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Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by WannFly, Nov 21, 2017.
You can bet I would log it. I just would not use it for a resume builder....
You can log anything you want... it just won't count toward any rating or currency requirement.
Whaaat? If I can land a 747 without training, imagine how well I will land with training.... All the airlines should flock to get me on their payroll.
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Went ugly early eh?
Reminds me of a story... Jose said she was big as the wall...
A Loadmaster and a Flight Engineer did a takeoff, several hour x-ctry flight, and landed a C-130E, to my certain knowledge. The Load was a PPL, SEL, and in the left seat. Beer was consumed later. Things like that could happen "back in the day", especially when the crew was all in their 20's.
It was logged. . .
Back in the 60s I think a C130 was taken by a young airman who was having some kind of problems at home in the states. Think he was at a base in England. ZRumor was they couldn't talk him into returning, and that he was shot down. Don't know the real story, just what I heard.
Yes it's 'on' now that he's Captain!
With enough thrust...
They just have to revert to their student pilot days, then?
And then the airplane calls them a retard if they succeed. Nice.
I’ve landed the 757 and the 747 sims at TK. The other thing to note is in a crosswind above max demonstrated in the 74, don’t use much aileron, you’ll drag an outboard engine nacelle.
I wasn’t expecting that. Thankfully in the sim, nobody dies. (And it was a setup... and I fell for it... “want a crosswind?”... damnit.)
A few times.
But I have managed to do much better since then.
some people wise up, others dont (me)
"Don't the Girls All Get Prettier at Closing Time"
- Mickey Gilley
Or like 'Dog way before the band even plays the first note of the night!
Hey now, if the end result is going to be the same, why wait?
I didn't say I disagreed. Many who wait go home without.
At an Avsim conference (an organization of serious sim users) they had a presentation about this. They had 5 sim users who had no flight experience, but lots of experience with a 747 model in MS Flight Sim and put them in a real full motion 747 simulator to see if they could land it. They weren't allowed to use the autopilot and had no coaching. They all did pretty good in normal conditions and successfully landed for the most part. Once a cross wind or engine out scenario was added, they almost all crashed.
When doing the ATOP program, I did 2 landings in a B737 full motion sim with simulated CAVU one time and 500’ OVC the other (ILS).
I’m not sure any pax onboard would have felt the difference between me and a “real” 737 pilot. Of course this was without emergencies (they gave me the hydraulics back in approach). I was being coached over my shoulder the whole time re- V speeds, etc.
Here’s one landing (this is me).
This is my other landing. (Ok, maybe I got lucky...
Here are some of the other folks... none of us crashed.
This was the most painful one, still, no injuries...
I'd die trying!
I’d say it’s absolutely possible. As a PPL you have a lot of the lingo down and general understanding of what’s going down. That would be the hardest part about the whole thing is if the person had no aviation knowledge
The CRJ would actually be more difficult than the 747, the CRJ you have no autothrottle or autoland, while not a difficult plane to land, the energy management and sight pictures are vastly different, but I feel it could be done...
As for the 747, sure it could! It has autoland, along with most other Boeing and Airbus products! All it would take is someone to walk you through setting up an autoland. And in the case of the Boeing, all you’d have to do is pull the thrust levers to idle at the appropriate time, I’m not familiar with the Airbus in that regard
As for the knowledgeable controller comment. All that would need to be done is get an instructor patched in via airinc or atc to be able to talk to the pilot as well, controller tells instructor, instructor tells person in the flight deck, if the instructor even had a cockpit poster of the plane he’d be able to walk the person through setting up an autoland
Anyway that’s my take, I think it can be done, especially on planes where you can have the person set up an autoland
Based on the whopping total of 15 minutes and two approaches to land in United’s 757 simulator I’d say yes. Of course in my case the instructor started me with the aircraft on glideslope and on-speed at the outer marker.
I got the chance when United let all the pilots that attended a FAA sponsored safety training session get to sit in the left seat. Since an instructor was leading the excercise he even signed off the time in my log book. That is the only multi-engine time in my book but it’s going to be hard to beat.
I thought I had done a pretty good job until he had the plane fly the approach and land on its own. Talk about smooth.
Okay... I've expressed my views earlier and stand by them.
That said, all these guys that have done it in the sim....
the sim is a GREAT place to practice scenarios, but not the most realistic to practice landings. Yes the sight picture is reasonably correct so I'm guessing most (as I said in earlier posts) could land the airplane. And I also Stand by my earlier posts that it wouldn't be pretty.
“All that would need to be done” ... there’s a number of recordings of events that lasted HOURS where the pilot or non-pilot specifically requested an instructor be found, and none ever was. It’s far more common that none is found versus one being available to answer questions or coach.
It’s like any other emergency. If there’s no plan, it won’t happen. Most control facilities do NOT have a list of experienced instructors who are willing to do this nor any plans to create one. The outcome of that is, only if someone knows someone who knows someone has someone in their cell phone, does it actually happen.
It’s also a lot harder to “patch in” someone on the phone than most people think. Controllers tend to NOT ask the pilot to change frequencies if at all possible, and only a few companies have phone patch capability. FAA has virtually none on their systems. The tech is certainly available but it isn’t installed on the vast majority of control frequencies. About the best you’re going to get is if a controller IS an instructor in that facility and sits down at the console and plugs in. I haven’t run across many recordings of that happening.
Usually the scenario ends up that some instructor with no time in type is found and is giving basic hints to the controllers about what to say from a cell phone call, which is being passed from a controller or supervisor to the on console controller via the old “telephone game” method. It ain’t great but it’s better than nothing.
Being able to talk to company over a frequency ie airinc etc is fairly common, it wouldn’t be difficult to get in touch with them. Also in such a scenario I don’t believe the company would have a difficult time getting a hold of an instructor for that aircraft seeing as at least one is always roaming around the training center somewhere. At least the two airlines I have flown for I believe would be able to get an instructor pretty quick. Getting an instructor in the atc facility might not be that feasable but being able to get the transfer of information around in a true emergency of this nature I believe could be done
Sounds good on paper. Been in a Level D airliner sim? Know how to operate the radios and switch the intercom? Even know how to dual dual-watch between two radios?
It’s not as straightforward as you think. First of all it’s going to be on the pedestal behind or just to the side of you and not in the panel or on the glareshield. That’ll be your first “WTF” moment.
Next, it won’t look like any GA audio panel setup you’ve seen.
But besides ALL of that, the controller doesn’t know you from Adam. They know someone sat in the freshly vacated seat of either a disabled or dead guy (perhaps after helping two other people wrestle the dead weight out of it) and put on their headset. That person figured out that pulling the trigger switch on the yoke (it’s not a button, and usually it moves two ways, both fore and aft) got them a controller.
First things first, the aircraft is likely crippled or damaged in some way to even have an event of this magnitude. Maybe a rapid decompression. Maybe losing fuel. Maybe an engine out. The controller doesn’t know.
They are NOT going to try to walk you through changing frequencies away from them unless they’re solidly sure you know EXACTLY how to do it. And not to a “company” frequency unless they have “company” on the phone and a solid feel that “company” can handle vectors, clearing traffic, calling traffic, etc. Not a chance in hell. Their primary job is still to keep you from hitting OTHER aircraft.
You think it wouldn’t be hard. It might not be. But if the front windows are blown out and the cockpit is a mass of Caution and Warning lights when you arrive, and you have Systems to learn in record time to keep all the fuel on board and secure dead engines, etc... the last thing you’re going to be doing IF you get it all under some semblance of control, and keep the thing in the air, is fiddling around with the radios. The most you’re going to want to do in that overloaded situation is ask the controller what frequency you’re ON, find the radio that has that frequency on it, and when they need you to switch, switch making sure you go right BACK to the frequency you just left if no response on the new one. You won’t have time to teach yourself the audio panel.
And THAT is the unrealistic part of the “private pilot lands simulator” scenario. I’ve done it. It wasn’t bad. There wasn’t a single thing wrong with the aircraft. Add failures commensurate with an event that would disable the pilots and any deadheads such that I find myself in the left seat playing hero pilot on TV, you’re going to be really damn busy fixing the airplane and securing it in such a way as you get to a known amount of flight time and know where you are. Let alone setting up the FMS for an autoland in a broken airliner.
The second is when you remember that you had the fish dinner, too ...
How hard could it be.....?
One takeoff, no landing. Of course there's been a mech that stole an A-4 in the Marines and one that took up an F-86 in the AF that landed them.
Basic airmanship is one thing; dealing with systems and procedures is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.
Years ago I had occasion to give some dual in a Cherokee 180 to a military-trained airline pilot with zero GA experience. He had some things to get used to, as well.
Oh I don’t know...according to my CFI I flare anywhere from 10’ to 50’ or more above the ground.
Of course if there’s a million emergencies etc it wouldn’t be easy at all, and it wouldn’t be easy from the beginning regardless. I’m talking about the straight situation. Private pilot in the flight deck at cruise can you get him down.
I stand by yes. And of course the controller won’t tell you how to fly the plane but they could find someone who could help. With time, which obviously you may or not have fuel emergency depending etc. but if you had time, and gas. Yes you could walk someone through it, I stick by that
And the two jets I’ve got types in th radio panel is pretty straight forward. I believe a private pilot could figure out how to work the radio to get to speak to the controller
In any case it’s a highly unlikely scenario and I hope no ever has to find out the real answer to this question
Mythbusters sort of covered this, both of those non-PP guys could land with lots of radio help.
My first question would be.... "How do you work the ejection seat..??"
I figure I couldn't do any worse than those Asiana Airlines guys did with that 777 at SFO a few years ago.
I don’t think you’re wrong in that if everything is working fine, it’s an airplane. But I agree with @Krichlow that it’s not likely to be pretty. Ugly and everyone alive would be a pretty good outcome.
The recordings of folks landing various smaller things and even the famous King Air guy don’t support the idea that the controllers will ever find real aeronautical help unless it’s close at hand. In the King Air incident, if I recall correctly, one of the controllers was an instructor and his interview words afterword were along the lines of, “I didn’t want to tell him to do anything that would kill all of them.”
Besides the difficulty finding an instructor without a solid plan to do so, which almost no facilities have, but COULD if their Safety reps are on the ball, there’s the problem of the instructor not being able to see anything in that cockpit and having to play 20-questions — quickly, and in the correct order — to assess any changes requested. Basically that instructor needs time in type to be able to visualize exactly what things are going to do in that cockpit.
In King Air guy’s case, he knew the autopilot was on, and he kept asking the controllers how to turn it off so he could hand fly it. That took an inordinately long time to get him that answer. The instructor they had available on the ground wasn’t there yet.
The answer, “Before you press it, let me tell you all of this... there’s an autopilot disconnect button along with other buttons on the yoke... and when you press it there’s going to be a loud audible warning when the autopilot disconnects. Be ready for any out of trim situation where the aircraft may want to pitch or roll immediately upon disconnect... if you understand that let me know and be ready.” ... never came. The guy figured it out on his own.
Telling him step by step how to program the nav source and get that thing configured to fly an approach or similar would be a very touchy and time-sensitive exercise. All depends on how fast someone can learn and their general familiarity with advanced avionics.
He also kept asking for an approach speed and the answers coming back weren’t great. They felt “wishy washy” if you listen to it. The ground assumption was basically, “Its flying at that speed, use that.” They did at least remind him to get the gear and flaps down, but he was ahead of the game on those by then in the recording.
The simpler the systems, the easier talking someone through using them is going to be. Any complex systems mixed with failures is going to be very very difficult for the person on the ground. They’re having to imagine what the indications are doing and ask pointed questions to confirm them, all under a time constraint. The airplane and the inexperienced pilot are going somewhere and going there pretty fast.
Similarly the wife who landed something else... I forget what it was... that recording is fraught with problems but she stepped up and figured out a number of things. At one point in her recording she got impatient with them, “I need to go to an airport now...” she had it under control but they were unsure on the ground and were figuring out what to tell her.
In both scenarios the “pressed into service pilots” actually knew what questions they needed answers to, and both got iffy responses. Not a condemnation of the controllers in any way, but it’s clear in recordings of this stuff that ATC isn’t prepped for this very well. It’s rare enough it’s not a planned emergency nor practiced ahead of time by anyone.
Just not enough hours in the day nor resources to do it.