At some point a parent has just got to let them fail I guess

I'm sure that if the school told the new hires that they'd be losing more money than they make for the first two years then a lot of people wouldn't take the job and your straw man would have moved up in line - only to realize the same thing and cut his losses too.


And jsreeds - Yeah I saw it. ;)
 
kayoh190 said:
It was roughly 2003, and in Austin (before the cost of living there really took off). To your point, $24K (or even $50K) would be a lot harder now than it was then.

But flying has always been like this - the pay is depressed because the job (right or wrong) attracts a certain type of person that can't imagine doing anything else. Not everyone is like me - I get that. For a lot of people the idea of flying professionally comes down to a numbers thing, and of course a job like IT or engineering will win out every time. But for some of us, that's not really the point. Jordan made it work. mtuomi made it work. I'm about as sharp as a basketball and somehow I made it work. So it *can* be done.

You're right - it's a lifestyle, and you're either okay with it or you're not. I'd argue that anyone sitting down and attempting to make an objective comparison between being a professional pilot or going into IT/engineering should stick to the tech side. And like you said, this job is at best cyclical and at worst downright treacherous. There's no way to predict what kind of career you're going to have. But life's short. My attitude is, if all you wanna do is fly - go fly. Do it with your eyes open, but come on out - the water is fine. :)
Click to expand...

I agree with the majority of your post, but I wanted to elaborate on a few things:

Many of these "Flying vs. Other Careers" threads turn into the proverbial ****ing match between the cube dwellers and the professional pilots. Fact is very few of these discussions are represented by people who have experienced BOTH sides (e.g. an engineering/business/sales/etc career AND a flying career). Most the time these discussions are the typical, "Well I thought about a flying career, but I make a very comfortable living at my current career and have a family to care for." Fair enough - totally understandable. I get it - not everyone can leave a $100k+/year salary for $20k.

I will say this, I've met several engineers who left the engineering career for a flying career and are very happy. In fact, I have yet to meet one that regretted the career jump. Most of these folks made the jump later in the game (mid 30s). This past week I found out that my hangar neighbor's son was a flight test engineer for Boeing. Hated it - high stress, long hours, working 7 days a week. Made the career jump and is really enjoying it. My point is, there are a lot of stories similar to his. And most importantly (to me anyways) - they have experience in BOTH career fields. There are a lot of pilots who have never stepped foot in a cube and there are a lot of engineers/business/sales folks who have never flown professionally. So if I am being honest, I tend to put more faith in those who have experienced both careers. That isn't to say I ignore those who haven't - everyone has a unique perspective.

Honestly, I'd write more, but I know I will be stepping on the toes of many. Everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all, despite what many say.

I will say this, sometimes I wish I would have learned a trade (custom home building, cabinetry, etc). I probably would have gone that route if I did. Something hands on with the potential of owning your own business.
 
CC268 said:
Honestly, I'd write more, but I know I will be stepping on the toes of many. Everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all, despite what many say.
Click to expand...

This is PoA - step on some damned toes! :)

But yeah, different strokes for different folks. Part of the reason for the ****ing matches is that there are tons of ways to be a pro pilot. Even within the airline ranks, there are a huge number of differing perspectives depending on who's doing the talking and what their specific situation is. It's no different in engineering, I'm sure.
 
Being married to a flight attendant that started later in life...she was hired by the majors directly and those slots are happening again for most airlines as many know that's only been in the last couple of years. All the Majors sort of quit hiring around 2008-10. I looked at her union contract and new hires are coming on at around $26.00 and after two years its about $31.00 top pay is around $60. They get about $2.75 an hour plus small bumps for International, Purser, Some slots on wide bodies and holidays. The reserve guarantee is 76 hours I believe...a new hire ends up with 30K a year if they work.

My wife is different she works to get her out of the house...and for flight benefits which we abuse on a regular basis...she routinely drops all her trips and just works the ones she likes or fits our schedule no more than 8-10 days a month and every time they offer a special 30 or 60 day leave (With benefits) she takes it. The job can have long days but she will tell you its not hard. The slots are very competitive, but turnover is high the first couple of years. She was overqualified and hired at her first interview and her background of working with the public and education got her hired. Sort of late to the game on this...

I have two daughters...patience and education...both gainfully employed one in Medicine and the other in Aviation...
 
PPC1052 said:
No joke, in all of the times I have flown, I only saw a good looking flight attendant once. And the kicker--

When she got close to my row with the drink service, I realized she is my 1st COUSIN!!!! WTF!
Click to expand...

LOL
 
kayoh190 said:
This is PoA - step on some damned toes! :)

But yeah, different strokes for different folks. Part of the reason for the ****ing matches is that there are tons of ways to be a pro pilot. Even within the airline ranks, there are a huge number of differing perspectives depending on who's doing the talking and what their specific situation is. It's no different in engineering, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

Haha I've shared my opinion a few times on here. Idk, mid to late career for a pilot seems pretty nice - especially with respect to schedule. Time with family and future kids is a big priority for me. Your not going to get that with a normal cube career.
 
kayoh190 said:
This is PoA - step on some damned toes! :)

But yeah, different strokes for different folks. Part of the reason for the ****ing matches is that there are tons of ways to be a pro pilot. Even within the airline ranks, there are a huge number of differing perspectives depending on who's doing the talking and what their specific situation is. It's no different in engineering, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

There’s a bunch of ways to be a pro pilot and a pro engineer that won’t pay well enough to exist on. Ha.

Anybody will hire cheap help if someone will do it. :)
 
I shoulda done IT. denver could be my mentor, no pay necessary, just some mountain flying instruction as compensation.
 
kayoh190 said:
To be fair, you were able to skip instructing, right? I'd say where you work is usually step two (and sometimes the last step - you have a pretty cool gig!) in the progression. :)

But to your point, I agree. Some on PoA love to use their current income as justification as to why they don't fly professionally, but they're coming from the point of view of someone established with a family and other responsibilities. For the young kids, it's fine. I made $24K my first year of doing this as a living (instructing), and made it work. Yes I had roommates. Yes I ate like garbage (two tacos at Jack In The Box for 99 cents!!!), but it was actually some of the most fun I had. Then I moved on to 340s, 421s - eventually popping my turbine cherry in the Cheyenne II making $50K/yr - and thought I had died and gone to heaven. :D
Click to expand...

I didn't instruct, that's true. But then again - skipping the CFI was my career plan all along. Not instructing was close to cost neutral to me. I paid just under $14k for my 250 to 500 hours of flight time. CFI would have cost me what, 7-8k? So difference was 6-7k. I made that up in first year earnings alone, so I guess I made money by not instructing :) I'm actually thinking of getting my CFI now. Just to do something on all my days off :)

To build time, I bought an airplane, flew the wings off it, sold it for a small profit, and ended up having 135 VFR minimums, something that allowed me to be employed at a non-CFI job. I've loved every minute of it. And my current gig is ridiculous as you know :)
 
Mtuomi...weren’t you an engineer before?
 
kayoh190 said:
This is PoA - step on some damned toes! :)

But yeah, different strokes for different folks. Part of the reason for the ****ing matches is that there are tons of ways to be a pro pilot. Even within the airline ranks, there are a huge number of differing perspectives depending on who's doing the talking and what their specific situation is. It's no different in engineering, I'm sure.
Click to expand...

That's very true. I remember when I was in college (mechanical engineer) a friend of mine (who was also a mechanical engineer, roughly 10 years older) told me that I needed to retake differential equations because I nearly failed it, and he said I would need to know it. Well, number of times I've used anything other than basic algebra in my engineering career (next month will mark 12 years since I entered the workforce)? 0. But, he took the path of doing the hard engineering calculations. I got hired on in engine test and then went into systems where I really wasn't doing any math, but more leading teams. Still doing that now. So I'm a trained engineer, but never done hard engineering. Got a lot of advice that I'm glad I didn't follow back in my college days.

No different as a pro pilot. Airlines are the most well known/obvious route, but plenty of people live in GA their whole career.

Having done it both ways, I can say the engineering compromises are right for my point in life. If I could rewind 12 years... I probably would've still made the same choices.
 
I am in DeltaOne on a international flight right now. The two ladies who run the front of the plane are probably eligible for medicare.

The majors didnt hire from 2001 to around 2016. There is a big hole in the age/seniority structure created by that reality. The FAs who hold those high seniority gigs are going to retire eventually, everyone down the ladder is going to move up a couple of rungs. There is going to be a major move opening more of the $60/hr slots in the coming years.

Maybe Mesa wasnt the right place to get started. Pick up 2 more languages and try for a gig with one of the majors.
 
weilke said:
I am in DeltaOne on a international flight right now. The two ladies who run the front of the plane are probably eligible for medicare.

The majors didnt hire from 2001 to around 2016. There is a big hole in the age/seniority structure created by that reality. The FAs who hold those high seniority gigs are going to retire eventually, everyone down the ladder is going to move up a couple of rungs. There is going to be a major move opening more of the $60/hr slots in the coming years.

Maybe Mesa wasnt the right place to get started. Pick up 2 more languages and try for a gig with one of the majors.
Click to expand...

Mesa isn't the right place for anyone...
 
CC268 said:
I shoulda done IT. denver could be my mentor, no pay necessary, just some mountain flying instruction as compensation.
Click to expand...

OT for this thread but post anything you want to know in the tech area. It’s a really stupid job sometimes. Other times it’s challenging and interesting.

I just left the office after kicking off some automation tests against a laptop that will see if we can completely get out of the manual patching business altogether (finally). It was semi-automated before but now it’s completely automated.
 
weilke said:
I am in DeltaOne on a international flight right now. The two ladies who run the front of the plane are probably eligible for medicare.

The majors didnt hire from 2001 to around 2016. There is a big hole in the age/seniority structure created by that reality. The FAs who hold those high seniority gigs are going to retire eventually, everyone down the ladder is going to move up a couple of rungs. There is going to be a major move opening more of the $60/hr slots in the coming years.

Maybe Mesa wasnt the right place to get started. Pick up 2 more languages and try for a gig with one of the majors.
Click to expand...

Appreciate it but I just don't think it was her thing.
 
CC268 said:
I agree with the majority of your post, but I wanted to elaborate on a few things:

Many of these "Flying vs. Other Careers" threads turn into the proverbial ****ing match between the cube dwellers and the professional pilots. Fact is very few of these discussions are represented by people who have experienced BOTH sides (e.g. an engineering/business/sales/etc career AND a flying career). Most the time these discussions are the typical, "Well I thought about a flying career, but I make a very comfortable living at my current career and have a family to care for." Fair enough - totally understandable. I get it - not everyone can leave a $100k+/year salary for $20k.

I will say this, I've met several engineers who left the engineering career for a flying career and are very happy. In fact, I have yet to meet one that regretted the career jump. Most of these folks made the jump later in the game (mid 30s). This past week I found out that my hangar neighbor's son was a flight test engineer for Boeing. Hated it - high stress, long hours, working 7 days a week. Made the career jump and is really enjoying it. My point is, there are a lot of stories similar to his. And most importantly (to me anyways) - they have experience in BOTH career fields. There are a lot of pilots who have never stepped foot in a cube and there are a lot of engineers/business/sales folks who have never flown professionally. So if I am being honest, I tend to put more faith in those who have experienced both careers. That isn't to say I ignore those who haven't - everyone has a unique perspective.

Honestly, I'd write more, but I know I will be stepping on the toes of many. Everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all, despite what many say.

I will say this, sometimes I wish I would have learned a trade (custom home building, cabinetry, etc). I probably would have gone that route if I did. Something hands on with the potential of owning your own business.
Click to expand...
To each their own. In the 2.5 years at my airline so far, I can say I could not have picked a better job. It’s the best full time part time job ever!
 
I have known some pilots that quit a job after making one flight. Seems to me they went to better places of employment.

I left a small regional after finishing the ground school and never regretted it for one second.
 
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My SIL just passed FA training school with Delta and has been working flights for a few weeks now. She loves it. I don't know how much she is making per hour but she looked at the benefits too and she and my brother have already used the free flying to go on a trip. This was a big career change, she was a nurse. She's around 50 years old but real hot still and looks great in her uniform, plus she's got the British accent thing going on (she is from the U.K.). She was frustrated with her job in the medical field and has always wanted to do something adventurous. Her personality is really suited for flight attending I think, she is very personable. Maybe the fact that she is older means she has had a lot of time to figure out who she really is and what she wants to do.
 
Zeldman said:
I have known some pilots that quit a job after making one flight. Seems to me they went to better places of employment.

I left a small regional after finishing the ground school and never regretted it for one second.
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That reminds me of my days in the merchant marine on the grain ship.

We’d get dudes from the union hall that would show up on the pier, take one look at the ship and get back in the cab and drive back to the airport!

It sucks when you work for a bottom feeder....
 
Rushie said:
My SIL just passed FA training school with Delta and has been working flights for a few weeks now. She loves it. I don't know how much she is making per hour but she looked at the benefits too and she and my brother have already used the free flying to go on a trip. This was a big career change, she was a nurse. She's around 50 years old but real hot still and looks great in her uniform, plus she's got the British accent thing going on (she is from the U.K.). She was frustrated with her job in the medical field and has always wanted to do something adventurous. Her personality is really suited for flight attending I think, she is very personable. Maybe the fact that she is older means she has had a lot of time to figure out who she really is and what she wants to do.
Click to expand...

You do realize this reply is worthless without pictures.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Although I agree with and share your method, their mother and I differ in that regard. I was raised with nothing, my wife was raised wanting for nothing. We meet in the middle for most things and I always said that my kids will have it better than I did. But when you factor things in such as: if they paid for their phone they wouldn't have one; therefore mama couldn't talk to them. If they paid for their car insurance they couldn't eat (okay, exaggerating just a bit here) etc, etc. Suffice it to say that we don't have near as many apron strings as we used to but a few are still attached.
Click to expand...

I had to learn to refrain from advice when I realized they were grown. Now I give it if asked, otherwise I just smile and say "oh...good for you" etc.
we older folk also have a tendency to see the problems and dangers in a lot of things because of life experiences and for a while I found myself to be "downer Dave" in that whatever the subject I would "warn" about possible problems. Realized, I wouldn't have listened much to that stuff either when I was younger.

I, like you, arrive early to appointments, if problems I manage to get there on time no matter what usually.
Our daughter when visiting never fails to forget something at our house, it's a running joke. I have long since given up on asking "you all have your telephones? Chargers? Shoes ? (Yeah, the grandkids forget shoes even!) jackets, etc.?" No matter what I checked they forgot something else. And always late, but then again, other than things like job appointments, etc, it seems to work out and not be a crisis.

Letting go of giving advice (when not asked for it) has been a total relief, and I'm a lot more fun when I'm not cautioning. The "kids" are adults, and they will make their own mistakes as I did and still do.

As for giving the kids what you didn't have...I have often thought of that. Just a hypothetical, but take a person that grew up poor, managed to work hard, and smart, and built up say a business, even got rich. Even though I understand the desire to "give them all I didn't have" why that person would deprive their kids of meeting challenges, being responsible, not having everything given to them, seems cruel to me. I worked in a lumber yard for a year to afford my first good guitar and amp. I bought a used Gibson ES-335 and an Ampeg Vt-22 amp...and I could not have been more satisfied or happy with it. Later in when I had money I'd buy other equipment, and not prize anything like I did that guitar and amp.

Many successful people (and musical groups) that make it, say that the most exciting and fun was getting there, the struggle and the rewards. Seems weird that a person would then just give the children everything, so they don't prize anything and never get that wonderful feeling of accomplishment.

And I'm not saying you do that, at all. I just mean in general.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Update:

She quit. Since she doesn't have a car in Dallas she ubered to the airport. The uber ride cost more than she made for two days. She met her room mate at the crash pad in Dallas, same story; she is broke and hemorrhaging money. She even spent the night in the airport and still lost money. I have no idea how airlines expect their flight attendants to pay their bills but maybe its obvious now, they are only worried about the airline.

I had hope that she would stick it out for at least six months but I can't say that I blame her for cutting her losses.
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I gotta tell you man, this whole act about your wife being the helicopter parent and not being willing to cut the strings, I'm not buying it. I've got a little girl, so I understand how you feel. But you came here to criticize her for not leaving Nashville two days early and then give her a pass for quitting two weeks in? She's got you wrapped around her finger.
 
Lindberg said:
I gotta tell you man, this whole act about your wife being the helicopter parent and not being willing to cut the strings, I'm not buying it. I've got a little girl, so I understand how you feel. But you came here to criticize her for not leaving Nashville two days early and then give her a pass for quitting two weeks in? She's got you wrapped around her finger.
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I dunno about just criticising, I think under all that is concern and frustration that he was looking for input on.
 
Lindberg said:
I gotta tell you man, this whole act about your wife being the helicopter parent and not being willing to cut the strings, I'm not buying it. I've got a little girl, so I understand how you feel. But you came here to criticize her for not leaving Nashville two days early and then give her a pass for quitting two weeks in? She's got you wrapped around her finger.
Click to expand...
Just because he’s come here to vent his legitimate frustrations doesn’t automatically equate to him hovering over her in real life.
 
Lindberg said:
I gotta tell you man, this whole act about your wife being the helicopter parent and not being willing to cut the strings, I'm not buying it. I've got a little girl, so I understand how you feel. But you came here to criticize her for not leaving Nashville two days early and then give her a pass for quitting two weeks in? She's got you wrapped around her finger.
Click to expand...

I didn't agree with her decision to leave Nashville late but I agree with her decision to cut her losses before she goes broke. That isn't exactly giving her a pass. In the end, both decisions were hers and she dealt with the consequences as an adult. I missed about 3 1/2 years of their life growing up because of remote assignments to Korea, England and deployments to SW Asia. Their mother had to do everything and make all the decisions regarding the girls while I was gone and although she is backing off due to frustration shared by me, she still wants to be involved. So their mother is the helicopter parent and their mother is the one that has me wrapped and I feel lucky to have her.
 
CC268 said:
I agree with the majority of your post, but I wanted to elaborate on a few things:

Many of these "Flying vs. Other Careers" threads turn into the proverbial ****ing match between the cube dwellers and the professional pilots. Fact is very few of these discussions are represented by people who have experienced BOTH sides (e.g. an engineering/business/sales/etc career AND a flying career). Most the time these discussions are the typical, "Well I thought about a flying career, but I make a very comfortable living at my current career and have a family to care for." Fair enough - totally understandable. I get it - not everyone can leave a $100k+/year salary for $20k.

I will say this, I've met several engineers who left the engineering career for a flying career and are very happy. In fact, I have yet to meet one that regretted the career jump. Most of these folks made the jump later in the game (mid 30s). This past week I found out that my hangar neighbor's son was a flight test engineer for Boeing. Hated it - high stress, long hours, working 7 days a week. Made the career jump and is really enjoying it. My point is, there are a lot of stories similar to his. And most importantly (to me anyways) - they have experience in BOTH career fields. There are a lot of pilots who have never stepped foot in a cube and there are a lot of engineers/business/sales folks who have never flown professionally. So if I am being honest, I tend to put more faith in those who have experienced both careers. That isn't to say I ignore those who haven't - everyone has a unique perspective.

Honestly, I'd write more, but I know I will be stepping on the toes of many. Everyone is unique. There is no one size fits all, despite what many say.

I will say this, sometimes I wish I would have learned a trade (custom home building, cabinetry, etc). I probably would have gone that route if I did. Something hands on with the potential of owning your own business.
Click to expand...
My primary flight instructor was an engineer. She never regretted moving to my knowledge. She’s retired now.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
My primary flight instructor was an engineer. She never regretted moving to my knowledge. She’s retired now.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the data point. Always great to hear from those who have experienced both sides of the fence
 
Timbeck2 said:
Information/experience - what you get just after you needed it. :sigh:
Click to expand...

I mean, it's only the first thing on Google...

Mesa is the current bottom feeder of all airlines. If she still is interested, there are plenty of decent regionals who offer things like duty rigs, where you get paid x amount of hours, no matter if you are delayed or cancelled.
Glamorous job it is not. But plenty of people live off it.
 
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