Any Traffic in the Area, Please Follow the AIM

I enjoy the ones telling their life story on a CTAF shared with half the airports in the state and you can hear them miles away.
"We're 10 point 7 miles west north west at 3 thousand 2 hundred feet and we're going to overfly the field at 2 thousand 4 hundred and 36 feet and go 3 miles to the east to turn inbound on a 45 degree teardrop entry to left traffic runway 16 for a touch and go landing to remain in the pattern."
Me: "Ten west, inbound, for landing" at least until I decide on a runway, then I'll add that.
Sometimes I omit the "for".
 
What I meant was that “clear of” is an important call, but “the active” is useless. I always say “clear of 20.” That conveys that I just landed on 20 and have vacated the runway.

I would add that if you're going to call clear of the runway, please at least make sure you're actually clear of the runway. Around here, "clear of the runway" often means "I can see the exit from where I am right now."

Tim+
 
time.

WIth a quiet ATC, and a quiet CTAF, I agree, listening to multiple frequencies is useful. But we are talking about busy frequencies, which is the whole point of this thread - shaving off a fraction of a second by avoiding saying 'last call'. If the frequency is that congested where saying 'last call' is taking up valuable time, I don't think it is possible to listen to that and ATC and the student simultaneously and make sense of anything.
My video’s title is, “A busy day at RDU.”
 
Two radios plus two channels on the network that act like radios plus a radar, an EW warning system, a targeting pod, the link picture, interfacing with weapons systems… listening to multiple isn’t unique, it’s pretty common.

I’m long since in that environment but I do set ATC in primary while CTAF goes in the back radio such that I can listen. Yes, with busy frequencies. Might not catch everything, though the volume to the active radio is louder so not gonna miss there, and hearing enough to get a mental picture developing. And I do it with students while not only teaching them, and also getting them to do the same.

It isn’t just my bandwidth I’m working with, it is also helping preserve a little of everyone elses’.

Yes, I fully agree. Humans can multitask with multi modalities. Radar + radio is a perfect example, so is flying + talking. But talking + listening + listening is a different thing, especially when both listening channels have randomly organized content. Yes, my second radio is always tuned to something - usually guard during cruise. That doesn't introduce any strain. But listening to ATC + ATIS/AWOS does take a bit more effort. Someone steps on exactly when the ATIS gets to the information I need. This is when the pilot is already familiar with the rhythm of the ATIS. I am not arguing that listening on the second radio is not useful. But when I brought up the question of what's the harm in 'any trafic please advise', one response was 'My guess is you haven't been into a REALLY busy airport'. These seem to be contradictory arguments being made.
 
And you didn't mention this one... but another DumbSh*t pop quiz for those that call off the Fixes...:D Do you also think you have the Right of Way over those in the pattern cuz you're might be IFR? Well, I hate to bust your bubble, but your CFII messed up on that one too, you DO NOT. Traffic in the pattern has the Right of Way over IFR and Straight In aircraft.
But... but... but... an aircraft on final approach has the right of way over all other aircraft including those on the ground... right?
 
We're 10 point 7 miles west north west at 3 thousand 2 hundred feet and we're going to overfly the field at 2 thousand 4 hundred and 36 feet and go 3 miles to the east to turn inbound on a 45 degree teardrop entry to left traffic runway 16 for a touch and go landing to remain in the pattern.
You should hear the Tower calls at Flagler (KFIN) "Flagler Tower, Skyhawk 1234 echo romeo is 9.7 Nautical miles west of Flagler, requesting closed traffic if possible and we have ATIS Romeo"
My call. Cherokee XXX 10 west, full stop, Romeo.
Wasted words
- Nautical and to some extent miles - what other possible units are there - I'm .0000000001 parsecs west?
- Decimal points after the miles - difference between precision and accuracy and who cares anyways
- Requesting - why else would you be calling
- If possible - Tower will let you know
- We have - Not that big of a deal if you get rid of the rest of the crap
- ATIS before the letter - again not that long, but what other reason would you have to say Romeo

BTW - ER call sign is Embry Riddle. They also do the "any traffic please advise" going into untowered airports and God forbid another one is already there. In that case - "the active is runway XX, 3 planes in the pattern" and potentially some other junk the incoming plane could have picked up by just listening. This is on a VFR day, so the ATC hasn't let me go yet really doesn't cut it. This on 122.8 with about 8 other airports in range with similar wasted words going on.

Now get off my lawn while I shake my fist at some clouds :)
 
You are correct, but I would hope that people in the VFR pattern would not cut off an IFR aircraft on a straight in approach just because they can.
The difficulty is defining "cut off". If someone calls a ten-mile straight in while I'm abeam the numbers, am I "cutting him off" if I turn base and land? If I'm sitting with my engine shut off by the time he finally touches down?

The rules say that aircraft on final have the right of way, and too many folks assume that if they use the magic word ("Final") everyone has to get out of their way.

Me, I'm an originalist.

When that rule was formalized, most planes didn't have radios. Thus speaketh the magic word over the idiot box doesn't count.

Ron Wanttaja
 
You are correct, but I would hope that people in the VFR pattern would not cut off an IFR aircraft on a straight in approach just because they can.
If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you may be "one of those guys" and you would be wrong in the assumption they are cutting you off, the reality is YOU would be the one cutting them off. If a plane in the pattern is about to turn Base, is on Base or is on a long Final and you come along, then NO they do not get out of your way, you get out of theirs. Sorry, that's just the way it is as you being IFR (or calling Straight In from 10 miles out) does not give you any priority over them. Period. (Sorry if I misinterpreted.)

The only time I'll land Straight In (IFR or not) is if the other aircraft is Crosswind or somewhere in the Downwind that my landing and getting off the Rwy will not affect their flight time in the pattern. They should not have to extend for me to go Straight In. I'll usually call my Straight in and add "... if it doesn't conflict with traffic in the pattern..." and then sometimes someone will say "I'll extend a bit for you." That's great and I'm very appreciative, I'll often do the same thing if I'm in the pattern. But otherwise, the Straight in has to break off and join the normal pattern, IFR or not. Sorry, that's just the way it is. And it's not just my opinion, lots of FAA docs that say it and I hope CFIs are teaching it.

And I'll add one other note. If the pattern is really busy and there are 3 to 8 planes behind me, no I will not extend and the Straight In needs to break off and join the patten. Only time I had what could have been a mid-air was going into BID with the usual 5+ planes in the pattern with a new one joining the DW every time someone landed. Some guy in a Cessna that really was #5 was dutifully announcing what he was doing... but he was NOT LISTENING or obviously looking out the window. I was #2 for landing after an extended DW with two more planes behind me in the DW & Base. He dutifully turned Base when he got to about the 45 degree angle back to the threshold and yes, was turning right in front of me and the timing would have had us meet as he was turning Final. I heard and saw him, but he didn't acknowledge any of my radio calls and he obviously didn't see me. So when it's really busy, you plan ahead and go out and join the pattern in sequence with everyone else, then there are other times when you're the only one at an airport and you can do pretty much any kind of pattern you want.
 
That's not what FAR 91.113 says.
Weeeelllll... If you're saying someone in the Crosswind part of the pattern, on the 45 entry or way down in the DW so that there's no conflict. Okay.

If you're saying where the plane in the Pattern would have to change their flight path in ANY way to allow the Straight In to land first AND clear the Rwy. Sorry, you're wrong, the plane in the Pattern does have the Right of Way per 91.113. It's the "...but it shall not take advantage of this rule..." part that will have you talking to the the guys in the suites. If you try to claim you were lower or were on Final when in reality they would have been on Final first if you didn't cut them off is the crux of the Reg. AC 90-66C clarifies it and there may even be a Legal Interpretation out there (but I'm not sure why anyone would need it interpreted. :D)
 
Do you also think you have the Right of Way over those in the pattern cuz you're might be IFR? Well, I hate to bust your bubble, but your CFII messed up on that one too, you DO NOT. Traffic in the pattern has the Right of Way over IFR and Straight In aircraft.

That's not what FAR 91.113 says.

One the one hand, agree, on the other, I think they’re trying to get at something beyond right-of-way with “shall not take advantage of” language for which perhaps other countries may get better. Something for which both aircraft should be considering:

FAR91.113 said:
Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way
over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and
is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are
approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-
of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final
approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

vs this thought:

“In a recent conversation with my brother who lived in Sweden for a few years, he mentioned their driving rules had a mentality that no one had right of way. This meant if anyone else had to adapt their driving to accommodate your driving, you were in the wrong. Likewise, if you had to adapt for them, they were in the wrong. In this way both parties could be simultaneously in the wrong. This is interesting as no one gets possessive about having right of way and therefore no one tries to defend their perceived right of way. Note right of way does not reflect any physical reality and is merely social construct. Think about how this would apply to the Watsonville situation. The twin was wrong as the single would have had to have adapted actions for both to survive. And the single was wrong as the twin would have had to adapt actions for both to have survived. The single would not have presumed a right of way and despite being ‘right,’ cut in front of another fast moving aircraft. And the fast moving aircraft would have shifted right to pass outside much sooner. Our ‘right of way’ mindset instilled in us by our rulesets and procedures kills us.
“I asked him if I had this correctly, he replied
“Most of it. The concept in Sweden is ‘give preference to’ — you are responsible for avoiding incidents / making a safe environment. Think of it like the classic sidewalk dance (or chicken if you prefer) — if both people approaching each other step sideways to avoid a collision, there is still a 50% chance of collision. Right of way mindset assumes one person clearly has the right of way (because they are walking into the sun, have glasses, wearing running shoes, everyone walks in that direction on this side of the street, you pick the reason). One problem with right of way is each individual decides when they ‘own’ or ‘surrender’ the right, and they communicate their perceptions and decisions by their actions. However, if you are responsible for avoiding incidents, it helps if you give preference in an expected direction. There is a much lower chance of collision (there is always someone fixated on their phone who makes erratic moves).
- https://medium.com/@jamesmcclaranallen/the-contrarian-aviator-sometimes-turns-right-89da7d61d132
 
If you're saying where the plane in the Pattern would have to change their flight path in ANY way to allow the Straight In to land first AND clear the Rwy. Sorry, you're wrong, the plane in the Pattern does have the Right of Way per 91.113.

Someone is wrong (and incorrect) here… the AC in no way says the other having to adapt is taking advantage of. Taking advantage of would be the crop duster or helicopter popping in ‘cause they’re lower while cutting off both the plane on base and the one on final with whom the one on base is arguing.

You can argue and try to be correct all day long; whether you’re right or not and whether you survive is a different story.

(Hopefully the helicopter will simply land on the ramp or a taxiway further from the situation. Maybe the crop duster could land in the grass and so too avoid the issue?)

 
The difficulty is defining "cut off". If someone calls a ten-mile straight in while I'm abeam the numbers, am I "cutting him off" if I turn base and land? If I'm sitting with my engine shut off by the time he finally touches down?

The rules say that aircraft on final have the right of way, and too many folks assume that if they use the magic word ("Final") everyone has to get out of their way.

Me, I'm an originalist.

When that rule was formalized, most planes didn't have radios. Thus speaketh the magic word over the idiot box doesn't count.

Ron Wanttaja

I never assumed that announcing “final” gives anyone some special privilege. Short final, yes, but a three-mile final is really no different from saying “three miles north/west/south of the field.”

More importantly, a runway is a shared resource, and we should be respectful of others using it, much as we would when standing in line at a cashier. If a second register opens, let the person who was ahead of you go first. Those extra 100 seconds aren't going to matter, but that small gesture becomes part of a habit of courtesy that is worth a lot more.

I've slowed down to give an airplane ahead of me more time, or done a 360 to let someone else pass me and go in front. Those gestures are usually greeted with gratitude by the other pilot. It feels good to be part of a system where people are considerate of one another.

Once in a while we run into jerks, but they are few and far between. I don't think it's worth formulating elaborate rules just to deal with the occasional one.
 
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If an airplane says, “I'm one mile out, joining the 45 to the downwind... any traffic please advise,”
If an airplane says, "I'm one mile out, joining the 45 to the downwind," only potentially conflicting traffic needs to say something. "...any traffic please advise" adds nothing.
 
Coming into PSM if I’m on final ahead of the Antonov, and for some reason I’m slow, tower is gonna wave me off for them to get in and land unhindered so as to avoid them having to go around and take another lap. I may be lower, and I may have already been cleared to land, but this is just what’s gonna happen.
 
The difficulty is defining "cut off".

Exactly.

The rules say that aircraft on final have the right of way, and too many folks assume that if they use the magic word ("Final") everyone has to get out of their way.

I would argue the root cause is the lack of a clear definition of "final" applicable to both VFR and IFR flight.

IMO it could be resolved by defining final approach as "aligned with the runway and descending below pattern altitude."

We had a long PoA thread about this issue a few years ago after the accident where the twin on straight in clobbered a trainer on base. This particular regulatory ambiguity will continue to kill people until fixed.
 
We had a long PoA thread about this issue a few years ago after the accident where the twin on straight in clobbered a trainer on base. This particular regulatory ambiguity will continue to kill people until fixed.

I don’t buy this; what the twin was doing was egregious and not matching the typical straight in scenario. Further, there were things both aircraft could have done to avoid the situation. Had the Cessna not adhered to the absolute of the script to which he was trained, he would have survived. Had he extended through final on base, he would have survived. Had he made for a level and inside upwind in going around, he would have survived. That’s not to blame the Cessna, I think the twin gets all the blame here, rather it is to show regulatory clarity and absolutism can actually be more problematic than ambiguity. It also goes to correct and right being different, safety and survival being different.
 
If an airplane says, "I'm one mile out, joining the 45 to the downwind," only potentially conflicting traffic needs to say something. "...any traffic please advise" adds nothing.

It does add something. “Joining the 45 to the downwind” says that I am aware of the traffic already on downwind and will maintain separation.

“Joining the 45 to the downwind... any traffic please advise” conveys something different: “I just arrived on frequency and may not be aware of the traffic in the pattern, so if I am in conflict with someone, please say so.”

You may disagree with whether that is a useful or desirable message, but that is different from saying the phrase adds nothing.
 
One the one hand, agree, on the other, I think they’re trying to get at something beyond right-of-way with “shall not take advantage of” language for which perhaps other countries may get better. Something for which both aircraft should be considering:
I think you might be mixing apples and oranges. When flying, yes you always have to watch out for the other guy. But if there are not specific rules and Right of Ways, then you get people suddenly appearing where you (and no one else) expected them to come from. (And my Swedish friend agreed you may be pushing the watch out for the other guy and there are no Right of Ways concept.:D)

It is pretty clear that the IFR and Straight In traffic needs to give way to anyone in the Pattern that they may affect. It's in the Regs, AIM, etc., but AC 90-66C puts it all in one place. (I also tossed in the one about not reporting a Fix on an Approach plate, but to give your distance and direction so VFR pilots know where you are.)

AC 90-66C Excerpts:
9.11.3 IFR Traffic. Pilots conducting instrument approaches in VMC should be particularly alert for other aircraft in the pattern so as to avoid interrupting the flow of traffic and should bear in mind they do not have priority over other VFR traffic. Pilots are reminded that circling approaches must comply with § 91.126(b) unless the approach procedure explicitly states otherwise. Remember, if the Chart Supplement lists right-hand traffic at a non-towered airport, pilots conducting practice instrument approaches in VMC should circle to the right to enter the traffic pattern.

9.11.5 Consider That Non-Instrument-Rated Pilots May Not Understand. A non-instrument-rated pilot might not understand radio calls referring to approach waypoints, depicted headings, or missed approach procedures. IFR pilots often indicate that they are on a particular approach, but that may not be enough information for a non-IFR-rated pilot to know your location. It is better to provide specific direction and distance from the airport, as well as the pilot’s intentions upon completion of the approach. For example, instead of saying, “PROCEDURE TURN INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH 36,” state, “6 MILES SOUTH INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH RUNWAY 36, PLANNING TURNING (right or left) TO AVOID FLYING OVER THE AIRPORT, or state, “6 MILES SOUTH INBOUND V-O-R APPROACH RUNWAY 36, LANDING FULL STOP.” You should be clear and concise. The other traffic needs to know what to expect in order to take appropriate actions that avoid a midair collision.

9.13 Pilot Responsibility to See and Avoid and Pilot Avoiding Careless and Reckless Operations (§ 91.13). In the airport traffic pattern, effective communication and a pilot’s responsibility to see and avoid are essential mitigations to avoid a possible midair collision. In addition, following established traffic pattern procedures eliminates excessive maneuvering at low altitudes which mitigate the risk of a loss-of-aircraft control. All aircraft in the pattern or those flying a straight-in approach for landing in order to mitigate the risk of a conflict should effectively communicate their type of aircraft, distance from the runway in use, and state that they will or will not land on the runway in use. It is important to remember that non-adherence to established procedures and operations in the airport traffic pattern or on the surface of the airport that could endanger the life or property of another and could expose the pilot to an investigation based upon their careless or reckless operation.
 
You can argue and try to be correct all day long; whether you’re right or not and whether you survive is a different story.
Bottom line is some pilots will barge into the pattern because they are "IFR and I'm god" or whatever. Yes, I would hope I would avoid them to stay alive... but it still sounds like you're saying that's okay.
 
I would argue the root cause is the lack of a clear definition of "final" applicable to both VFR and IFR flight.
Since I had AC 90-66C open I looked for Final and found:
APPENDIX A. TRAFFIC PATTERNS
5. Final approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

So in regards to that 10 mile "Extended Final" and actually being on "Final to Land" it is from that point where you would have turned from Base to Final. So it would appear that anything else is just you headed for the airport and I've always contended that is not part of the Pattern. Looks like the FAA has finally clarified that.
 
Since I had AC 90-66C open I looked for Final and found:
APPENDIX A. TRAFFIC PATTERNS
5. Final approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

So in regards to that 10 mile "Extended Final" and actually being on "Final to Land" it is from that point where you would have turned from Base to Final. So it would appear that anything else is just you headed for the airport and I've always contended that is not part of the Pattern. Looks like the FAA has finally clarified that.

Which also means should I give a courtesy call of “three mile right downwind” followed by “right base” after being vectored east from over Boston heading to PYM landing 33, I’m not in the pattern merely picking such up on final, remember entries are not prescribed only flow, and while I think you’d like to know my positions and intention, I don’t want to hear you yelling on the radio “we don’t do right patterns here!” while I’m doing the visual approach as cleared by Boston Approach in the manner they expect me to do.
 
PS: I know many think the Charlie edition of 90-66 is the “Watsonville” paper, but I disagree. I think there is more from the New England FSDOs with such stemming from an irate airfield manager at Bar Harbor (KBHB) upset that jets liked to do right downwinds to bases for 22 when arriving from the southwest. Guess what, the jets were doing it right. And, as likely they were probably three to five miles wide, their calls were really courtesy and they weren’t actually in the pattern.

Kinda like someone upset that peeps would call upwind on the go not calling it departure which makes no sense to call it if you’re staying in the pattern.
 
You’d have to draw that out to me because I don’t see how such happens. Even if two planes were headed to opposite runways, the outside upwind leg isn’t displaced anywhere near downwind spacing. A “teardrop” to the forty-five done too close, however, could though this too doesn’t make sense as the downwind from such would be too tight. Perhaps someone who doesn’t know what the initial is and where it is essentially S-turning with their “overhead” leg being the middle of the S? But this doesn’t make sense either as their turn radius would either displace them outside the downwind or well inside the runway in the break leg. An actual overhead entry with a break is merely an outside upwind to crosswind with the turn being energy dissipating. Generally that turn is a 180 turn as opposed to a square leg, but it is still merely an upwind to crosswind to downwind. Nothing fancy. And such isolates traffic forward hemisphere from the initial with such shifting toward forward quarter as one closes with the airfield. Yes, you may have someone aft of this to whom you are working your interval spacing, but at that point you’re tracking them as opposed to searching and detecting. The overhead does not conflict with a normal pattern as it is outside of such. The break is a crosswind and a crosswind is a normal part of a pattern.

Perhaps I used the wrong terminology, so I will describe what I saw in detail. While I was on the 45 approaching downwind, he overflew the approach end of the runway and started a 180 to join the downwind. When he was halfway through the 180, we were head-to-head at pattern altitude, and if I had turned to downwind it was obvious that there would have been a serious collision risk. That is why I took evasive action.
 
Perhaps I used the wrong terminology, so I will describe what I saw in detail. While I was on the 45 approaching downwind, he overflew the approach end of the runway and started a 180 to join the downwind. When he was halfway through the 180, we were head-to-head at pattern altitude, and if I had turned to downwind it was obvious that there would have been a serious collision risk. That is why I took evasive action.

He broke at the approach end and floated to midfield in the break turn? What were your line of sight rates? Was there really collision risk or was he going to be ahead of you? Familiar with a “Tac Turn”?
 
I don’t want to hear you yelling on the radio “we don’t do right patterns here!” while I’m doing the visual approach as cleared by Boston Approach in the manner they expect me to do.
Ummm.... you do know when you're in VMC you have to follow the prescribed traffic pattern when landing at a Non-Towered airport. So the reason they are yelling at you is because PYM has LEFT Traffic. So sounds like you should be either maneuvering to enter the Left DW or do an overhead and then enter the Left DW. If ATC has give you a Visual, it is up to you to fly into the airport correctly. So all you need to do is give ATC a heads up why you're flying in the direction you are and they could care less.

If there were other non radio traffic or some newbie Solo pilot, you've just set yourself up for a potential midair where your incorrect Right Base meets Final and someone else might be in the correct Left Base.
 
The difficulty is defining "cut off". If someone calls a ten-mile straight in while I'm abeam the numbers, am I "cutting him off" if I turn base and land? If I'm sitting with my engine shut off by the time he finally touches down?

The rules say that aircraft on final have the right of way, and too many folks assume that if they use the magic word ("Final") everyone has to get out of their way.

Me, I'm an originalist.

When that rule was formalized, most planes didn't have radios. Thus speaketh the magic word over the idiot box doesn't count.

Ron Wanttaja

Regarding whether the right-of-way regulation has been violated, note that it says that "When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear." - 91.113(b)

"Well clear" is not defined as far as I know, but if you haven't flown close enough to the right-of-way aircraft to create a hazard, and if you haven't caused the right-of-way aircraft to take evasive action, then I would say that you have met the "well clear" requirement.

As has been noted, 91.113(g) gives traffic on final the right-of-way, but the advisory circular has language that can be interpreted to contradict that regulation. As a result, nobody knows what the other pilot is going to do. I think this was a factor in the Watsonville mid-air some years ago.
 
As has been noted, 91.113(g) gives traffic on final the right-of-way, but the advisory circular has language that can be interpreted to contradict that regulation.
Which language/section? And which AC to be clear.

I guess I missed the contradiction. (Not that you don't find yourself nodding off reading some of this stuff.)
 
while I’m doing the visual approach as cleared by Boston Approach in the manner they expect me to do.
Just curious: You're cleared for a visual approach to an uncontrolled airport. In 100 words or less, what does Boston Approach have to do with it?
 
He broke at the approach end and floated to midfield in the break turn?

I don't know where he was when he started the 180. What I do know is that when he was part of the way through the 180, we were pointed right at each other, at approximately the same altitude.

What were your line of sight rates?

What are "line of sight rates"? I'm not familiar with that terminology.

Was there really collision risk or was he going to be ahead of you?

When I saw that we here head-to-head, we were close enough together that it was obvious that there was a VERY real collision risk, and that my turning to downwind would have been unsafe.

Familiar with a “Tac Turn”?

Is that some kind of a tight turn to downwind? If so, I don't think it would have helped, because I fly a tight downwind. It looked me to like we were about to occupy the same space, so I turned away from him.
 
Which language/section? And which AC to be clear.

I guess I missed the contradiction. (Not that you don't find yourself nodding off reading some of this stuff.)

Several people have been referencing AC 90-66C earlier in the thread. Section 9.11.1 includes the following: "Pilots choosing to execute a straight-in approach do not have a
particular priority over other aircraft in the traffic pattern and must comply with the provisions of § 91.113(g)."

That sentence is self-contradictory, because 91.113(g) says that traffic on final has the right-of-way.

If they were trying to solve the Watsonville problem, they failed miserably!
 
Ummm.... you do know when you're in VMC you have to follow the prescribed traffic pattern when landing at a Non-Towered airport.

Not until after you have entered it.
 
@M20K @Roger Wilco @midlifeflyer @Palmpilot @Ed Haywood

RE visual approach into non-towered field from the cold side: Well, then, I guess I’ll just minimize more zip lip calling ten east northeast, five east, and three mile final (which also intercepts a jet/twin base if you go by three hundred feet per mile). Better, I won’t have switched yet and only make the three mile final call.

As a result, nobody knows what the other pilot is going to do.

Almost like

a courtesy call of “three mile right downwind” followed by “right base”

resolves this.


You don’t want clear cut rules here. There is too much varying context to be able to create such while making pilots overly restrained will force them into doing bad things given unique circumstances of their situation.

Now, go back to that overhead entry. Realize how easy it is for someone on final to side step slightly outside and turn it into an outside upwind to crosswind? Similarly, how easy is it for someone to extend downwind? It’s simple enough for someone on base to level off and float to the outside for upwind to cross. Depending on seating, and cross cockpit scanning, they could even do an inside upwind if needed. Real-time deconfliction isn’t hard. The issue is when someone feels they must defend some sense of perceived “owned” position. Such is not a problem rules will resolve though rules can make it worse by helping to create sense of entitlement.
 
You don’t want clear cut rules here.
People want clear cut rule here. Problem is,
There is too much varying context to be able to create such....
The "interfere" language in the AC comes from a pair of enforcement actions against Alaska Airlines pilots back in the early 1990s. In both cases, the pilot was accused of making right turns in the left hand pattern. In both cases, the pilot, among other things, argued that their right turn to final was 4 NM away and therefore outside the pattern. The defense didn't work. The NTSB admitted there was "some ambiguity in the abstract" about the metes and bounds of the pattern but that' even if it were not a pattern direction violation:

... aircraft making valid straight-in approaches at uncontrolled airports would, nevertheless, be deemed in violation of FAR section 91.89(a) if they interfered with other aircraft operating in the standard left-hand pattern. Here, respondent's aircraft in fact interfered with another aircraft in that pattern, which was on final approach to Ralph Wien Airport.11 Consequently, even if respondent's approach could have been considered a straight-in approach, the Board would be compelled to find a section 91.89(a) violation in this case. FAA v Rivard (NTSB, 1991) [91.89 was the traffic pattern rule before a Part 91 recodification.]​

People took all sorts of lessons from the case. Those looking for absolute certainty came out with 5 miles being the definition of being "in" or "outside" the pattern. The takeaway of others, comfortable with the reality, was the the metes and bounds of the traffic pattern depends on the aircraft operating in it.

Edit: Just saw @Lindberg's reference to Boardman, which mentions Rivard.
 
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