At some point a parent has just got to let them fail I guess

[CC268]

Some serious jerks on here. The pilots barely get paid a wage worth doing the job, you can’t blame an FA for not being able to make a living at it, they’re paid far worse.

The joys of cheap airline tickets.

If I had a dollar for everytime some old fella complained about millennials...I think every generation looks down upon the next though.

 

[denverpilot]

If I had a dollar for everytime some old fella complained about millennials...I think every generation looks down upon the next though.

It’s not even about millennials. That job pays poorly for the first few years no matter your age.

You pretty much have to have savings you can burn through to get started as a single person, or someone else paying the bills.

And even though Dallas isn’t that bad, for most airlines the junior bases are often their most expensive cost of living bases in overcrowded cities, too.

Many only make it through that stage staying in crashpads with lots of roommates.

 

[CC268]

It’s not even about millennials. That job pays poorly for the first few years no matter your age.

You pretty much have to have savings you can burn through to get started as a single person, or someone else paying the bills.

And even though Dallas isn’t that bad, for most airlines the junior bases are often their most expensive cost of living bases in overcrowded cities, too.

Many only make it through that stage staying in crashpads with lots of roommates.

Oh yea I don’t disagree. I wouldn’t do that job either.

 

[mtuomi]

It’s not even about millennials. That job pays poorly for the first few years no matter your age.

You pretty much have to have savings you can burn through to get started as a single person, or someone else paying the bills.

And even though Dallas isn’t that bad, for most airlines the junior bases are often their most expensive cost of living bases in overcrowded cities, too.

Many only make it through that stage staying in crashpads with lots of roommates.

For pilots, it's a career you can live off from day one pretty easily now. I just hit my first 12 months employed as a full time pilot. First 4 months I was on 34k/year, next 6 months about 50k/year, and now I'm pretty close to 90k/year. So on average my first 12 months I've been on a 52k/year salary. Anyone with any sort of fiscal responsibility can live very comfortable with that money.

 

[CC268]

For pilots, it's a career you can live off from day one pretty easily now. I just hit my first 12 months employed as a full time pilot. First 4 months I was on 34k/year, next 6 months about 50k/year, and now I'm pretty close to 90k/year. So on average my first 12 months I've been on a 52k/year salary. Anyone with any sort of fiscal responsibility can live very comfortable with that money.

Dude your my inspiration no joke. I figure with my wife making 50k a year we can live comfortably even if I was only making 20k a year.

 

[Ted]

I doubt very seriously she could do that without paying her dues with the regionals.

Especially after quitting so soon in. She could get hired back at another regional if she wanted to, but getting in at a major like that? Not happening.

 

[CC268]

FWIW I know a girl from high school who got on directly with Southwest. No idea how that works

 

[weilke]

FWIW I know a girl from high school who got on directly with Southwest. No idea how that works

Looks good in hot-pants ?

 

[CC268]

Looks good in hot-pants ?

She was a looker for sure

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The very first day as I said earlier she worked for 16 hours and only got paid for 3 - the time the aircraft is in the air. I'm not disappointed in her, she gave it the old college try but it just wasn't financially feasible to be a flight attendant and continue to pay bills.

You mean it wasn’t feasible to be a flight attendant at Mesa. She picked one of the worst to work for honestly.

 

[jordane93]

I just don't know how new flight attendants can do it unless they are already in a decent financial state somehow.

Most of the FAs at my company have second and sometimes third job if they are single. The married ones can make it out okay but the ones that are single usually have a second job. It’s a tough job and they are treated like garbage.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

How do you figure that? That individual would have been the first one hired in the next class.

The sad thing is there is someone who was n+1 on that hiring list and would have made it work who is now denied the opportunity to get a start in that career.

 

[kayoh190]

For pilots, it's a career you can live off from day one pretty easily now.

To be fair, you were able to skip instructing, right? I'd say where you work is usually step two (and sometimes the last step - you have a pretty cool gig!) in the progression.

But to your point, I agree. Some on PoA love to use their current income as justification as to why they don't fly professionally, but they're coming from the point of view of someone established with a family and other responsibilities. For the young kids, it's fine. I made $24K my first year of doing this as a living (instructing), and made it work. Yes I had roommates. Yes I ate like garbage (two tacos at Jack In The Box for 99 cents!!!), but it was actually some of the most fun I had. Then I moved on to 340s, 421s - eventually popping my turbine cherry in the Cheyenne II making $50K/yr - and thought I had died and gone to heaven.

 

[weilke]

How do you figure that? That individual would have been the first one hired in the next class.

Whenever that may be. But yeah, not blocked from getting in, just blocked from getting in under that class.

 

[kayoh190]

Whenever that may be. But yeah, not blocked from getting in, just blocked from getting in under that class.

C'mon man, these aren't astronaut jobs we're talking about here. A regional FA is one step removed from working retail at the mall - I don't think anyone is getting butt-hurt over this sort of thing.

 

[CC268]

Listen fellas. My first job was making ice cream cones, cleaning greasy burger trays, and cleaning urinals and toilets at Dairy Queen. Look at me now - flying one of the most prestigious aircraft out there - the Cherokee 140. “Started from the bottom now we here”

 

[Ted]

From experience, and now years of proving the theory correct ...

After they are 18, but absolutely after college and first job, do not criticize. Do not give advice. Do not utter what you think is oblique reproach, no matter how mild you think you are being. Give advice only when asked, but consider carefully before speaking that what you are about to say may be construed as criticism. Praise the good stuff.

They are adults and actually prefer to make their own mistakes. Do not bail them out of the consequences of their choices. If true misfortune strikes, be there. Consider them dear friends, not someone yo are still raising. That is done.

This has been our key to having great relationships with the offspring, now 34 and 36.

The one thing I'd change in your statement would be "They are adults and actually prefer to make their own decisions" rather than mistakes. Nobody's 100% right all the time. I can think of several times when I was given advice by my mom or other adult figures that would've been a really bad move had I done it. They didn't see it, but I did, and I was proven to be right in the long run. Sure, I made mistakes and learned from them along the way (that's important) but I also learned that it was a mistake to let someone else make decisions for me.

Now you do have some people who just make bad decisions, but that's a fact of life.

 

[Ted]

To be fair, you were able to skip instructing, right? I'd say where you work is usually step two (and sometimes the last step - you have a pretty cool gig!) in the progression.

But to your point, I agree. Some on PoA love to use their current income as justification as to why they don't fly professionally, but they're coming from the point of view of someone established with a family and other responsibilities. For the young kids, it's fine. I made $24K my first year of doing this as a living (instructing), and made it work. Yes I had roommates. Yes I ate like garbage (two tacos at Jack In The Box for 99 cents!!!), but it was actually some of the most fun I had. Then I moved on to 340s, 421s - eventually popping my turbine cherry in the Cheyenne II making $50K/yr - and thought I had died and gone to heaven.

This is a very fair point. If you get into it first thing it's not so bad when you have no responsibilities. By the time I was in a spot where I thought to do it, I had too many commitments to do the "paying my dues" portion without a significant impact in my lifestyle. For me to do it now would be really tough.

Of course, 10 years ago things were different in the industry that made it a much harder sell, too...

 

[DFH65]

Feel your pain.
Imagine your daughter gets free tuition because you work at a college is in her Jr. year.
Decides to take a semester off and move out to CO with elderly grandparents with
Free room, board and use of a car.

Then decides she wants to "make adult decisions"

Moves out rents a room in a house with five other people I haven't seen the lease but assume she is on the hook if someone(s) bails.
Buys a car (Got her cousin who is my age and local to help pay so bought more than she could really afford)
Has a part time (30 hourish) minimum wage job.

Hard to explain to a 21 year old that adult decisions aren't just getting what you want. I am hoping she comes to her senses and comes back to finish school. Then she can be as adult as she wants.

 

[RyanB]

Especially after quitting so soon in. She could get hired back at another regional if she wanted to, but getting in at a major like that? Not happening.

That's what I was unaware of. I didn't know that FA's are seniority based too, in the sense that they have to 'pay their dues' with a regional before stepping up to a major. I always figured an FA job was just apply with whomever and you're good to go. Sounds a lot more cut-throat than I imagined it being.

 

[Bill]

Besides, I don't think she could handle boot camp/basic training although I'd love to be a fly on the wall during her first week.

"...pull that straw out of your pocket, indoc, and suck it up!..."

 

[kayoh190]

in the sense that they have to 'pay their dues' with a regional before stepping up to a major. I always figured an FA job was just apply with whomever and you're good to go. Sounds a lot more cut-throat than I imagined it being.

I don't think that's exactly true. I fly with a lot of young FAs that are new to the job. So they're getting hired straight into a major without having any FA experience beforehand. Now as far as the competitiveness, pay, and so on - I'm not sure how that all works. From chatting with them, FAs at a major still aren't really getting paid squat when they start out, but I'm guessing it ramps up quite a bit more quickly than on the regional side.

 

[Timbeck2]

Feel your pain.
Imagine your daughter gets free tuition because you work at a college is in her Jr. year.
Decides to take a semester off and move out to CO with elderly grandparents with
Free room, board and use of a car.

Then decides she wants to "make adult decisions"

Moves out rents a room in a house with five other people I haven't seen the lease but assume she is on the hook if someone(s) bails.
Buys a car (Got her cousin who is my age and local to help pay so bought more than she could really afford)
Has a part time (30 hourish) minimum wage job.

Hard to explain to a 21 year old that adult decisions aren't just getting what you want. I am hoping she comes to her senses and comes back to finish school. Then she can be as adult as she wants.

Thanks for that.

 

[weilke]

C'mon man, these aren't astronaut jobs we're talking about here. A regional FA is one step removed from working retail at the mall - I don't think anyone is getting butt-hurt over this sort of thing.

That's why they only have 10 applicants for every slot that opens.
It must work for some. If you stick with it long enough you can work a few days per month with long stretches off in between.

Couple of weeks ago I ended up in the cheap seats on a A321. Got to chat with the FA in the back jumpseat. He was my age, had a family and I figured he must have been decades in the job. Turns out it was his 6 month mark as FA. He had retired after 20 years in middle management with a non-union airline and hired on as FA for family healthcare and the travel benefits.

 

[Timbeck2]

So using your logic, the guy was retired and didn't need the job, therefore stealing it from someone who did?

 

[EdFred]

So using your logic, the guy was retired and didn't need the job, therefore stealing it from someone who did?

Is it really stealing if the person that "needs" the job quits after a week?

When I retire in (hopefully less than) 10 years, I will probably take on a job that I don't need financially, but need to have to keep from going crazy.

 

[Kritchlow]

I don't think that's exactly true. I fly with a lot of young FAs that are new to the job. So they're getting hired straight into a major without having any FA experience beforehand. Now as far as the competitiveness, pay, and so on - I'm not sure how that all works. From chatting with them, FAs at a major still aren't really getting paid squat when they start out, but I'm guessing it ramps up quite a bit more quickly than on the regional side.

This has been my experience as well.

 

[Timbeck2]

Is it really stealing if the person that "needs" the job quits after a week?

When I retire in (hopefully less than) 10 years, I will probably take on a job that I don't need financially, but need to have to keep from going crazy.

Oh I'll retire for the second time in about 3 years but I'm getting hours for my A&P license right not. I can't sit around and I love wrenching on airplanes too much.

 

[Kritchlow]

As far as pay goes, for us two conditions must be met in order for the pay clock (pilots and FA’s).
1) main cabin door closed
2) parking brake released

 

[Timbeck2]

Semi-serious question: is that clock on the honor system or does the airlines have some sort of hobbs meter set up for one and/or the other?

 

[Kritchlow]

Semi-serious question: is that clock on the honor system or does the airlines have some sort of hobbs meter set up for one and/or the other?

Automatically transmitted via ACARS when the two above conditions are met.

 

[Timbeck2]

Wow. Thanks.

 

[denverpilot]

But to your point, I agree. Some on PoA love to use their current income as justification as to why they don't fly professionally, but they're coming from the point of view of someone established with a family and other responsibilities. For the young kids, it's fine. I made $24K my first year of doing this as a living (instructing), and made it work. Yes I had roommates. Yes I ate like garbage (two tacos at Jack In The Box for 99 cents!!!), but it was actually some of the most fun I had. Then I moved on to 340s, 421s - eventually popping my turbine cherry in the Cheyenne II making $50K/yr - and thought I had died and gone to heaven.

What year was that? I ask because up until VERY recently that was still the going wage and the industry hadn’t made any changes in wages for a decade, as inflation did its usual thing. Most places in that gap between 250 and 1500 hours are solidly stuck at somewhere around $30K for their true starting salary.

“Making it work” with around $30K a year was a completely different thing in the 90s than almost thirty years later with normal inflation rates.

Heck I did that, outside of aviation, too, and even managed a little fun money for flying for a while until I racked up personal debts. No problem. That was when a “non-$0.99 taco” fast food meal was about $5. Not $12. And gas was under $2. (Just using fast food as an example of inflation, yes there’s always been ways to eat cheaper than fast food... it’s just to show the price changes since then.)

And let’s be honest, the industry hasn’t truly changed their pay scale. They changed their hiring bonuses to cover up the fatal flaw in their first year numbers. Those bonuses will be the first thing to disappear at any place that loses a major contract and furloughs start.

There’s a lot of job risk still at the low end but not anywhere near as much risk as the insanity levels of the 90s. So that part got marginally better.

Places can still be severely mismanaged, and a handful definitely are.

I can’t think of how many years it’s been since we didn’t hire junior people into IT at or above $50K with real bennies and 401Ks and matching and such. The place I’m at now competes with other IT gigs only because they pay even better than that because their bennies package is weak.

When I was managing our team I made it clear I thought we’d lose our most junior guy if we didn’t pay him well enough to purchase a home in the Denver market, which was already setting price records back then and has done nothing but go up 8% a year for over a decade.

They paid him, he bought his townhouse, and as far as I can tell, is a pretty happy camper.

I don’t think it’s JUST people’s “current salary” they’re looking over when they think about it.

It’s the lack of benefits, the entry level salary not truly being what they say it is (the hiring bonus silliness), a couple decades not keeping up with inflation, and a lot of other things like real job and life risk that some of these companies don’t exist in a few years.

Hiring may be great right now, but that doesn’t mean a significant jump in fuel costs due to some unforeseen geo-political horsepucky doesn’t kill a few more regionals like those events always have.

There’s a reason why the slang in business for a poorly managed company is called a “fly by night company”.

That should be somewhat embarrassing for the aviation industry but aviation wears that one more with pride than shame. The game is moving self loading and non self loading cargo at the bottom dollar.

You also have to love the travel life and moving. When we do that to someone in IT, that’s a six figure starting salary on day one and if they’re on the road for more than three days we even pay their laundry costs. But then again, we don’t make them wear polyester suits, either. We actually wouldn’t want them to look that poor in front of customers.

 

[bflynn]

Decent bus system in Dallas and trains go into Love, or at least into a station where a bus takes you to Love.

We know - the pay sucks, the hours are long. I think it's possible that they do some weeding out at this point...who wants to do this and who, when faced with reality, buckles. Reminds me a bit of my first job - I was on salary, but it was not quite $20/day. Being poor makes you appreciate having money.

 

[denverpilot]

As far as pay goes, for us two conditions must be met in order for the pay clock (pilots and FA’s).
1) main cabin door closed
2) parking brake released

Semi-serious question: is that clock on the honor system or does the airlines have some sort of hobbs meter set up for one and/or the other?

Automatically transmitted via ACARS when the two above conditions are met.

On older aircraft there were some tricks to that and some flight crews helped us poor schmucks out with them, down on the ramp if we begged nicely.

We’d pull the beltloaders away, push them back a few feet, they’d do some magic breaker pulling after the clock started for their flight time, put at least one belt loader back, and then they’d let us keep filling the baggage holds on their dime instead of ours.

I doubt the new airplanes are fooled anymore by removing power from certain systems. But we loved those crews when they would help us out and keep us from taking a hit with either fines or whatever. They took care of us, we took care of them.

I still remember the first day I learned about that on the ramp. I told my ramp lead there was no way we would turn an airplane in the time we had short handed. He said, “I ain’t saying we’re going to cheat, but on this one, we’re going to cheat. 20 minutes later or so he told me to go ask the cockpit if they could do us a favor of a push and stop. Cockpit said they’d happily do it. “We’ll make it up in the air. All these folks would like their bags to arrive when they do.”

An excellent example of flipping automation the bird and taking care of the customers.

 

[Kritchlow]

On older aircraft there were some tricks to that and some flight crews helped us poor schmucks out with them, down on the ramp if we begged nicely.

We’d pull the beltloaders away, push them back a few feet, they’d do some magic breaker pulling after the clock started for their flight time, put at least one belt loader back, and then they’d let us keep filling the baggage holds on their dime instead of ours.

I doubt the new airplanes are fooled anymore by removing power from certain systems. But we loved those crews when they would help us out and keep us from taking a hit with either fines or whatever. They took care of us, we took care of them.

I still remember the first day I learned about that on the ramp. I told my ramp lead there was no way we would turn an airplane in the time we had short handed. He said, “I ain’t saying we’re going to cheat, but on this one, we’re going to cheat. 20 minutes later or so he told me to go ask the cockpit if they could do us a favor of a push and stop. Cockpit said they’d happily do it. “We’ll make it up in the air. All these folks would like their bags to arrive when they do.”

An excellent example of flipping automation the bird and taking care of the customers.

There are still some tricks that can be done, although I don’t do it. The aircraft clock can actually be set back just before dropping the brake, thus transmitting an incorrect time. Also one can drop the brake (stepping on the brakes first), then reset it. I’m just not personally going to do that for an extra five minutes of pay. To be honest many do that not for the pay, but rather to show an on time departure. The way I see it is I’m not going to fudge things because the company can’t get the bags loaded in time.

 

[Kritchlow]

It should be mentioned that at most if not all airlines, the pay clock is the greater of the scheduled block time or the actual block time. Many airlines over block in order to guarantee an on time arrival.

 

[kayoh190]

What year was that? I ask because up until VERY recently that was still the going wage and the industry hadn’t made any changes in wages for a decade, as inflation did its usual thing. Most places in that gap between 250 and 1500 hours are solidly stuck at somewhere around $30K for their true starting salary.

It was roughly 2003, and in Austin (before the cost of living there really took off). To your point, $24K (or even $50K) would be a lot harder now than it was then.

But flying has always been like this - the pay is depressed because the job (right or wrong) attracts a certain type of person that can't imagine doing anything else. Not everyone is like me - I get that. For a lot of people the idea of flying professionally comes down to a numbers thing, and of course a job like IT or engineering will win out every time. But for some of us, that's not really the point. Jordan made it work. mtuomi made it work. I'm about as sharp as a basketball and somehow I made it work. So it *can* be done.

You're right - it's a lifestyle, and you're either okay with it or you're not. I'd argue that anyone sitting down and attempting to make an objective comparison between being a professional pilot or going into IT/engineering should stick to the tech side. And like you said, this job is at best cyclical and at worst downright treacherous. There's no way to predict what kind of career you're going to have. But life's short. My attitude is, if all you wanna do is fly - go fly. Do it with your eyes open, but come on out - the water is fine.

 

[denverpilot]

There are still some tricks that can be done, although I don’t do it. The aircraft clock can actually be set back just before dropping the brake, thus transmitting an incorrect time. Also one can drop the brake (stepping on the brakes first), then reset it. I’m just not personally going to do that for an extra five minutes of pay. To be honest many do that not for the pay, but rather to show an on time departure. The way I see it is I’m not going to fudge things because the company can’t get the bags loaded in time.

We were bankrupt back then and media and others were much bigger on “on time performance” before the world stopped caring about never ending delays.

Most folks gamed the on time system back then with bankruptcy and the much more real chance of job loss and a decade of furloughs than anyone would even give a second thought to, today.

 

[weilke]

So using your logic, the guy was retired and didn't need the job, therefore stealing it from someone who did?

No, he is working the job, and he is probably going to do so until medicare kicks in and/or his kids are out of the house.

Your daughter bumped the next one down the list out of the class and is not working as agreed when she signed the contract.

It's different.