Calling Tower for Departure

D

DCR

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jun 14, 2023
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rudy
This is in reference to an airport with tower and ground controllers.

I have learned the standard format for a radio call is:

Who you are calling
Who you are
Where you are
What you want

However, I often hear people skip the "where you are" part when making an inital call to tower for departure clearance. Is it implied that you are where you are supposed to be since you (hopefully) taxied via instructions from ground? I often hear this:

City tower
N123AB
Ready for departure

... is it standard / mandatory to add in a "runway XX" (after you state your callsign)?? As far as I can find the AIM only has an example for intersection departure, where stating your position is indeed required, but I always thought the "where you are" part was required for a regular departure too.
 
DCR said:
This is in reference to an airport with tower and ground controllers.

I have learned the standard format for a radio call is:

Who you are calling
Who you are
Where you are
What you want

However, I often hear people skip the "where you are" part when making an inital call to tower for departure clearance. Is it implied that you are where you are supposed to be since you (hopefully) taxied via instructions from ground? I often hear this:

City tower
N123AB
Ready for departure

... is it standard / mandatory to add in a "runway XX" (after you state your callsign)?? As far as I can find the AIM only has an example for intersection departure, where stating your position is indeed required, but I always thought the "where you are" part was required for a regular departure too.
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Don't skip with ground. They don't know where you are on the airport. Are you east ramp/west ramp/north hangars/south maintenance, etc..

Podunk Ground (or tower if same voice on both)
N12345
On west ramp
VFR north departure at 3500 with [ATIS]

[Taxi instruction]

N12345 ready at 26L
(Honestly I don't bother with the facility name when at the runway)

But I ALWAYS include the runway number Some airports (LEX is one maybe) have departure ends that intersect, make sure you are at the correct runway.
 
"Tower, N12345, ready for take-off runway XX"

Then it's a tedious discussion about how they don't have a runway "XX" and they use numbers. So I make up a number and they get mad. Then they instruct me to taxi back, but they're Tower and not Ground, so they don't have that authority and they're not the boss of me anyway.

Every. Single. Time.
 
DCR said:
. is it standard / mandatory to add in a "runway XX"
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The tower controller likely already knows where you are because the Ground controller either told him, or taxiied you to the standard takeoff runway for your type of aircraft.

Now, you asked, "mandatory". If it was mandatory then it would have to be in the regulations. The regulations which cover operations at airports are 14 CFR 91.126 through 91.131. 91.129 is operating at Class D airports but portions of the regs, back to 91.126, are incorporated by reference so start there. Those regulations tell you what's mandatory.

Next step is what is recommended. Check the P/CG, for phraseology definitions, and the AIM for recommendations for how to format your radio calls. You'll also find information about what is expected by ATC.
 
AvNavCom said:
"Tower, N12345, ready for take-off runway XX"

Then it's a tedious discussion about how they don't have a runway "XX" and they use numbers. So I make up a number and they get mad. Then they instruct me to taxi back, but they're Tower and not Ground, so they don't have that authority and they're not the boss of me anyway.

Every. Single. Time.
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XX is Runway 20 . . . :biggrin:
 
Smaller airports it probably doesn't matter. But I'd get in the habit of saying it like you're at a bigger airport so it is what you say when/if you are at a bigger airport.

The Runway or Runways in use the Tower obviously knows. But you could be departing holding short at any number of places. My old airport would almost always have people on either side of the runways and often you'd toss in someone that was not full length. So I was taught (or picked up): City Tower, Mooney 1234 number one Alpha. Or Alpha 2, etc.. at any number of Intersections, or either side of the runway. That would distinguish me from the guy over on the Delta side. Feel free to add Runway XX if you want, but it is redundant since they know the Runway/Runways in use.

Having said that there are exceptions. The Airport I'm at now has taxiways only on one side of the Airport, but they have parallel runways. So here I do not use the Taxiway, I'll use "number one 22 Right" or "22 Left" to confirm my location.
 
Anytown Tower
OICU812 Holding short 26
Ready to go
Departure to the East etc.
 
You should be telling ground your plans after takeoff and not need to repeat to tower.
 
Pinecone said:
You should be telling ground your plans after takeoff and not need to repeat to tower.
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eman1200 said:
I had to read it twice too. He’s saying when u call ground initially you tell them your direction of flight, which happens after takeoff, obviously.
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Not to pick nits, but technically that should be told to Clearance Delivery if available.
 
RyanB said:
Not to pick nits, but technically that should be told to Clearance Delivery if available.
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there is no CD at my class D so it's told to ground. NONE of which matters since that's not what the op asked about, he's asking about tower so not sure why anyone is talking about ground.
 
eman1200 said:
there is no CD at my class D so it's told to ground. NONE of which matters since that's not what the op asked about, he's asking about tower so not sure why anyone is talking about ground.
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What is 118.55 for?

I just figured I’d bring up something completely unasked for, just because that’s what we do on PoA. :)
 
RyanB said:
What is 118.55 for?
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that's for ordering pizza, as far as I know.

cd has been non-existent almost as long as I've been flying there. several places 'round here don't have cd even though a freq is listed. no idea why.
 
eman1200 said:
that's for ordering pizza, as far as I know.

cd has been non-existent almost as long as I've been flying there. several places 'round here don't have cd even though a freq is listed. no idea why.
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Interesting!
 
eman1200 said:
I had to read it twice too. He’s saying when u call ground initially you tell them your direction of flight, which happens after takeoff, obviously.
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I know what he was saying, but in a thread about communicating clearly, you would think that someone would be able to, you know, communicate clearly.
 
eman1200 said:
there is no CD at my class D so it's told to ground. NONE of which matters since that's not what the op asked about, he's asking about tower so not sure why anyone is talking about ground.
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Because he said tower and ground in the first post.
 
RyanB said:
Interesting!
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I mean from what I've seen, some places the cd and ground freq's are the same, with the same peeps working them, so why even have them? at a somewhat sleepy class d or even moderately busy one, I don't see the need to have 3 freq's, but maybe @Timbeck2 or others can chime in.


EdFred said:
Because he said tower and ground in the first post.
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yes, those two words were mentioned, but clearly he was saying "why don't we say the same phraseology with tower as we do with ground", so the question is about tower, not ground. as I know you are aware.
 
I just say holding short runway x at taxi way x. I don’t say ready for takeoff, otherwise why else would I be there. Now if it was something out off the ordinary I would say what I need. Kind of ,Ike when they call in specifically for full stop landing bs just saying landing.
 
eman1200 said:
I mean from what I've seen, some places the cd and ground freq's are the same, with the same peeps working them, so why even have them? at a somewhat sleepy class d or even moderately busy one, I don't see the need to have 3 freq's, but maybe @Timbeck2 or others can chime in.
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Yeah, that’s pretty common too. I dunno, I teach order of operations to students, even though it might be served by same controller.
 
Nah, gotta keep the controllers guessing. Yo tower, I’m ready to go…….Who is this?……. See ya
 
Pinecone said:
You should be telling ground your plans after takeoff and not need to repeat to tower.
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I generally only tell ground where I'm going if I'm asking for flight following... Guess I should also be telling them my departure direction when I'm just tootin over to the practice area? Til now I just the tower "departing NW" like Mooney Fan.
 
RyanB said:
Not to pick nits, but technically that should be told to Clearance Delivery if available.
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I hear they exist but, so far, I have never been to a Class D airport where Clearance Delivery was required for a VFR departure. At a Class C, sure, but not a Delta.
 
DCR said:
I generally only tell ground where I'm going if I'm asking for flight following... Guess I should also be telling them my departure direction when I'm just tootin over to the practice area? Til now I just the tower "departing NW" like Mooney Fan.
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That’s telling them where you are going.

It’s a relevance thing. When you ask for flight following, “where you are going” is a destination since your and their expectation is that ATC is going to hand you off to other facilities in multiple areas along the way until you get there.

When you don’t ask for flight following, “where you are going” is a direction because they only care what you are doing once you when in or near their airspace.
 
eman1200 said:
I mean from what I've seen, some places the cd and ground freq's are the same, with the same peeps working them, so why even have them? at a somewhat sleepy class d or even moderately busy one, I don't see the need to have 3 freq's, but maybe @Timbeck2 or others can chime in.
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I’ve always seen CD, Ground, Tower, and even ATIS as just a division of workload.

As you said, at a quiet D, CD and Ground are often the same person, but the separate dedicated CD frequency allows for the separation when and if needed.

That said, there are still towered airports without a dedicated CD frequency, just as there are still towered airports with no ATIS.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I hear they exist but, so far, I have never been to a Class D airport where Clearance Delivery was required for a VFR departure. At a Class C, sure, but not a Delta.
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Well, lots of times you don’t even have to go through CD at a Class C either for VFR departure. Sometimes they’ll tell you to contact CD first if trying to skip it, but not always. Point is, it’s a good habit to get into, especially for teaching students the proper order of operations.
 
RyanB said:
Well, lots of times you don’t even have to go through CD at a Class C either for VFR departure. Sometimes they’ll tell you to contact CD first if trying to skip it, but not always. Point is, it’s a good habit to get into, especially for teaching students the proper order of operations.
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I fly and teach order of operations based on what I've seen as being the most common situations, while also teach that exceptions exist, so one has to pay attention, especially to the ATIS. Like the opposite of what I said about Deltas, I have never been to a Charlie where a VFR departure did not call CD first for VFR departure instructions, let alone "lots of times." Yes, there are Deltas where you contact Ground rather than Tower when ready at the departure end of the runway. Yes, there are Charlies where you don't talk to Ground at all. Yes there are Deltas with no ATIS. We can probably do a survey and come up with a list of "it's different than what you are used to here." But those aren't common situations so, while I will mention them, it's only to explain that there are indeed exceptions to the generalities, so pay attention.
 
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RyanB said:
Well, lots of times you don’t even have to go through CD at a Class C either for VFR departure. Sometimes they’ll tell you to contact CD first if trying to skip it, but not always. Point is, it’s a good habit to get into, especially for teaching students the proper order of operations.
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Which Class Cs? (outside of covid when things were just weird)

Every C I have been to, it's always been CD ==> Ground ==> Tower ==> Departure
I can't recall a C I've been to that's been otherwise during normal hours.

Delta's are a crapshoot. Some have radar and no ATIS, some no ATIS but radar, some neither, some both. And the same with arriving and approach. Then you have a butthole tower in PA, that requires you (or used to) to contact approach before calling tower, even though there's nothing on the chart or ATIS saying to do so. All the D's I was exposed to in training were all TRSA, so it was the same as a C as far as I knew. Wasn't until I already had instrument rating and started flying to other parts of the country that I found out, not all D's have RADAR/ATIS.
 
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