Buying an airplane; how much “Total Time” is too much?

I’ve been looking at some airplanes and there are some that are very attractive, with the avionics that I want, and some of them with really nice paint jobs. The caveat; total time! I find some “ok” ones built in 1977 with a bit less than 4,000 hours. But then I see some beautiful ones built in 1978 with over 10,000 hours!! To me, that many hours suggest it belonged to a flight school and I probably has lots of landings. Should those 10k+ even be considered. It doesn’t seem to change the price much! What’s your opinion?

 

I wouldn't buy it.
If you ever want to sell it you will be stuck with it unless you give it away.

 

It really depends a lot on what you want the airplane for. How are you going to use it? Does resale value matter to you (there are a lot of potential situations where it might not)? The total hours are really a fairly small part of the bigger picture.

 

Depends who owned it. Government owned planes are always meticulously taken care of.

 

Schools seem to buy 152, 172, arrows, and archers. Is it one of these?


Tom

 

I am a bit wary of buying airplanes with exceptionally low hours (for their age) as that means long periods of not being flown, and often neglect and not being maintained either. And I don't like buying airplanes with well above average hours as that almost always means training, which is hard service on the airframe. Hours of low time students banging that airframe doing touch & goes is quite different than private owner or charter hours at altitude flying cross-country.

The way I look at it almost everything on the airplane (engines, props, avionics, interiors, etc.) can be completely overhauled or replaced. But the one thing that can't is the airframe and it's history. Damage, repairs, fatigue cracks and such tend to be cumulative with airframe hours, and directly related to the type of usage.

 

My 8,000 hour 172 sold in less than 24 hours for full asking. The entire plane needs to be evaluated, hours are just one component.

 

Total time needs to be considered but there are other factors to look at. An airplane that flies pipeline or powerline support will accumulate lots of hours with relatively few cycles. A plane that spends its life doing 30 minute hops will have less time and considerably more wear. Hours alone would get my attention but if it was a plane I liked with a decent price tag I’d still want to check it out.

 

As mentioned earlier, it's not the total number of hours but the type of flying it did during those hours. Plus the degree at which it was maintained. I have seen high time gems and low time junk. It boils down to who owned it and how they took care of it that really makes a difference and what value you put on that.

 

Type of plane matters too. Strut winged Cessna? I wouldn't even bat an eye. Time-limited airframe like a Commander or Cirrus? Well now we've got some issues. As all things in life "it depends" but I certainly wouldn't discount it immediately because of TT.

 

Depends on the airplane. You need to read the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the aircraft models you are considering. The Data Sheet will list any life limited components like wing spars. In the case of the Grumman Tiger, the spars are life limited to 12,500 hours, so a 10,000 hr Grumman Tiger would be worth a LOT less than a 5,000 hr Grumman Tiger.

Some other types of aircraft have onerous, invasive and expensive high hour inspections that potentially threaten the value of the aircraft.

A high time aircraft can be a bargain if you know what you are doing, but most folks will just avoid the hassle and pay more for one with lower time.

 

It should effect the price. It's worth less.

But, planes that fly are better than planes that sit. That's ~240 hours a year which is probably a trainer (rough life) or in a partnership flying a lot (a good life). I'd be more afraid of a 42 year old plane with 2500 hours than 10K hours.

Still, the market decides a planes value, so pay less, expect some more airframe issues, and expect to sell it for less. Could be a good deal, or not.

My first plane was a 10K PA28-180 and it was a great deal, both for the plane itself and financially. YMMV.

 

Yep, I am in fact looking at Piper Arrow III’s

 

Yeah, I thought about that.

 

I never thought about that. I guess I haven’t come across such situation though.

 

Yeah, I figure 80 to 100 hours per year should be a good average for a private owner, do you agree?

EXACTLY!!

 

Well now you’re landing right on the numbers; I guess I should’ve mentioned that the airplanes I’m looking at are Piper Arrows. Most of them around 1977; some of them with 3-4K hours (which to me seems like a good avarage assuming it was a private owner), and others with 10-12k hours (which to me says “I used to belong to a flight school and not only do I have lots of hours but about 5-6 landings for each of those hours”).

So in short, understanding there are always some exceptions, should I stay away from Arrows with that many hours? And how many hours is acceptable for a 1977 model in your opinion?

 

No, Ya just throw away the old logs, pretty up the derelict, then start new logs with total time unknown.

I'm joking

 

Would I consider a plane with 10,000 hours? My answer is the same as Bob Dole's underwear answer, depends. Is it a plane with any airframe life limits? How did it get those 10,000 hours and just as importantly, what's the asking price?

That many hours would suggest professional flying/commercial operations in its history. Working for a flight school, being rode hard and put away wet is what everyone assumes but there are lots of other commercial ops that can rack up hours. And depending on the company and the ops it was used for, you could find that its been impeccably maintained. Of course even if it has been well maintained, its still got a boatload of hours and will continue to have a boatload of hours when resale times comes so unless the asking price is markedly lower than similar examples with fewer hours, I would probably pass.

 

10,000.00000000000000000000000 hrs.

 

That fact would change my answer of it depends to a most likely not.

 

Just bite the bullet and buy a new 172. Most here could swing it if they raided their 401K and kid’s college fund. Just kidding.
You’ll never be 100% safe buying ANY used aircraft as there are so many variables it’ll drive you crazy and you’ll suffer from buyer paralysis. At some point you’ll jump in and experience what every plane owner does- a large unexpected expense.
There’s a Cardinal owner on this website that just discovered a crack in his mid-time engine case. He’s looking at an expensive repair (15-18,000) at the least or a complete remanufactured engine. Totally unexpected. Make your best decision and always leave a sum aside for the unexpected.
One more thing. We had a Cessna 150 at our A&P school that accumulated 25,000 hours of flight time and most of it at a flight school. Just say’in that total time airframe isn’t always a roadblock if it’s been maintained and flown regularly.

 

Mine has over 11,000 on it

 

Didn’t a flight school (Daytona IIRC) had it’s wing separate from fuselage? Piper I believe, don’t remember the model.


Tom

 

Depends. How much does it cost? If it was $100, you'd have already purchased it. If it was $100,000, you'd be like "no way!"

Who used it? 10,000 hours at a flight school is not the same as 10,000 hours flying cross country.

 

About a year ago (4/4/18) and yes, it was an Arrow.

 

When I was looking at planes I had a friend that told me about buying his high time F33. It was an instrument trainer in Arizona for an airline.

I found a high time Cherokee 6 that spent most of it's time as a freight hauler between Florida and the islands. My mechanic said he wouldn't put his name in the logbook so I passed.

 

LMAO!!!

 

Yes, precisely! And that WAS a Piper Arrow (exactly the model I’m looking at). God only know how many landings that thing had and the kind of neglect (if any). But I would prefer an airplane that doesn’t ever make the news. It’s just so complicated to do this! Seems like one has to be an experienced owner before becoming a first-time owner... not to mention the wide differences of opinions of many pilots (most of which come from a good heart and a good place, with lots of common sense).

 

Right! That’s be an important question to ask assuming they won’t give me a Bull$hi+ answer, of course!

 

Government planes. If it was a government plane, you’re in good shape. They replace everything at some point. Mine even has a lot of what I call “end of the budget year” upgrades and even some secret upgrades. That said, I’m not sure what a government agency would use an Arrow for.

 

Keep in mind that there is a pending airworthiness directive for the wing spar on the PA28. That starts kicking in around 5000 hours if I remember correctly reading the proposed rule making.

I purchased a sub-3,000 hour PA32 and I’m glad I did. It was never used for flight instruction, therefore in general not quite as beat up

As a broad brush generalization, aircraft with over 10,000 hours were probably used for flight instruction at some point in their lives. It’s up to you whether you want to purchase something like that or not.

 

LOL, right! At our airport, there’s a hangar that belongs to the SBI (kind of like the FBI at a State level) who owns a Pilatus and a 182RG

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...04/calls-grow-to-pare-down-piper-wing-spar-ad

 

They make Pipers out of the leftover parts from the Cessna factory

 

My 182RG is an old FBI plane. Amazing airplanes. Cruise at 150+ true. Land short. You should find one of those.

 

One advantage of buying a flight school airplane is the required 100 hour inspections, regular oil changes and lubrication that was performed. If it was a good deal I would buy one (with exceptions) and not worry a lick. A good pre-buy inspection that includes a cylinder leak-down check and oil analysis will be well worth the money before plunking down your hard earned cash. Find a mechanic familiar with the type and is aware of the usual areas where corrosion may form. This is an very important part of the pre-buy.
It's true that buying an aircraft can be a nerve racking experience, but thousands of pilots have done it and would not go back to renting under any condition.

 

Thanks for sharing!!

 

Meyers 200.

http://www.meyersaircraft.com/

Zero ADs. Ever.

 

I’ve never heard of this airplane but now I think I may have mistaken one for a Navion.