Air India 787 Crashes in Western India

dmspilot said:
Which 121 accidents remain unsolved which a camera would have solved?

More information is not useful information. Perhaps you're being unintentionally obtuse.
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Atlas air 2019 and the Ethiopian and Lion Air MAX crashes, among others, per the NTSB. I’m gonna believe them, you know the people who actually do the work, over some guy on the internet.

www.flightglobal.com

NTSB again calls for cockpit video recorders

The US National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB) long-running quest to have video cameras installed in aircraft cockpits continues, with the agency again recommending that regulators require the recorders.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

I don’t buy the pilot privacy argument. While I’m a very large advocate of worker rights, in no other workplace do you generally have the expectation of privacy as an employee, outside of obvious areas like the bathroom. Companies monitor computer assets heavily, record office and shop spaces on security cameras, sometimes search bags and use metal detectors for people coming in and out. Why is a pilot in a cockpit at work any different?

Not to mention there can be legal protections put in place for such footage. You don’t have airlines pulling CVR tapes routinely looking for people bad mouthing the C suite now do we?
 
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AKiss20 said:
Atlas air 2019 and the Ethiopian and Lion Air MAX crashes, among others, per the NTSB. I’m gonna believe them, you know the people who actually do the work, over some guy on the internet.

www.flightglobal.com

NTSB again calls for cockpit video recorders

The US National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB) long-running quest to have video cameras installed in aircraft cockpits continues, with the agency again recommending that regulators require the recorders.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
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Yeah but who are you going to believe, the NTSB or the unions?

runwaygirlnetwork.com

ALPA opposes cockpit video recorders despite continued NTSB push -

ALPA opposes the installation of cockpit video recorders in commercial aircraft, despite the NTSB's continued push for such tech.
runwaygirlnetwork.com runwaygirlnetwork.com
 
AKiss20 said:
...I’m gonna believe them, you know the people who actually do the work, over some guy on the internet.
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Y'know, there are people (plural) contributing to this thread that do or have done "the work." They don't all agree. Believe it or not.

Nauga,
SGOTI
 
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It's useful information for the NTSB, but I don't see how it makes anything safer. I personally wouldn't care as long as they treat it like the CVR, but as always in this industry, who is gonna pay for it? Money is ultimately the reason these things don't happen. I still can't get reliable wifi on my flight deck after a decade after it was installed, and I fly a long range airplane. Inflight weather would help me tremendously, but I'm still flying around with nothing more than a snapshot of what the weather was doing 15 hours ago. Why? Because a repeater costs 3M per airframe.
 
kyleb said:
No doubt. And that would be a good thing to know. But I don't think it'll help prevent the next physical mistake or suicide/mass murder via airplane.
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Ed Haywood said:
Might tell us who.
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I haven't read the entire report but the time difference between switch activations could be a good indicator. It's my experience that pilots select the switch closest to their seat first then move to the second switch. Thus, if #1 was shut down first=Captain, if #2 was first=F/O.
 
kyleb said:
No doubt. And that would be a good thing to know. But I don't think it'll help prevent the next physical mistake or suicide/mass murder via airplane.
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Let's unpack that a bit.

Right now we do not know for sure if it was a mistake or deliberate. Knowing which has important implications for preventing a repeat occurrence. In the absence of further evidence, that will be an informed guess.

Let's say it was deliberate. Knowing who did it would be the starting point in a forensic investigation, which might uncover psychological indicators that were missed, leading to safety policy improvements.

Hypothetically, let's say the FO had been struggling with mental health but had not sought treatment due to job implications. Or say he had a history of taking a medication with a track record of causing mental health issues, like Accutane.

Knowing conclusively who did it would cut the forensic investigation in half, increasing the odds of uncovering useful information on why he did it. That might help catch the next one.

Just my opinion as SGOTI.
 
kayoh190 said:
Inflight weather would help me tremendously, but I'm still flying around with nothing more than a snapshot of what the weather was doing 15 hours ago. Why? Because a repeater costs 3M per airframe.
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SRSLY? Wow, I am surprised by this.
 
RyanB said:
SRSLY? Wow, I am surprised by this.
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Probably because it needs to be certified and so on …. I cannot imagine an electronic component ( which ultimately is not aviation specific as none of them are ) can cost that much money …
 
Which with will a pilot do first?

View the demo on reddit. That guy did the far one first.
 
Warmi said:
Not to mention the explicit question “ why did you do it ?” … obviously, the other guy saw him turn it off.
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I don't think it implies that he saw the other guy turn them off. I obviously don't know, but think it could've gone like this: One pilot realizes he's loosing power, either by feel or gauge. He does a quick flow to see what might be wrong, and see that the switches are on cutoff. He knows HE didn't do that, and there's nobody else up front and those switches had to be up to get up in the air, they didn't switch on their own, so he knows the other pilot did it. After switching them back on, he doesn't have anything else to do but hope for a miracle and ask the other guy why he did that.

To me that seems more likely than him seeing it, but that's based on the location of the switches.

Another option is that the pilot who made the comment was the one that turned them off, and made the comment either because he really didn't think he did it, or because he realized he did it but wanted to blame someone else. I'm just bringing this up to point out that one of them stating something doesn't necessarily mean it's what happened. That may be unusual, but this whole thing is unusual.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't think it implies that he saw the other guy turn them off. I obviously don't know, but think it could've gone like this: One pilot realizes he's loosing power, either by feel or gauge. He does a quick flow to see what might be wrong, and see that the switches are on cutoff. He knows HE didn't do that, and there's nobody else up front and those switches had to be up to get up in the air, they didn't switch on their own, so he knows the other pilot did it. After switching them back on, he doesn't have anything else to do but hope for a miracle and ask the other guy why he did that.

To me that seems more likely than him seeing it, but that's based on the location of the switches.

Another option is that the pilot who made the comment was the one that turned them off, and made the comment either because he really didn't think he did it, or because he realized he did it but wanted to blame someone else. I'm just bringing this up to point out that one of them stating something doesn't necessarily mean it's what happened. That may be unusual, but this whole thing is unusual.
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Yeah, this is not looking good guys, this might be another MAX type flaw, but this time with the fuel control. There's a interesting point brought up by few indian pilots on this video at 14:00.
The point is that the gear didn't go up even though many seconds passed between lift off and the cut-off, so that means there was something wrong.

btw, what happened with that 787 engine shutdown incident years agon in Japan?
 
popPilot said:
Yeah, this is not looking good guys, this might be another MAX type flaw, but this time with the fuel control. There's a interesting point brought up by few indian pilots on this video at 14:00.
The point is that the gear didn't go up even though many seconds passed between lift off and the cut-off, so that means there was something wrong.

btw, what happened with that 787 engine shutdown incident years agon in Japan?
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This is the conclusion you have drawn from the AAIB prelim report?
 
Is there evidence to suggest this was intentional? Juan Brown seemed to imply a bumpy ride with a hand guarding the throttle could inadvertently hit those switches - if the locking mechanism was janky.

"Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec"

I'm curious: if the locking mechanism is functioning properly does that time gap between E1 & E2 sound correct for manually throwing both? Sounds a bit fast to me, but I've never touched one.
 
popPilot said:
Yeah, this is not looking good guys, this might be another MAX type flaw, but this time with the fuel control. There's a interesting point brought up by few indian pilots on this video at 14:00.
The point is that the gear didn't go up even though many seconds passed between lift off and the cut-off, so that means there was something wrong.

btw, what happened with that 787 engine shutdown incident years agon in Japan?
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Really ?
 
Hengelo said:
Is there evidence to suggest this was intentional? Juan Brown seemed to imply a bumpy ride with a hand guarding the throttle could inadvertently hit those switches - if the locking mechanism was janky.

"Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec"

I'm curious: if the locking mechanism is functioning properly does that time gap between E1 & E2 sound correct for manually throwing both? Sounds a bit fast to me, but I've never touched one.
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You can’t inadvertently hit the fuel cutoff switches. Not sure what that guy is talking about
 
jordane93 said:
You can’t inadvertently hit the fuel cutoff switches. Not sure what that guy is talking about
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Juan is getting gun shy from calling out things that seem obvious. He had to retract previous statements made on another accident by threat of lawsuits.
 
Hengelo said:
Is there evidence to suggest this was intentional? Juan Brown seemed to imply a bumpy ride with a hand guarding the throttle could inadvertently hit those switches - if the locking mechanism was janky.

"Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec"

I'm curious: if the locking mechanism is functioning properly does that time gap between E1 & E2 sound correct for manually throwing both? Sounds a bit fast to me, but I've never touched one.
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Juan just got a letter from a lawyer for stating obvious things in his video. I think he will refrain from pointing in one direction on another. He said we will have to see which one it is
 
Here’s a close up (best I could do) of the switches in question. You can see there’s a significant lip that the switch has to be pulled out to clear. Maybe 1/8-3/16”. And the spring tension is relatively high pulling the switch. I’d say it’s pretty difficult, if not near impossible to activate the switches inadvertently. IMG_5082.jpeg

IMG_5086.jpeg
 
Hengelo said:
I'm curious: if the locking mechanism is functioning properly does that time gap between E1 & E2 sound correct for manually throwing both? Sounds a bit fast to me, but I've never touched one.
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Sounds about right when I shut down the engines. Maybe a little faster if doing a dual engine flameout in the sim, but in that case they'll go right back on.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Here’s a close up (best I could do) of the switches in question. You can see there’s a significant lip that the switch has to be pulled out to clear. Maybe 1/8-3/16”. And the spring tension is relatively high pulling the switch. I’d say it’s pretty difficult, if not near impossible to activate the switches inadvertently. View attachment 142822

View attachment 142823
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Maybe this has been mentioned before - are these emergency switches or are they used as part of normal operations?
 
Sluggo63 said:
View attachment 142823
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See those guarded Stab switches to the left of the Fuel cutoff switches? There was a "STAB POS XDCR" (Stabilizer Position Transducer) warning light that was squawked by the previous crew on the last flight leg. All these are on the same panel, it looks like. I wonder if mechanics had the panel removed to troubleshoot the stab problem.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Here’s a close up (best I could do) of the switches in question. You can see there’s a significant lip that the switch has to be pulled out to clear. Maybe 1/8-3/16”. And the spring tension is relatively high pulling the switch. I’d say it’s pretty difficult, if not near impossible to activate the switches inadvertently. View attachment 142822

View attachment 142823
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There are 2 detents on each lever. If bumping them accidentally were enough to go to cutoff, then wouldn’t all four of those points show signs of damage or wear?

I haven’t looked at the pics in the report closely enough to see what they show.

Edit: the picture I saw wasn’t clear enough.
 
Sam D said:
Maybe this has been mentioned before - are these emergency switches or are they used as part of normal operations?
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In normal operation they are used to start the engines and then they are used to shut down the engines at the end of the flight.
 
Interesting turn of of information in the preliminary. Suicides by mentally deranged people who want to take innocent groups of people along with them for a ride in the afterlife are (fortunately) not common, but do happen. Seems a large percentage of mass shootings of innocents (followed by a ritualist suicide of the perpetrator) allegedly have psychotropic meds as a common denominator. Background information on the personal lives of the pilots may be revealing (or not).
 
Just watched Juan's video. Thought he did a nice job of laying out the timeline. Interesting about the SAIB for the locking mechanism on those switches that was ignored. Considering the mx issues with the rest of the plane, could be those switches were worn out and just got accidentally bumped off.
 
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