Am I being unreasonable?

Princesspilot206 said:
He did not want to be the one to retract the flaps, but was questioning why I did upon landing. Which was something I was taught to do by a sharp, seasoned, and respected CFI many moons ago. Never had anyone question me about that before.
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It’s a technique thing that some will question and others won’t. Some of the reasons for questioning it were mentioned, but overall it comes down to a combination of:
(1) lack of need to do it.
(2) unnecessary distraction on the runway. (I’ve actually had to take control from a pilot to prevent going off the runway in a strong crosswind.)
(3) a history of unintentional gear-up landings.
 
tsts4 said:
BTW, I absolutely abhor those taxi calls. We have a flight school on my field that teaches that technique and all it does is clog the freq with what is, IMO, useless chatter that does nothing to contribute to safety.
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Agreed
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yeah, maybe retracting flaps on rollout isn't a problem for "me," but what's the downside of waiting until off the runway?
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Less braking action due to less weight on wheels. Might not be a big difference with high wing, but it makes a big difference on a Mooney.

But my gear switch is at the top of the panel in clear view and the flap switch is down on the center console. Hard to make a mistake and retract the gear.
 
Re the flap retraction on runway, I’ve had excellent CFIs instruct me to do it, and others to never do it- to delay retraction until clear of the runway as pasty of the after landing actions/check.
My personal belief? It depends. Fully understanding that many have inadvertently chosen the incorrect control, and there but for the grace of god, go I…
 
Taxi calls can be pointless or necessary. Depends entirely on the local situation. Experienced pilots can usually tell the difference.

While pointless calls can be annoying, they are rarely outright harmful. Therefore, I can see why large schools catering to aspiring professional pilots teach their students to make taxi calls as a matter of habit. As they progress, they will likely spend much of their careers at towered airports, where ground movement calls are expected.
 
On the taxi call
Ed Haywood said:
Taxi calls can be pointless or necessary. Depends entirely on the local situation. Experienced pilots can usually tell the difference.

While pointless calls can be annoying, they are rarely outright harmful. Therefore, I can see why large schools catering to aspiring professional pilots teach their students to make taxi calls as a matter of habit. As they progress, they will likely spend much of their careers at towered airports, where ground movement calls are expected.
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I totally get movement calls such as back taxing or clearing the runway, or some type of hot spot. But calls leaving the ramp to the run up areas or a particular intersection rarely provide any real value, IMO. Couple that with stammering students and heavy traffic the inevitable result is stepped on transmissions and the loss of timely position reports which can lead to a safety issue. The argument that they are training for a profession aviation career and therefore need to learn to make those calls is total BS.
 
Taxi calls when moving between or around hangars can be helpful. When nobody makes calls and someone comes whipping around the corner and there you both are, face to face.
Can even help saying you're taxiing to the fuel pump, so others know not to leave their plane there when they go into the FBO for(ever).
If you aren't interfering with other radio calls, it really can't hurt.
 
SFDukie said:
Re the flap retraction on runway, I’ve had excellent CFIs instruct me to do it, and others to never do it- to delay retraction until clear of the runway as pasty of the after landing actions/check.
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The key is the latter can point to FAA guidance to support their instruction. The former has to explain why his or her instruction contradicts FAA guidance.

Even if the former has a good explanation, I think a student over time can begin to question who they should believe. And on a checkride the examiner may even find a deviation from FAA guidance a small strike against the student.

But we’re all adults, and once free of an instructor’s tutelage can do what we want. I’ll stick with “the book”, and encourage my students to do the same. I just don’t see much of a downside.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Taxi calls can be pointless or necessary. Depends entirely on the local situation. Experienced pilots can usually tell the difference.
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Agree, and that also goes for countless other perpetual arguments.

My pet peeve is the, "I was always taught to always (or never) . . . " which is silly a excuse to do something that might sometimes be necessary and sometimes be better done a different way or not done at all. I'm not sure if some of those subtleties can be taught or if they can only be gained by experience.

I sense in the original post that neither the student nor the instructor really understand that concept. :eek:
 
Ed Haywood said:
While pointless calls can be annoying, they are rarely outright harmful.
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They are harmful when they block other transmissions, and an aircraft on the ground may not realize they are blocking transmissions because of poor reception.
Therefore, I can see why large schools catering to aspiring professional pilots teach their students to make taxi calls as a matter of habit. As they progress, they will likely spend much of their careers at towered airports, where ground movement calls are expected.
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And they'll be expected to ask permission for push back, and engine start, is the flight school going to have them do that in a Cessna 172? What about having student pilots call clearance delivery? This is not an argument.
 
dmspilot said:
What about having student pilots call clearance delivery? This is not an argument.
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It's a good idea. We don't have any airports nearby with clearance delivery. In Green Bay, however, the ATIS instructs VFR pilots to inform clearance delivery of the route of flight and requested altitude.
 
CFI and CFII with about 500hr know it all and feel they can handle everything, at about 1,000hr they think all the students are out to kill them at about 1500hr they are great instructors but then they fly off to the airlines and it starts again with a new CFI. If you are not comfortable with your instructor change now don't wait find one you like.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
It's a good idea. We don't have any airports nearby with clearance delivery. In Green Bay, however, the ATIS instructs VFR pilots to inform clearance delivery of the route of flight and requested altitude.
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We were talking about taxi calls on CTAF. I'm talking about VFR at an uncontrolled airport.
 
Pinecone said:
Less braking action due to less weight on wheels. Might not be a big difference with high wing, but it makes a big difference on a Mooney
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If you are landing on runways where it makes a difference, of course you use any advantage - even in a high wing. Plant it on the threshold, dump flaps, firm braking. But I doubt 10% of the light piston population lands with any regularity, if ever, on runways like that. Even in a Mooney.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you are landing on runways where it makes a difference, of course you use any advantage - even in a high wing. Plant it on the threshold, dump flaps, firm braking. But I doubt 10% of the light piston population lands with any regularity, if ever, on runways like that. Even in a Mooney.
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I raise the flaps so I can brake effectively enough to exit on the first taxiway, and it's good practice for making an emergency landing on a short runway, or even NO runway. ;)

Of course, I haven flown a retractable for years and don't envision flying in one again, so I can do it any way that works.
 
dmspilot said:
We were talking about taxi calls on CTAF. I'm talking about VFR at an uncontrolled airport.
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I work at an uncontrolled airport. I have no issue with taxi calls. The frequency is never crowded. You let us know you're taxiing to the fuel pumps? Fine.

Unfortunately, our students have minimal contact with ATC, and are very uncertain about calling clearance delivery or even ground control at Class D.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I work at an uncontrolled airport. I have no issue with taxi calls. The frequency is never crowded. You let us know you're taxiing to the fuel pumps? Fine.

Unfortunately, our students have minimal contact with ATC, and are very uncertain about calling clearance delivery or even ground control at Class D.
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Then take them to another airport. Don't pretend the CTAF is a tower/ground/CD frequency.
 
dbahn said:
raise the flaps so I can brake effectively enough to exit on the first taxiway, and it's good practice for making an emergency landing on a short runway, or even NO runway. ;)
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I do exactly the same - for practice. It’s also the non-ACS short field landing I use for flight reviews and transitions on our 6000’ runway to provide some sense of realism. But with the 1st taxiway (other than at the threshold) at 1300 and 1000, we usually don’t need to bother with dumping flaps or super heavy breaking.

But I don’t see practice for a special condition as a basis for a standard practice of raising flaps on normal rollout any more than I see a power off from abeam a landing SOP or touch and go as practice for a go-around.

Never even did the flap thing for the few years I spent flying out of an 1800 foot runway.

Just IMO. YMMV.
 
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Gilbert Buettner said:
Unfortunately, our students have minimal contact with ATC, and are very uncertain about calling clearance delivery or even ground control at Class D.
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Why? That sounds like a major, albeit sadly common, training deficiency. Your profile says Wausau, WI. You based that far away from CWA thats it’s not a regular destination or even the subject of a repeated cross country solo endorsement? And ATW and GRB look like ideal choices for cross countries.
 
Roger Wilco said:
On the other hand, there have been THOUSANDS of incidents in which pilots have inadvertently retracted the landing gear while rolling-out after landing.
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Where can I read more about that?
 
172andyou said:
Where can I read more about that?
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You can start by searching for articles about why gear switches are shaped like a wheel and flap switches are shaped like an airfoil. Then continue on to articles about why Beech decided to change the position of gear and flap switches in 1984. Probably closely related is why Beech decided to swap the position of the throttle and prop controls at that same time.
 
Roger Wilco said:
On the other hand, there have been THOUSANDS of incidents in which pilots have inadvertantly retracted the landing gear while rolling-out after landing.
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That has NEVER happened in a fixed gear plane.

In a fixed gear tailwheel airplane with a strong crosswind there are some occasions when you may need differential braking to prevent ground looping. In the Pawnee I routinely do this on rollout, as gusty crosswinds are common at the airport where I tow gliders. I just don't see any downside to doing it that way, other than briefly removing your hand from the throttle as you reach for the flap handle (eyes remaining forward).
 
MauleSkinner said:
You can start by searching for articles about why gear switches are shaped like a wheel and flap switches are shaped like an airfoil. Then continue on to articles about why Beech decided to change the position of gear and flap switches in 1984. Probably closely related is why Beech decided to swap the position of the throttle and prop controls at that same time.
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Google turned up nothing to suggest that thousands was legit. But rather than just say that the claim was nonsense, I considered the possibility that I didn't have the right search strings and maybe there really is a history that includes thousands of retractions but somehow evades the search terms I was using. So, I ask again, where can I read more about this claim?
 
172andyou said:
Google turned up nothing to suggest that thousands was legit.
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Did your search turn up anything to suggest that thousands is not "legit?" I ask that rhetorically here, because these digressions from the thread's topic merit their own threads.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Did your search turn up anything to suggest that thousands is not "legit?" I ask that rhetorically here, because these digressions from the thread's topic merit their own threads.
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Yes, the lack of anyone publishing what would be a shockingly large amount of improper gear retracts suggests that it never happened. Where did you read about this?
 
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