you write your own checklists and revise them over time. I'm on my 4th revision so far.

By doing this, you also know the checklist a world better than you would otherwise. Therefore, I can start doing "flows" off of the checklist and then back myself up after doing everything.

 

[uncreative]

I got out of the habit of using checklists because the planes I usually fly are so simple, but when I landed at 3am one morning without the carb heat applied in conditions where I probably needed it, I realized that not using checklists is just sloppy airmanship.

Jason Miller discussed this on his Finer Points podcast recently and advocated for a Read-do list on the ground and a flow backed up by checklist in the air. Seems to work well for me.

 

[luvflyin]

For the landing checklist, I develop a cadence that will be noticeably incomplete if something is missing.........

I do that to. My GUMP has become CBGUMPFS, done usually 3 or 4 times never skipping anything no matter what the conditions are. Even though it's the landing check, I start doing them when I begin descent. The first one gets responses like "not yet" "richen on the way down" etc. My last verbal call out is "on final, stabilized, gear down, lose ## on go around(degrees of flaps to dump right away)

 

[FreqFlyrJr]

I'm all for verbal flows and calling things out, but I'm adamant that having it all written down on a checklist is important. I can imagine myself in many a scenario where the pressure is high enough that I forget small things like Carb Heat which turn out to be not so small.

 

[luvflyin]

I'm all for verbal flows and calling things out, but I'm adamant that having it all written down on a checklist is important. I can imagine myself in many a scenario where the pressure is high enough that I forget small things like Carb Heat which turn out to be not so small.

I can't agree with that more. If you're responding to my last post, it was in response to a previous post about keeping a cadence for the verbal checks. I will have always done the printed checklist check by the time I am entering the pattern. After that, it's head out of the cockpit and a couple more CBGUMPFS

 

[James331]

Another aspect of checklists is not letting them get too long, having a huge multi page checklist is how checklists ether don't get used or cause more trouble than good.

 

[azpilot]

Another aspect of checklists is not letting them get too long, having a huge multi page checklist is how checklists ether don't get used or cause more trouble than good.

This is actually something I see at work a lot. I work in the Aerospace industry. When we have issues during test, our quality department always wants to "fix" the problem by adding more instructions to the procedures. Now, I know it's different that flying, but some of our test procedures are well over a hundred pages long. At some point, the technicians that are doing the testing, just stop reading the procedures, and start doing what they they think they are supposed to. In that environment, adding more instructions doesn't help, it makes it work.

 

[jordane93]

Another aspect of checklists is not letting them get too long, having a huge multi page checklist is how checklists ether don't get used or cause more trouble than good.

One page doubled sided is the longest I want my checklist to be.

 

[James331]

One page doubled sided is the longest I want my checklist to be.

Exactly.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One page doubled sided is the longest I want my checklist to be.

Although I did that for years, I've actually gone the other way on that.

My premium is on ease of use and clarity. I'm not going to shrink the font just so I can fit everything on one or two pages. I make a distinction between content and format. I like simplied content on readable format.

So right now, my Cessna 172 checklist is 4 pages long. Page 1 only fills up half the page since it stops at the en route climb. Page 2 continues with cruise though shutdown and includes a table of my preferred instrument approach settings.

Page 3 is emergency procedures, and page 4 a quick reference to information on the airplane like basic weight and balance information, fuel planing information and how much pressure the tires take.

Some of the other airplanes I fly have more. Some of them have interesting and different systems and I like to have a quick reference in easy reach for those.

99% of the flights are on the first two pages. Big print. easy to read.

 

[James331]

Although I did that for years, I've actually gone the other way on that.

My premium is on ease of use and clarity. I'm not going to shrink the font just so I can fit everything on one or two pages. I make a distinction between content and format. I like simplied content on readable format.

So right now, my Cessna 172 checklist is 4 pages long. Page 1 only fills up half the page since it stops at the en route climb. Page 2 continues with cruise though shutdown and includes a table of my preferred instrument approach settings.

Page 3 is emergency procedures, and page 4 a quick reference to information on the airplane like basic weight and balance information, fuel planing information and how much pressure the tires take.

Some of the other airplanes I fly have more. Some of them have interesting and different systems and I like to have a quick reference in easy reach for those.

99% of the flights are on the first two pages. Big print. easy to read.

I think the think is you shouldn't need to shrink the text to fit a fixed gear GA piston single checklist on one sheet.

I'm a complex plane and I even added a few speeds and cruise table because I had room to spare.

Here's one for a 4 engined B-17 bomber

 

[txflyer]

Got a snap today of my thru-view checklist. It isn't all inclusive, but good 'nuff after the first start of the day using my long list.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the think is you shouldn't need to shrink the text to fit a fixed gear GA piston single checklist on one sheet.

I've seen yours before and I really like it.

But we all have our preferences. That's what's nice about rolling your own.

I could definitely consolidate mine more than I have. But leaving it as it is - easy and familiar - outweighs whatever additional benefit I might get. Perhaps in revision 15...

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the think is you shouldn't need to shrink the text to fit a fixed gear GA piston single checklist on one sheet.

I've seen yours before and I really like it. Print is a little small for me though.

We all have our preferences. That's what's nice about rolling your own.

I could definitely consolidate mine more than I have. But leaving it as it is - easy and familiar - outweighs whatever additional benefit I might get. Perhaps in revision 15...

 

[James331]

I've seen yours before and I really like it.

But we all have our preferences. That's what's nice about rolling your own.

I could definitely consolidate mine more than I have. But leaving it as it is - easy and familiar - outweighs whatever additional benefit I might get. Perhaps in revision 15...

Indeed.

I did see one one multi page one and Kenmore air I liked, easy to flip and for each state of flight, it was laminated into little 3x3 squares, color coded too

 

[RalphInCA]

I did not read all the comments, but flow THEN checklist?

I do the opposite. Checklist and then flow. Am I going to die?

 

[txflyer]

I did not read all the comments, but flow THEN checklist?

I do the opposite. Checklist and then flow. Am I going to die?

Yes. You're going to be a smoking hole we all pile on and criticize.

 

[MAKG1]

I did not read all the comments, but flow THEN checklist?

I do the opposite. Checklist and then flow. Am I going to die?

No, but I don't understand what you mean.

You read the whole checklist then execute it with a flow?

 

[RalphInCA]

No, but I don't understand what you mean.

You read the whole checklist then execute it with a flow?

I can see now your confusion.

Now that I am thinking this through, what I have been doing doesn't really make sense.

I have been going through the checklist, and then double checking right before take off with a flow "just to be sure everything is good".

Probably overkill.

Which would not be surprising, I tend to be a very cautious pilot.

 

[James331]

I did not read all the comments, but flow THEN checklist?

I do the opposite. Checklist and then flow. Am I going to die?

No. But you're not operating as efficiently/quickly as you could.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Indeed.

I did see one one multi page one and Kenmore air I liked, easy to flip and for each state of flight, it was laminated into little 3x3 squares, color coded too

My breaking the checklist into individual phase of flight pages was pretty much the outgrowth of moving my checklists to PDF on my tablet. Sliding to the next page was so easy, why force it? Electronic checklists tend to work that way and some of them even use one page for one single item!

What I found along the way was that I actually preferred my paper checklists in a number of situations so I've started to consolidate them again.

Maybe funny. No paper charts as backup but paper checklists as backup.

 

[jaymark6655]

I follow the checklist. A lot of stuff I can do just based on flow, but then one day I got my hand smacked for cutting the mixture with the avionics switch still on. Checklist I have clips to my knee board and is seven pages long with everything from preflight to post flight. There is another 4 pages that is just reference like weight and balance calculations, cross wind chart, aircraft specs and a crew brief card.

 

[Kritchlow]

I follow the checklist. A lot of stuff I can do just based on flow, but then one day I got my hand smacked for cutting the mixture with the avionics switch still on. Checklist I have clips to my knee board and is seven pages long with everything from preflight to post flight. There is another 4 pages that is just reference like weight and balance calculations, cross wind chart, aircraft specs and a crew brief card.

Cutting mixture before avionics can happen with or without a checklist.... Unless you use your checklist as a "DO" list, which I am not a fan.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Cutting mixture before avionics can happen with or without a checklist.... Unless you use your checklist as a "DO" list, which I am not a fan.

You might consider treating that checklist as a briefing rather than a flow check.

But either way, cutting the mixture before turning off the avionics master is hardly a killer item for you or the airplane.

 

[denverpilot]

You might consider treating that checklist as a briefing rather than a flow check.



But either way, cutting the mixture before turning off the avionics master is hardly a killer item for you or the airplane.

You can get some voltage changes that some avionics don't like, but it's mostly a nitpick. If the battery system is working correctly you won't be going out of any bounds the avionics shouldn't be able to handle.

I like mine off before killing the mixture, but some aircraft don't even have an avionics master and their checklists have you leave the master on for the beacon or other anti-collision lighting until the prop stops swinging.

My POH doesn't even mention the avionics master since it didn't exist on the aircraft when it left Cessna. My aftermarket checklist card for the same model does mention it, interestingly.

 

[luvflyin]

I can see now your confusion.

Now that I am thinking this through, what I have been doing doesn't really make sense.

I have been going through the checklist, and then double checking right before take off with a flow "just to be sure everything is good".

Probably overkill.

Which would not be surprising, I tend to be a very cautious pilot.

Checklist followed by flow didn't make any sense to me either but I see you were talking about departure. I, and I think someone else mentioned it to, use the checklists on the ground and flow backed by checklists in the air. The only thing I do on the ground that isn't item by item from the checklist is a "lights camera action" just before rolling. Even in the air the initial descent check I usually do from the checklist.

 

[Kritchlow]

You might consider treating that checklist as a briefing rather than a flow check.

But either way, cutting the mixture before turning off the avionics master is hardly a killer item for you or the airplane.

I agree... My point was to use an established flow, then back up the biggies with a checklist. So, mixture before avionics can happen if one bungles their flow, but it's not a critical item.
I do believe we are saying the same thing here...9

 

[steingar]

The most ironic thing is I had CFIs lecturing me that I should use checklists in flight in my Cherokee. I steadfastly refused, since there was nothing I was likely to do to break the airplane, but while my eyes were inside I could run into someone. Now it is the complete opposite, I use checklists in flight in the Mooney, because I can indeed break the airplane, and there really is a lot to do. I used them religiously for preflight in the Cherokee, but haven't been using on for preflight in the Mooney, only because I haven't a good checklist. I will break down and develop one for the Mooney.

 

[azpilot]

For those of you that rent airplanes, do you just use the checklist the FBO give you? Have any of you ever made your own checklist for a rental plane?

 

[eetrojan]

For those of you that rent airplanes, do you just use the checklist the FBO give you? Have any of you ever made your own checklist for a rental plane?

I'm a renter and prefer to make my own checklists.

The rental fleet includes several different Cessnas. There are some carbureted 172P models, and there are some fuel injected 172R and 172S models.

In order to work through and think about the similarities and differences between the various models, most notably the different engine start procedures, I made this "combined" checklist.

A lot of the "mixture" entries are still highlighted because I originally trained in a plane that didn't have a mixture control and I'm still working through my thoughts on that.

I print it on both sides of a page and fold it in thirds.

 

[OkieAviator]

For those of you that rent airplanes, do you just use the checklist the FBO give you? Have any of you ever made your own checklist for a rental plane?

When I was renting for my PPL I made my own checklists... started off as an extremely exhausting 4 page list giving me writeups on when I check say the flaps, what am I looking for.

I ended up doing several iterations through training and in the end had a 1 page front and back 9x6 card. I still use this today but it incorporates my flows starting with my preflight CIGARS through CGUMPS... works well on an extremely simple 172 to fly.

 

[CrimsonFlyer]

As a renter, I also make my own checklists. I want to include my own items such as personal minimums, "ANR on," "Stratus on," etc. They are PDF files viewed in Foreflight. Separate ones for Warrior, Archer II, and Archer III. Just copy and modify. As midlifeflyer has mentioned, it's very easy to move from page to page if the checklist is electronic. I do have paper copies as backup.


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