Boeing 737s Grounded

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Clip4, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, some of the birds retrofitted with the new interiors had problems, but personally I'd be more worried about battle-axe DFW based flight attendants!
     
  2. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    There is no pitch instability. There are lighter control forces, as compared to the 737 NG, in high angle of attacks (near stall) and steep turns. MCAS adds a nose-down bias to produce a similar "control feel" in those situations.
     
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  3. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    This is a true story-- I have only once in my life flown commercial with a young, attractive flight attendant. That one time it happened, I had gotten seated back in steerage class, and I looked forward to watch the other passengers board. I noticed a tall, blonde, well fit attendant at the front of the plane. She stood out from the others. So, naturally, I kept an eye on her as she went about her job. As she got closer to me such that I could clearly make out her facial features, turns out that she was my cousin! So wrong. I still feel dirty. And cheated.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 2:49 PM
  4. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Line Up and Wait

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    MCAS, etc. are not a band-aid. With new modern design technology, efficiency goals, fly by wire etc., computer assisted systems are needed. They make the plane respond correctly which otherwise would/might not. You can't hand fly the B12 without computer assistance.
     
  5. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    MCAS is not in the same category of those other systems, which were designed together with the aircraft, not bolted on afterward to fix an unexpected problem.
     
  6. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Lockheed L-188 Electra.

    "Three aircraft were lost in fatal accidents between February 1959 and March 1960. After the third crash, the FAA limited the Electra's speed until the cause could be determined." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-188_Electra

    Not grounded, just had limitations. We've made the system so safe today, and there are so many people that want absolute safety at all costs, that grounding was the only alternative left.
     
  7. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    By the way, there are derivatives of the Electra in use today, including 2 NOAA hurricane hunters.

    Orion.jpg
     
  8. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Having not even seen the inside of a Max, isn’t the gear “handle” a different design? More like a switch? That would slow down something like that from happening, I would think.
     
  9. Scrabo

    Scrabo Pattern Altitude

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    Not a good PR week for them...

    CNN - "In a blistering attack on Boeing, the Air Force's top acquisition official said the company has a "severe situation" with flawed inspections of its new KC-46 air refueling tanker aircraft, after trash and industrial tools were found in some planes after they were delivered to the Air Force.

    Dr. Will Roper, assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, technology and logistics, made clear his concerns after visiting Boeing's Everett Washington plant where the plane is assembled. "I left concerned, and I also left thinking Boeing understands they have a severe situation that's going to take top level engagement from their company," Roper said. After discovering the problem, the Air Force stopped accepting the new tankers from Boeing on February 20."

    Full story - https://www.wral.com/us-air-force-s...ter-trash-found-on-refueling-planes/18259881/
     
  10. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, it’s a different design, and also in a slightly lower position on the panel - it’s pretty obvious as you reach for it that it’s different than your standard 737 gear handle. But we joke about it anyway - none of us want to be the first!
     
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  11. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Let the conspiracy theories begin....

    IMG_1489.jpg
     
  12. tiger

    tiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I suspect you're orders of magnitude safer on the local air carrier than any other method of traveling long distances, just as you are in the US!

    I would guess it probably is, but the operation of the MCAS sound much more insidious - a slow change than occurs intermittently. Hard to diagnose (especially if you don't know it exists!) compared to a stab trim runaway to the stops.
     
  13. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    According to reports from the Lion Air crash, the MCAS worked as advertised except it received erroneous data from a mis-installed/inop AoA gauge. And the 4 previous flights were flown with the same issue with no accident. As one retired 737 pilot is quoted: "I guess aviate, navigate, and communicate is no longer applicable if you allow a computer to fly the aircraft." Whether the procedure was for a runaway stabilizer to the stops or not, it was the applicable procedure for the fault. And these are not my words but a number of current 737 pilots opining across the net.
     
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  14. tiger

    tiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, I agree. But to perform the runaway stab procedure, you have to diagnose the runaway stab. A slow stab movement that keeps stopping presumably makes that a little harder, especially if you aren't even made aware that there's a system specifically designed to move the stab very slowly and keep stopping...

    ETA: Not that there's any current evidence the MCAS was involved in the Ethiopian crash. Just an observation on the system.
     
  15. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    Is the company that made the AoA gauge Collins Aerospace (formerly Rockwell Collins)? They're seldom mentioned, as all the news seems to focus on Boeing.
     
  16. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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  17. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    Seems like it would be hard not to notice any unwanted stab trim activity on a 737 due to those two huge wheels with the white stripes turning on the pedestal, even if it were slow and intermittent. You’d think that the first time you had to ask yourself “why’s it doing that?” You’d hit those cut-off switches and figure it out but there have been concerns in several recent mishaps that the first thing a pilot does nowadays is check his FMC programming.
     
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  18. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Except it isn’t uncommon for the auto trim to activate on a semi regular basis. Power changes, Flight Attendants walking in and down the aisle, speed changes all cause the auto trom to work, so it might not be all that obvious right away that something is amiss.
     
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  19. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    to bad they couldn't turn the auto trom off.....
     
  20. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I get it that auto trim is exactly that, it automatically trims based on the things Greg talks about above. But when the airplane no longer does what you want, isn't there a big red button you can push that disables all automation and lets you hand fly the airplane?

    I know our planes are dirt simple dinosaurs in comparison, but the Mooney has a big red button on top of the right yoke horn. Push it, and FD/AP/Power trim are all disconnected.
     
  21. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Given that what seems like well over half the private pilots on the internet now know what MCAS is and what it does, what are the odds there is anyone operating a 737 out there that isn't now aware of it?
     
  22. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    Auto trim activating to keep the aircraft trimmed is one thing but if it's altering your flight path and you continually have to pull back on the yoke because of it that would seem to qualify as "obvious" that something is amiss and it's time to dump the automated part.
     
  23. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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  24. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

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    I've had "autotrim" run wildly away once in a Bonanza in IMC. Looked down to see the trim wheels spinning at full tilt. In that case, it wasn't an equipment problem, as much as the operator (me) was stupid enough to get caught up in a microburst.
     
  25. TimScott2080

    TimScott2080 Filing Flight Plan

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    I found this sort of frightening. This is one of the complaints about the 737MAX from a pilot.

    "In addition, there are two selector knobs that are under-explained (i.e., not explained) in the manual, and we were uncertain what their purpose was. One is under the Fuel Flow switch and the other under the MFD/ENG TFR display switch. These knobs don't seem to work in flight. The First Officer offered to hit the SEL function in flight, to test it out, but I thought something irreversible or undesirable might happen (not knowing what we were actually selecting), so we did not try it out in flight. The mechanic later explained SEL on the First Officer side was used on the ground by maintenance to toggle between the maintenance functions. I forgot to ask what my side did, and still don't know."

    I find it frightening a pilot would even think about hitting the SEL function in flight if he/she has no idea what it would do? I mean, piloting an aircraft with hundreds of souls onboard isn't a time to try out some science experiments.
     
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  26. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Line Up and Wait

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    From an AOPA article....
    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ail&utm_content=tts&utm_campaign=190314epilot

    An airline pilot with 737 MAX-8 flying experience who wished to remain anonymous explained to AOPA that the new augmentation system affected the stabilizer trim but noted several ways to defeat it. “It doesn’t move any primary controls,” and MCAS doesn’t function when the autopilot is active. “When the autopilot is on, it isn’t even a player,” the pilot added. Switching off the electric trim overrides the system and cut-off switches are located on the center pedestal “near the red fire cutoffs between the pilot and first officer and both of them” can access the switches. The pilot also noted MCAS doesn’t work if flaps are extended in the aircraft’s normal takeoff configuration.

    A system malfunction “should appear to a pilot the same way a runaway trim wheel appears,” the pilot continued. “The result is that we have a runaway trim checklist—and a procedure” to work around it. You turn off the electric trim and go to a manual reversion. It’s something we train for. It is true that Boeing didn’t tell anyone about it [MCAS]—so that is problematic.”
     
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  27. gdwindowpane

    gdwindowpane Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    I heard "jack screw" for the first time this morning on Good Morning America. First time I've heard it relating to the Max 8's.
     
  28. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Anything with stabilizer trim is likely to have a jackscrew. That would cover most, if not all, transport jets.
     
  29. Archer Jack

    Archer Jack Filing Flight Plan

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    I just had a thought. Yes I know I'm just an old Piper driver but sometimes I still have one. Given that the European Union was among the first to ground the Max and the testing of the black box is in Paris, could a major competitor of Boeing headquartered somewhere in Europe be laughing all the way to the bank? Hmmmm? ;)
     
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  30. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    The engine mounts were modified to prevent the "whirl mode" that tore the wings off.
     
  31. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    One’s closer relatives often appear attractive to people out of context. Was it a first or second cousin though
     
  32. Polarisguy

    Polarisguy Pre-Flight

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    But we are dealing with 3rd world pilots here


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  33. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    [QUOTE="wsuffa, post: 2695367] We've made the system so safe today, and there are so many people that want absolute safety at all costs, that grounding was the only alternative left.[/QUOTE]

    That is a bit dramatic. Nobody wants safety at all cost. That would be not flying at all, staying home and wrapping yourself in bubble wrap. That’s not the goal.

    The truth here is that Boeing and others are pushing hard into computers flyings airplanes and there is something up with the Max, the number and nature of the ASRS reports reflect that. They have not achieved the standard of never getting it wrong, which means the airplanes should not fly for a while until the system is well understood.
     
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  34. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I thought two of the ASRS reports were from the same flight. One from the pilot, one from the copilot. Also, I don't think you can make a conclusion about the 737 Max unless you do a comparison of the number and nature of ASRS reports involving the 737 Max versus similar types. I wouldn't be surprised if similar ASRS reports are filed every day by pilots flying a wide variety of airline hardware.
     
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  35. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    First cousins are allowed to marry in some states.
     
  36. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    This explains a lot.
     
  37. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Is "intoxication" one of those states?
     
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  38. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I had not realized it was legal in so many. Genetically first cousins are on the edge of more related than the average other person. Arizona has an interesting law - you can marry your first cousin but only if 65 or older or one party infertile.
     
  39. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You should read up on Genetic Sexual Attraction. It’s somewhat interesting.
     
  40. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    reminds me of the Alabama divorce joke that ends with "is she still my sister?"
     
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