Calling Tower for Departure

[midlifeflyer]

Appreciate that! Ok, since you said for "VFR", I have one follow up question: Does this observation apply to calling for flight following at a D too? Or would you call CD for FF at a D?

(at my local we call Ground for FF but like I said I've never been anywhere else so I don't know if it's the norm).

Great question. The D’s I have been to which arrange flight following have not been any different. Ground. But that doesn’t mean you won’t come across differences.

More than you asked …

Notice that I said “which arrange flight following.” Many do, but not all. I used to do a flight between two Deltas fairly often. One, underlying a Bravo shelf, did not arrange flight following. The other arranged flight following automatically without being asked. At a third, Ground generally (but not always) proactively asks whether you want flight following No sign, ATIS, Chart Supplement entry, etc to alert you to either variation from the norm. And the “norm” isn’t mentioned in the AIM. Here’s what the AIM says in 4-1-18.

Pilots of departing VFR aircraft are encouraged to request radar traffic information by notifying ground control, or where applicable, clearance delivery, on initial contact with their request and proposed direction of flight​

Notice: “by notifying ground control, or where applicable, clearance delivery.” The existence of variations is mentioned.

That’s really my point. Points, actually. So very much of this is uniform. ATC has a big rule book of standard procedures. What to say, how to say it, and when to say it. The AIM is extremely helpful But that doesn’t mean no variations exist. They do. It would be great if every variation would be have an alert associated with it, but some don’t. Maybe that’s the reason the AIM just tells us to contact the tower facility but doesn’t mention which position within the tower. CD or ground as appropriate. Division of labor can differ.

Second point? So what? I know pilots get all bent worrying about ATC as if they were a superior life form. They are just people. So, no big deal if you follow a norm and it’s not what they do there. That Delta with no flight following? I can’t count the times I heard a transient pilot ask for flight following when contacting Ground. So what? Ground would just tell them they didn’t do that and give them the frequency to call once outside the Delta. Another thing we can do is ask. At a Delta and want flight following, you might ask a local pilot or instructor. BTDT. But don’t be surprised if they look at you strange since they think their local procedure is universal.

 

[EdFred]

My point is that regs and AIM you do not tell you which Tower position to call. And I don't know of a towered facility anywhere that has an ATIS broadcast telling a pilot to call the Ground position for taxi instructions.

Special local procedures do typically get placed on the ATIS. But common procedures do not, even if they are not mentioned in the AIM or FARs.

Like what we are discussing in the thread. So far anyway, I have not been to a Class D which said "Contact ground before taxi" in an ATIS broadcast. Nor would I want it to. For a Charlie, I have not heard one say to contact CD or Ground. Those contacts are something we are taught to do because it's he way it's typically done.

Calling CD or Ground? I'm more interested in reality that myth busting. Hopefully, we're savvy enough not to call the Tower. But we're sitting n the ground, so it really doesn't matter. What's the worst case scenario if I call "the wrong" one? The position tells me to call the other and I've learned something for next time.

So, you can tell new pilots to just call the Tower and forget about Ground or CD. I'll continue to teach that certain procedures are common, but not all facilities are exactly the same. Pay attention to NOTAMs and ATIS for special procedures but understand that not every minor variation will me mentioned there and that it's no big deal to be wrong about those.

I have definitely heard GRR Class C mention contact CD on their ATIS broadcast on numerous, but not all, occasions. Might depend on the guy who is recording.

 

[Larry in TN]

My point is that regs and AIM you do not tell you which Tower position to call.

AIM 4-3-14.

I constantly refer pilots to the regulations (91.126 - 91.131) for questions about what they are required to do when operating in the vicinity of airports because there are relatively few regulatory requirements. Many pilots believe that they are required to do a lot of things which aren't in the regulations.

The AIM sections on ATC communications and airport operation are similarly important and they show that there is variations from airport to airport but give good advice on what to expect.

The key point is that pilots aren't expected to know the individual variations at different airports. They are expected to know what's in the regulations and AIM. When an ATC facility wants pilots to know of a more specific operating procedure then they need to make it known through the available channels.

If there isn't anything on the ATIS, NOTAMs, or chart supplement, you can call either ground or clearance delivery, whichever seems appropriate. If they want you on the other frequency they will tell you. It isn't the pilot's fault that they weren't clear.

It appears that the answer to the question I'm about to ask is "it depends", but, from your experience, would you say the common practice is to contact Ground first at a Delta and CD first at a Charlie?

My experience is that the bigger and busier the airport is, the higher the probability that they will want VFR departures to call clearance delivery first. When they do, it is usually indicated on the ATIS for them to do so.

mention contact CD on their ATIS broadcast on numerous, but not all, occasions. Might depend on the guy who is recording.

Many airports open and close the clearance delivery position throughout the day based on staffing and demand so which one to call will change. The current procedure should be indicated on the ATIS. If it is not, calling ground would be a good first choice.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have definitely heard GRR Class C mention contact CD on their ATIS broadcast on numerous, but not all, occasions. Might depend on the guy who is recording.

That's why I said there are always exceptions. Sometimes on ATIS sometimes not.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It isn't the pilot's fault that they weren't clear.

I don't recall anyone saying it was the pilot's fault.

 

[DCR]

I don't recall anyone saying it was the pilot's fault.

One could potentially interpret my inquiry about the specific freq's to call as me thinking that I'm "supposed to know" these things or even me thinking I would be "at fault" if I called the wrong line.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One could potentially interpret my inquiry about the specific freq's to call as me thinking that I'm "supposed to know" these things or even me thinking I would be "at fault" if I called the wrong line.

I think it’s fine to not know things you haven’t been exposed to. But I guess some might think that way.

 

[DCR]

I think it’s fine to not know things you haven’t been exposed to. But I guess some might think that way.

Absolutely agree, especially radio mistakes which in general are non-fatal.

 

[TruckerJoe28]

Smaller airports it probably doesn't matter. But I'd get in the habit of saying it like you're at a bigger airport so it is what you say when/if you are at a bigger airport.

The Runway or Runways in use the Tower obviously knows. But you could be departing holding short at any number of places. My old airport would almost always have people on either side of the runways and often you'd toss in someone that was not full length. So I was taught (or picked up): City Tower, Mooney 1234 number one Alpha. Or Alpha 2, etc.. at any number of Intersections, or either side of the runway. That would distinguish me from the guy over on the Delta side. Feel free to add Runway XX if you want, but it is redundant since they know the Runway/Runways in use.

Having said that there are exceptions. The Airport I'm at now has taxiways only on one side of the Airport, but they have parallel runways. So here I do not use the Taxiway, I'll use "number one 22 Right" or "22 Left" to confirm my location.

My thoughts exactly. Some airports are simple enough where saying your position sounds superfluous, but it’s a good habit for those complex airports with folks taking off from a number of different points on the runway. Don’t pass up an easy opportunity to break the chain of errors.

Podunk tower, N12345, RWY 12 at D, ready for departure. That’s my SOP

Ditto.

 

[M20K]

Does this observation apply to calling for flight following at a D too? Or would you call CD for FF at a D?

(at my local we call Ground for FF but like I said I've never been anywhere else so I don't know if it's the norm).

The airport I used to fly out of for years was under the NY Class B and they could not set up FF for you. You had to call NY Approach once you were airborne.

The airport I'm at now, the Class D is partially under a Class C and it is the norm to request FF from Ground. And like some other Class D Apts, Approach gives them a block of codes to issue so you get a code when you first call into Ground. Then while you're taxiing, they do the actual coordination with Approach for your FF.

 

[Lindberg]

Full stop means you are landing and shutting down.

That would make catching up on night or tail wheel currency a real pain.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Absolutely agree, especially radio mistakes which in general are non-fatal.

The real problem is that way too many pilots are so terrified of making an unimportant radio mistake, they avoid talking to ATC and never give themselves the chance to get comfortable with it, let along competent.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That would make catching up on night or tail wheel currency a real pain.

Especially in the summer if they're fuel injected. Might take a few days.

 

[Lindberg]

Why would you hope I'd reference them? You're the one who said they were there. But OK, if you insist, I'll reference the FAR and AIM sections that say whom to make the initial call up to while on the ground at a Class C primary airport.

Here you go:
" ...................................................."

Yep, that's it. The FAR doesn't even mention "ground" or "clearance delivery." "The closest is AIM 3-2-4-.c.4.d which says that at "A primary or satellite airport with an operating control tower. Two-way radio communications must be established and maintained with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in Class C airspace.."

I'd also give a nod to 91.103, and the Chart Supplement by implication.

 

[EdFred]

That would make catching up on night or tail wheel currency a real pain.

Just like PIC there are multiple contexts.
Would you say a stop and go is the same as a full stop as far as ATC is concerned?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just like PIC there are multiple contexts.
Would you say a stop and go is the same as a full stop as far as ATC is concerned?

No, but as far as ATC is concerned, if you say "full stop," they don't care if you (a) call for a taxi back when clear of the runway, (b) taxi to the ramp and then call for another takeoff, or (c) taxi to the ramp, shut down, and grab a beer.

So what's the context for your shutting down requirement?

 

[Lindberg]

Just like PIC there are multiple contexts.
Would you say a stop and go is the same as a full stop as far as ATC is concerned?

No, because a stop and go explicitly includes a takeoff.

 

[EdFred]

No, because a stop and go explicitly includes a takeoff.WH

Which would satisfy night and tail dragged currency. What's the problem?

 

[EdFred]

No, but as far as ATC is concerned, if you say "full stop," they don't care if you (a) call for a taxi back when clear of the runway, (b) taxi to the ramp and then call for another takeoff, or (c) taxi to the ramp, shut down, and grab a beer.

So what's the context for your shutting down requirement?

Around here full stop call to TWR/APp has always been understood that you are leaving the movement area and terminating your current squawk code. At least it was when I did the tower and TRACON tours. I mean, I suppose you could taxi around for 17 hours to pad your flight time, get a new squawk, and never actually shut down, but when we were doing the initial call ("full stop with ROMEO") that meant we were parking the plane and not taking back off anytime soon.

 

[M20K]

Which would satisfy night and tail dragged currency. What's the problem?

Just saw this last back and forth... Some are talking about ATC and if you tell them you're doing a "full stop" they would not expect you to reappear in a few minutes. So yes, a Stop and Go is great for your currency, but NOT what ATC is expecting. They would expect you to taxi into the ramp and shut down.

Since I did miss the beginning of this, I'm guessing it has to do with Flight Following. So if you're going into an Non Towered Apt to do some Stop & Gos, just tell ATC that and ask them if you should keep the same Code or terminate your Flight Following. Some Controllers may tell you to keep the Code and call when you're returning to your home Apt, others may tell you to terminate and get a new Code when you call for FF after your pattern work.

 

[DCR]

just tell ATC that and ask them if you should keep the same Code or terminate your Flight Following. Some Controllers may tell you to keep the Code and call when you're returning to your home Apt, others may tell you to terminate and get a new Code when you call for FF after your pattern work.

Can you provide any insight as to why some controllers want you to "keep the code" and others don't? Does it lighten their workload? Are the ones who want to terminate you afraid you will leave them hanging?

 

[M20K]

Can you provide any insight as to why some controllers want you to "keep the code" and others don't? Does it lighten their workload? Are the ones who want to terminate you afraid you will leave them hanging?

You'd have to ask a Controller. But my guess is it has a lot to do with how busy it is and if they just started their shift vs getting to the end of it. If it's slow and they're going to be on the scope for quite a while, no reason not to just leave you on the same code and you'd still be in the system when you call in again for Flight Following. If they're about to leave, it would just be confusing for the next Controller to figure out who you were when you just "checked in" to return to Kxxx.

Along the same lines... I've heard Controllers tell small commuters, freight runners, etc. to keep the same Code. Those flights will land and shut down, but it's a given that in a relatively short period they'll be departing again. So maybe it's one less step for the Controller to get them in the system. Or they figure it's one less thing for the haggard crew to deal with. Again, if there are any Controllers here, something they could answer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Around here full stop call to TWR/APp has always been understood that you are leaving the movement area and terminating your current squawk code. At least it was when I did the tower and TRACON tours. I mean, I suppose you could taxi around for 17 hours to pad your flight time, get a new squawk, and never actually shut down, but when we were doing the initial call ("full stop with ROMEO") that meant we were parking the plane and not taking back off anytime soon.

Leaving the movement area is still not shutting down the engine. , “This is how we do it” is not quite equal to “requirement” (which seems to be a recurring theme in this thread ).

More than once when doing a lesson to a D or C with a student or “uncomfortable” pilot, we’ve done a full stop, taxied to the ramp, talked for a few minutes, and then called for taxi/departure (including new squawk code) instructions so the pilot would have both the inbound and outbound experience. Done that both VFR and under IFR.

We don’t shut down for that.

 

[EdFred]

Leaving the movement area is still not shutting down the engine. , “This is how we do it” is not quite equal to “requirement” (which seems to be a recurring theme in this thread ).

More than once when doing a lesson to a D or C with a student or “uncomfortable” pilot, we’ve done a full stop, taxied to the ramp, talked for a few minutes, and then called for taxi/departure (including new squawk code) instructions so the pilot would have both the inbound and outbound experience. Done that both VFR and under IFR.

We don’t shut down for that.

I have never done that as a student or instructor. We parked, we shut down. Go in the FBO, or out the gate, or to the restaurant, or whatever. Outside of training, how many times have you performed your mentioned scenario?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have never done that as a student or instructor. We parked, we shut down. Go in the FBO, or out the gate, or to the restaurant, or whatever. Outside of training, how many times have you performed your mentioned scenario?

That depends on how broadly or narrowly you want to define “training.” outside of training (very broadly defined to include currency, proficiency, and testing equipment), I can’t recall ever landing at an airport just to turn around and depart immediately.

I’ll let you decide if it was “training” or not. Last time I did a turn-around-without-shutdown was to a towered airport that had a ramp area away from the main Signature ramp. I had never used the airport before but wanted to for future training. So, I flew there just so I could check out the area. Full stop, taxi to the south ramp, look around, call Ground.

Whether my many times doing a full stop-ramp-departure is “training” or not seems irrelevant. My one and only quibble was with your narrow definition

Full stop means you are landing and shutting down

I simply disagree that it “means” that.

 

[EdFred]

I simply disagree that it “means” that.

Fine, leaving the movement area - which in 99% of normal operations does include shutting down.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Fine, leaving the movement area -

I agree. Although I mentioned the possibility of simply telling Ground you want to taxi back after a "full stop" landing, the far better choice for that is to give your "full stop taxi back" request to Tower. After all, depending on the airport and conditions, they might not even bother switching you to Ground at all.

I think that's the overall message in this thread. There are variables and what my airport does may not be the universe of options.

 

[EdFred]

I agree. Although I mentioned the possibility of simply telling Ground you want to taxi back after a "full stop" landing, the far better choice for that is to give your "full stop taxi back" request to Tower. After all, depending on the airport and conditions, they might not even bother switching you to Ground at all.

I think that's the overall message in this thread. There are variables and what my airport does may not be the universe of options.

I don't think I have ever told that to Ground. I tell that to Approach when I call in with the ATIS.

"...taxi back and departure with [ATIS]."
"...[destination on field] with [ATIS]."

(and ones that wouldn't involve ground)
"...touch and go with [ATIS]."
"...practice approach(es) with [ATIS]."

That all must get passed along to the next frequencies because, I have never been asked at any of the Class C/D/B I have been to what my intentions are after initial call up. (Except what approach I want next, when I say I'm doing multiple approaches.)

 

[DCR]

That all must get passed along to the next frequencies

From my limited experience and what I've gathered from the interwebs, ATC is pretty good at communicating the relevant parts of your message to the next controller!

All this talk about "automation" and even "modernization" is kind of worrisome... Have you seen the garbage software engineers put out these days? They will probably have ads overlaid on their scopes, controllers will be trying to click the tiny X to get back... "N123 standby..." (Since I started the thread why not take it even further off topic haha!).

 

[Timbeck2]

Can you provide any insight as to why some controllers want you to "keep the code" and others don't? Does it lighten their workload? Are the ones who want to terminate you afraid you will leave them hanging?

I can. We can suspend your code if you plan on going back out in a short amount of time. It saves a few keystrokes on the computer. For example, to get your code, we type in call sign, ATC sector you are initially going to, type aircraft and a three letter destination. Then hit enter and we have a code. If you tell us you will be taking off again after you land, while you’re still airborne and visible on radar, we can hit the track/suspend button, click on your target and you will be suspended with a number beside your call sign on the radar screen. When you take back off, all we have to do is hit the initiate control button and the number your call sign was assigned and you pop back up. The important thing to remember is that if you know you’re going to take back off again, tell the controller while you’re still in radar contact. If you wait until you’re on the ground, it’s too late and we have to type everything back in to give you a new code.

 

[Larry in TN]

I agree. Although I mentioned the possibility of simply telling Ground you want to taxi back after a "full stop" landing, the far better choice for that is to give your "full stop taxi back" request to Tower.

Should work fine either way. Ground will send you back to the departure runway and put you in the departure sequence. Local is done with you when you clear the runway and go to Ground.