AITA? - Questions about interaction with Tower Controller

pburger

pburger

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Houston, TX
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Paul B.
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This past Saturday I was flying in to a Class D airport, and I got some unnecessary guidance on my phraseology from the tower (at least that's how I see it). The following is verbatim as verified by liveATC.net, with the names changed:

Initial call:
[ME]: Podunk Tower, Arrow 1234F
[TOWER]: Arrow 1234F, Podunk Tower
[ME]: Arrow 1234F 15 southeast, 4000 descending, with information X-ray, landing Podunk
[TOWER]: 1234F enter left downwind runway 18R.
[ME]: 34F Roger uh will enter left downwind for 18R
[TOWER]: Callsign
I'm thinking: "Callsign?" is that for me? did I forget to say my callsign? did he want my full callsign? I was confused, so I responded after a second or two:
[ME]: 1234F

Later when entering pattern:
[ME}: Podunk Tower, 1234F is left downwind for 18R and man we've got a heck of a crosswind up here.
[TOWER]: Cherokee 1234F Podunk Tower Roger winds are currently 210 at 13 gusts 20, runway 18R cleared to land
[ME]: 34F Roger, 18R cleared to land
[TOWER]: Callsign
[ME]: Okay I said "34F Roger, 18R cleared to land" I'll say it again though, at the end, 34F
[TOWER]: Thank you

I was a little agitated at this point, because he essentially called me out twice for what? I'm still not sure.

After landing all my responses were a little snippy with my callsign at the beginning and the end such as "34F Roger Taxi via Delta Alpha 34F"

So, what's the deal?
1. Is the pilot allowed to abbreviate the callsign after 2-way communication has been established? YES [EDIT - I guess not.]
2. Is the pilot required to use his callsign at the end of each transmission? NO, it can be at the beginning or the end.
3. AITA for being agitated about being improperly scolded? or
4. Am I missing something entirely?
 
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pburger said:
This past Saturday I was flying in to a Class D airport, and I got some unnecessary guidance on my phraseology from the tower (at least that's how I see it). The following is verbatim as verified by liveATC.net, with the names changed:

Initial call:
[ME]: Podunk Tower, Arrow 1234F
[TOWER]: Arrow 1234F, Podunk Tower
[ME]: Arrow 1234F 15 southeast, 4000 descending, with information X-ray, landing Podunk
[TOWER]: 1234F enter left downwind runway 18R.
[ME]: 34F Roger uh will enter left downwind for 18R
[TOWER]: Callsign
I'm thinking: "Callsign?" is that for me? did I forget to say my callsign? did he want my full callsign? I was confused, so I responded after a second or two:
[ME]: 1234F

Later when entering pattern:
[ME}: Podunk Tower, 1234F is left downwind for 18R and man we've got a heck of a crosswind up here.
[TOWER]: Cherokee 1234F Podunk Tower Roger winds are currently 210 at 13 gusts 20, runway 18R cleared to land
[ME]: 34F Roger, 18R cleared to land
[TOWER]: Callsign
[ME]: Okay I said "34F Roger, 18R cleared to land" I'll say it again though, at the end, 34F
[TOWER]: Thank you

I was a little agitated at this point, because he essentially called me out twice for what? I'm still not sure.

After landing all my responses were a little snippy with my callsign at the beginning and the end such as "34F Roger Taxi via Delta Alpha 34F"

So, what's the deal?
1. Is the pilot allowed to abbreviate the callsign after 2-way communication has been established? YES
2. Is the pilot required to use his callsign at the end of each transmission? NO, it can be at the beginning or the end.
3. AITA for being agitated about being improperly scolded? or
4. Am I missing something entirely?
Click to expand...

Two things.

1. You can only shorten your callsign with ATC once they have done so first. Probably a nit to pick, but that's the rule.
2. You are required to include your callsign on every transmission.
 
pburger said:
This past Saturday I was flying in to a Class D airport, and I got some unnecessary guidance on my phraseology from the tower (at least that's how I see it). The following is verbatim as verified by liveATC.net, with the names changed:

Initial call:
[ME]: Podunk Tower, Arrow 1234F
[TOWER]: Arrow 1234F, Podunk Tower
[ME]: Arrow 1234F 15 southeast, 4000 descending, with information X-ray, landing Podunk
[TOWER]: 1234F enter left downwind runway 18R.
[ME]: 34F Roger uh will enter left downwind for 18R
[TOWER]: Callsign
I'm thinking: "Callsign?" is that for me? did I forget to say my callsign? did he want my full callsign? I was confused, so I responded after a second or two:
[ME]: 1234F

Later when entering pattern:
[ME}: Podunk Tower, 1234F is left downwind for 18R and man we've got a heck of a crosswind up here.
[TOWER]: Cherokee 1234F Podunk Tower Roger winds are currently 210 at 13 gusts 20, runway 18R cleared to land
[ME]: 34F Roger, 18R cleared to land
[TOWER]: Callsign
[ME]: Okay I said "34F Roger, 18R cleared to land" I'll say it again though, at the end, 34F
[TOWER]: Thank you

I was a little agitated at this point, because he essentially called me out twice for what? I'm still not sure.

After landing all my responses were a little snippy with my callsign at the beginning and the end such as "34F Roger Taxi via Delta Alpha 34F"

So, what's the deal?
1. Is the pilot allowed to abbreviate the callsign after 2-way communication has been established? YES
2. Is the pilot required to use his callsign at the end of each transmission? NO, it can be at the beginning or the end.
3. AITA for being agitated about being improperly scolded? or
4. Am I missing something entirely?
Click to expand...
From the AIM, 4-2-4 (a)(2):


ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist.
 
Maybe not an AH... but I'm guessing the Tower was either just making a point OR MORE LIKELY do you remember the other planes on the radio? As has been stated, NO you may not shorten your Callsign unless ATC, Tower, etc., does it first. This may not be a big deal where you usually fly, but if you go into bigger metro areas, you will get corrected. (Was this a bigger Apt than you usually fly into?)

And I'm asking about who else was there because usually the reason they don't abbreviate your Callsign is because someone else on that Freq. has a similar one. Usually with the first incorrect shortening they'll say something liken "Arrow 1234F use your full Callsign, another aircraft on the frequency with a similar one." And if this is an Airport with a lot of training, you could just be pushing one of the Controller's BIG BUTTONS :D because the flight schools may have planes that all have similar Callsigns and it's an ongoing issue with the newbies.

As for the Callsign being at the beginning or end, officially it does not matter. But I've heard a LOT of Controllers say they prefer it at the end, that way they know if you're the one responding if part of the transmission gets blocked. This way if only the very first part of your long readback got blocked and they heard the rest, they can just have you confirm the small about that was blocked. If you said your Callsign first and that was part of what was blocked, they'd have to have you confirm the whole thing again.

And again, maybe not a TOTAL AH:p, but 99% of the time there is a reason the Controller's do what they do. Yes, you may have run across one of the few AHs in the Twr, but if so, just brush it off. If you haven't read the Pilot Controller Glossary, you should. Lots of good info that complements what is in the AIM, but from the Controller's point of view.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/PCG_Bsc_dtd_2-20-25_POST.pdf
 
Tower controller was being picky, but was right. You should use your call sign in every transmission so everyone knows the correct aircraft received the message.
 
manac said:
In 15 years I’ve never been chastised for shortening my callsign after first call.
Click to expand...
I think some pilots get a bit loose with using the abbreviated form of their call sign and it sounded like this particular controller wasn't having it that day. IME, non-fed class D tower controllers can be among the most prickly of the bunch with stuff like this.
 
Related question: is the N part of the call sign for radio purposes?
 
manac said:
In 15 years I’ve never been chastised for shortening my callsign after first call.
Click to expand...
Have you ever been at an airport with another airplane with the same last characters? This is one of those things that controllers often let slide except when it matters. But not abbreviating unless ATC does it first is the standard for dealing with ATC. It’s really not hard to do and only takes a whole extra second of airtime.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Related question: is the N part of the call sign for radio purposes?
Click to expand...
Same paragraph of the AIM:
Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.​
 
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So I had this rule backwards for years. I thought that ATC couldn't shorten it until I did. Fat, dumb, and happy, and eager to make life better for controllers, I would shorten my callsign at the first opportunity. Never got scolded, but I've since learned the error of my ways.

I definitely use the short version at uncontrolled airfields. Makes me a little crazy when someone says "podunk traffic, blue and white cessna blah blah blah". Dude, I can't see your damned plane, let alone what color it is. I *do* have ADSB in, so throw a brother a tail-number already to help me positively identify you.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Two things.

1. You can only shorten your callsign with ATC once they have done so first. Probably a nit to pick, but that's the rule.
2. You are required to include your callsign on every transmission.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is what I was taught 36 years ago and I operated under that assumption for 20 years or more. However, I don't believe that it's true. The AIM makes it clear that you must use the full call sign on initial contact, but there is nothing that I could find saying that ATC must abbreviate first. I'm not trying to be argumentative - if it is the rule, please show me - I would like to know. ***[EDIT - okay, Brad Z showed me in post #2 ]*** I'm a rules guy. In practice I hear people do it all the time and I started abbreviating my call sign after the initial contact years ago, and have never, ever been chastised. And this guy didn't say anything like "use your full callsign". He just said "callsign". He didn't even use my callsign when saying it. So that in itself was improper on his part.

As far as #2, I did use my callsign on every transmission. In fact, when he said it the first time I really thought I must've slipped and not used my callsign. I told my wife I must've gotten sloppy and not used my callsign. Well, I checked the tape, and there it was, my callsign, albeit abbreviated, which I contend is okay. [EDIT - I see the error of my ways - it's not okay]
 
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Gilbert Buettner said:
Tower controller was being picky, but was right. You should use your call sign in every transmission so everyone knows the correct aircraft received the message.
Click to expand...
I did use my callsign, but I abbreviated it. I still would like to see the rule that says I can't shorten it after initial contact.
 
Brad Z said:
I think some pilots get a bit loose with using the abbreviated form of their call sign and it sounded like this particular controller wasn't having it that day. IME, non-fed class D tower controllers can be among the most prickly of the bunch with stuff like this.
Click to expand...
Okay, for the purpose of argument, I'll stipulate that I shouldn't have abbreviated my callsign before controller. Okay fine. But his statement "CALLSIGN" without directing it to anyone, or even identifying himself is improper, too. I honestly thought it might have been someone in the peanut gallery chiming in, but my wife said it was the same guy (and she is always right). If the issue was the abbreviated callsign, he had two chances to tell me that. he didn't. and when I was on downwind and told him that I did use my callsign and that I would go ahead and say it again at the end, and then did, it was abbreviated. That would have been his chance to say, "I needed your full callsign" or some such. But he didn't. He said "Thank you". I'm not sure what he was looking for because he didn't clearly communicate what he thought I did in error. He simply said the word "Callsign". I still don't know what he was trying to tell me. I'll probably call over there and ask. I'd really like to know.
 
hhmmfff, I always thought it was after initial contact with ATC. ATC says your full tail #, you say your full tail #, after that shorten that puppy until the next controller, repeat.
 
M2C
1) Some controllers are snarky, almost all are not. Pick your battles. It's not personal, he/she doesn't know you, it's not a reflection on your pilot mojo.

2) Most - even if done snarkily - ask for things for a reason. Reason is usually not to have people run into each other. So I choose to give grace and put up with snarkiness - if it is indeed snarkiness - if it helps keep other airplane's paint off of my plane.

3) I always use the full call sign, and lean a bit to over emphasizing words and voice inflection. I figure it's in my best interest to error a wee bit in over communicating as it can't hurt and it could help.
 
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manac said:
In 15 years I’ve never been chastised for shortening my callsign after first call.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t mean you were doing it correctly. Just means those particular controllers don’t care enough to correct you. So I guess that’s the long way around to asking you what’s your point.
 
manac said:
I fly IFR in NY air space, jerk.

ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist.

There is nothing in that that says I have to wait for ATC. That is two different sentences and the two statements are not linked.
Click to expand...
Who are you calling a jerk?

Re-read the section of the AIM I linked. It describes ATC initiating an abbreviation, not the pilot. It also forbids using an abbreviated call sign when it could be confused with another call sign. Considering you don’t know who all is on the frequency, or for that matter other frequencies that the controller is working and you can’t hear, how can you assure thst without waiting for the controller to abbreviate your sign first?
 
pburger said:
Okay, for the purpose of argument, I'll stipulate that I shouldn't have abbreviated my callsign before controller. Okay fine. But his statement "CALLSIGN" without directing it to anyone, or even identifying himself is improper, too. I honestly thought it might have been someone in the peanut gallery chiming in, but my wife said it was the same guy (and she is always right). If the issue was the abbreviated callsign, he had two chances to tell me that. he didn't. and when I was on downwind and told him that I did use my callsign and that I would go ahead and say it again at the end, and then did, it was abbreviated. That would have been his chance to say, "I needed your full callsign" or some such. But he didn't. He said "Thank you". I'm not sure what he was looking for because he didn't clearly communicate what he thought I did in error. He simply said the word "Callsign". I still don't know what he was trying to tell me. I'll probably call over there and ask. I'd really like to know.
Click to expand...
Without you actually providing us a link to the liveATC link, I can’t really guess why he just blurted out “call sign”. I agree it’s a weird passive-aggressive way of insisting you use you full call sign. He could have simply said “November 1234F, please use your full call sign in your transmissions”.

This is worth another suggestion here: if you (inadvertently) initiate the abbreviation, and the controller doesn’t continue the practice, that’s a hint to revert to using the full call sign. As others mentioned, most controllers won’t say anything, but as a flight instructor, I always cringe when I hear pilots unilaterally abbreviate their call sign (or even omit it completely). Sounds like you found the guy who decided to be a Richard about it.
 
"34F" is not the correct way to abbreviate it either, even for when abbreviation is acceptable.
 
More often than I'd like I've used full callsign after the controller shortened it because they got it wrong, having to do it slowly a few times before they pick up on their error.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Related question: is the N part of the call sign for radio purposes?
Click to expand...
I used to fly an airplane with a 3-digit N-number. It wasn’t unusual to call center with, “XXX Center, Ramjet 8XX* Flight Level 410.”

“Calling XXX Center, say full callsign.”

“Ramjet NOVEMBER 8XX.”

*names have been changed to protect the guilty and not implicate the current operators of Ramjet 8XX.
 
Flying in and out of my Class Delta home base airport for over 3 decades I've spent time talking shop with various tower operators at social get-togethers at and around the airport. I've been told by more than a few controllers that the sound and cadence of the pilot's voice is also considered as a factor that helps identify the aircraft. I've been identified by my make and N number by a tower operator while conversing on the buffet line.

I'd bet the difference between hearing the full, or shortened call sign, and who initiates the shortened version probably means less than the sound of the pilot's voice, which remains the same on the radio regardless. Could be why the subject is not really nit-picked in the real world.
 
manac said:
I fly IFR in NY air space, jerk.
Click to expand...
That escalated quickly (and unnecessarily I might add).

I don't think @Brad Z was trying to call you out in particular even though he quoted your post. No need for name calling.

manac said:
ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist.

There is nothing in that that says I have to wait for ATC. That is two different sentences and the two statements are not linked.
Click to expand...
How do you explain the "in subsequent contacts" wording then? ATC initiates the abbreviation, pilot can use it after that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Same paragraph of the AIM!
Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.​
Click to expand...
A side trip here on the November is dropped when using the type, model or manufacturers name. When there is other than 5 digits, using both can avoid confusion. Controllers are used to, hearing 5 digits and 4 can throw them off. So, King Air November 1234 can get the message across right away that yeah, it’s just 1234
 
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Two other possibilities.

1. Sometimes controllers work more than one frequency. It may not be likely, but it is possible that another aircraft ending in 34F or something similar is on the other freq.

2. Sometimes there's some delay or drop, or "clipping" at the front end of a transmission that is a short delay between when you key up the mike and the sound is actually transmitted. I've experienced this in some of the many aircraft that I've flown.. Both places in your transcript where the controller said "callsign" it appears that you used your callsign first, and it's possible that on the controller's end, the callsign was "clipped" and the controller really didn't hear the N-number even though you said it.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Related question: is the N part of the call sign for radio purposes?
Click to expand...
Typically not *IF* you are flying in the US. Maybe some Canadian pilots can confirm if they use the C while in Canada (or pilots from other countries)?

Cherokee 123 is just fine, no need for Cherokee N123. Now if you go outside of your own country I'm not sure if it is "required" but it sure will help you if you use non standard terminology for them to know to cut you some slack and maybe even clue you in on how it's done there.
AvNavCom said:
I can't see your damned plane, let alone what color it is. I *do* have ADSB in, so throw a brother a tail-number already to help me positively identify you.
Click to expand...
That's why the AIM was changed years ago for you to use your N# and not a description.
 
manac said:
ATC specialists may initiate abbreviated call signs of other aircraft by using the prefix and the last three digits/letters of the aircraft identification after communications are established. The pilot may use the abbreviated call sign in subsequent contacts with the ATC specialist.

There is nothing in that that says I have to wait for ATC. That is two different sentences and the two statements are not linked.
Click to expand...
Not linked???? Ummm.... They follow each other in the same paragraph in the AIM. Yea, they very much are linked. And I didn't look it up, but I'm pretty sure you'll find the same language is in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Not sure why your Ground School or CFI didn't cover it 15 years ago... But it is very true that we pilot are not supposed to initiate shorting our call signs. That's all on ATC since there may very well be a plane with a similar call sign on a different frequency that we don't know about. One of the givens about flying... you learn something new every day.
 
pburger said:
but there is nothing that I could find saying that ATC must abbreviate first.
Click to expand...
It’s there. It’s guidance for the best way to communicate in the NAS. Another in a long list of standard phraseology.

I think it makes sense. You would be the incredibly rare pilot if you knew there was a N1234A, a N2234A, and a N3234A already being handled when you entered that sector for the first time with, “34A over WAYPT.”

But like pilots, some controllers are strange. I once flew into a towered airport where the controller used the first 3 characters rather than the last three. I called in with “Skyhawk 5157Z.” When Tower called, “Cessna 515” I had no idea who they were talking to.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
It’s there. It’s guidance for the best way to communicate in the NAS. Another in a long list if standard phraseology.

I think it makes sense. You would be the incredibly rare pilot if you knew there was a N1234A, a N2234A, and a N3234A already being handled when you entered that sector for the first time with, “34A over WAYPT.”

But like pilots, some controllers are strange. I once flew into a towered airport where the controller used the first 3 characters rather than the last three. I called in with “Skyhawk 5157Z.” When Tower called, “Cessna 515” I had no idea who they were talking to.
Click to expand...
This is a good perspective.

Pilots and controllers are all human. We are fallible.

I stopped tracking how often I’ve figured out I learned something the wrong way.

Fake it till ya make it.
 
I flew from Maine to Florida a few weeks ago. There was a 182 making the same flight and we were on exactly the same clearance through the New England/NY area. EVERY time she checked in with a new controller, she used an abbreviated call sign. EVERY controller replied with her full call sign and did it very slowly and deliberately. It was like fingers on a chalkboard. She was oblivious to the hints. To top it off, they asked her if she could take higher on the MA NH border. She refused and they then asked me. I said sure and up to 8k from 6. Pretty sure that was her slowly overtaking my 4 cylinder Archer vs her 6 cylinder 182. By going higher, I pretty much matched her speed. When we got to NY I knew I was going to get moved back down to 6 to get over JFK. Got asked my airspeed and so did she. She gave 10 knots more than me, so guess who got a penalty vector and descending 360.
I had to listen to the GD abbreviated call sign on check in until JAX as she made similar fuel stops to me.
 
I was about to cross a class D the other day. I tune in a few miles early only to hear the controller say the last three of my tail number, clearing me for a touch and go. ??!?!!?
He was talking to sbother aircraft with a similar tail #. You bet I was very intentional as I stated my # and intentions.
Surprisingly enough, he never issued any warnings to me or the other plane about similar callsigns, and a couple times he used abbreviated callsigns when talking to us. Since we were flying different profiles, there was no real confusion about who was on 1st, but I still made sure to reply with my full callsign.
 
Hang 4 said:
She gave 10 knots more than me, so guess who got a penalty vector and descending 360.
I had to listen to the GD abbreviated call sign on check in until JAX as she made similar fuel stops to me.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're talking about an ex-wife.
 
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