A&P career Vs ATP

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Tony R

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My son and I were at my club's range and a friend who's opinion I greatly respect told my son to not only get his pilot's license but to get his A&P and IA. He said his A&P owns the maintenance facility and makes an incredible living and sleeps in own bed every night.

My friend is the chief pilot for a privately owned Cessna Sovereign, who does pretty well for himself, too

Has anyone else seen A&Ps having such opportunities or is this a local phenomena?

Of course it is up to my 14 year old son on what he wants to do. Just looking to get the tribes opinion on this.
 
“Incredible living” is quite open to interpretation. The A&Ps in my organization make about half of what the pilots do comparing straight time to straight time. As far as I know, we are competitive for top pay on both.

Im sure there are some A&Ps that own a small business and make bank. I haven't met any.
 
Yes, plenty of guys around that are examples of this. Close to my area I would say look up Morristown flying services in Tennessee. The guy who started it has an aircraft maintenance hangar, he restored a few c-172, c-152 type training aircraft which he rents out at a couple airports in the area, he's instructed at a local a&p school, etc.
 
Bacho said:
“Incredible living” is quite open to interpretation. The A&Ps in my organization make about half of what the pilots do comparing straight time to straight time. As far as I know, we are competitive for top pay on both.

Im sure there are some A&Ps that own a small business and make bank. I haven't met any.
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I understand that the guy who works for someone may not make an incredible living, I'm talking about owning a maintenance shop. He will get his hours working with someone for a few years but the goal is to own his own shop. We emphasize entrepreneurship in our family.
 
Why not do both? When times are tough, hiring-wise, the commercial pilot applicant with an A&P certificate will rise to the top of the stack…particularly for entry level jobs or anything in Alaska.

In the chase for dollars, the A&P will have to build a business and hire other mechanics in order to ever match the income of senior mainline 121 captains.
 
Tony R said:
Has anyone else seen A&Ps having such opportunities or is this a local phenomena?
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Yes. But it can be location dependent for various reasons. However, with the right drive and experience even location issues can be dealt with given the nature of the industry. For some context, I know more mechanics than pilots who retired early. Perhaps get your son a discovery flight in an airplane and helicopter, then see if the shop owner will allow your son to spend some time on the hangar floor turning a wrench or two to see where his interest is?
 
Brad Z said:
Why not do both? When times are tough, hiring-wise, the commercial pilot applicant with an A&P certificate will rise to the top of the stack…particularly for entry level jobs or anything in Alaska.
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:yeahthat:
Having another skill set in your back pocket is not a bad idea, independent of career path.
 
I have a nephew who recently got an A&P. I was amazed at how quick and relatively inexpensive the training was. 18 months of community college tuition, passed his exams, and was immediately hired by the local MRO to work on Falcons. I think he's making in the $30/hr range to start. Not amazing money, but with no debt and just starting out, not bad.

Another graduate of the same program works at the local shop I take my plane to. He does a fair bit of moonlighting, and has gotten some really cool opportunities, like flying around with the owner of a Beech 18 he helps to maintain. He also has the opportunity to fly the company Archer for the price of gas, which makes pursuing the pilot path much more affordable.

The road to get to big money flying professionally is long & hard, but it is one of the few places you can make really good money working for someone else. For an A&P to make the same kind of living he's going to have to build his own business. I think there's a lot of opportunity for that these days, but it's not easy and not without risk. He'll also need to pay his dues for a few years to build some experience.

I think it really comes down to where his passion is. Either way there's going to be a lot of dues to pay to get to "making a great living".
 
Ed Haywood said:
I'll take another tack. Having your A&P makes you a better pilot, because you understand the systems. Having an A&P also facilitates building hours by saving money maintaining your own plane.
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I’d qualify that statement…it CAN make you a better pilot. I’ve known a few pilot/mechanics who get too engrossed in the systems while flying and get behind.
 
I guess it boils down to do you want to turn wrenches or do you want to fly?

Auto mechanics that own their own shops probably do as well as A&P’s that own their own shops.
 
The only A&P/IA I know that ran their own shop made more money “managing” Cirrus aircraft for owners than they did doing actual A&P work. The A&P did not have any pilot’s license.

For a small* monthly fee, databases were kept up to date, AD lists were updated, and various sundry things were taken care of. IIRC, oil changes (labor) were baked in and consumables were billed.

Most of the owners were either small partnerships or planes on leaseback. The 100-hrs and annuals were billed as well.
 
Tony R said:
I understand that the guy who works for someone may not make an incredible living, I'm talking about owning a maintenance shop. He will get his hours working with someone for a few years but the goal is to own his own shop. We emphasize entrepreneurship in our family.
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Well. I don’t have the IA but I did earn an A&P along the way. I currently work as a narrow body captain at a legacy airline.

There is no right answer. It’s up to your son to decide what he wants out of life.

Owning a maintenance facility is a real path. I have a good friend that runs a maintenance facility, avionics shop and FBO. His flying career peaked as a Gulfstream pilot at a 135 operator before he fully committed to the business ownership track. He still flys occasionally as a contract pilot part 91. The business is stable and doesn’t require him to be there 100% of the time but he is never really off. He’s always plugged in and aware of what’s happening at the airport. Part of the deal if you own a business.

In contrast to that when I’m not at work I have no friggin idea what’s going on. It’s someone else’s turn to deal with it all.

Which ones better? Depends on who you ask. We are both comfortable and able to provide emotionally and materially to our family. Neither one of us have much to complain about.
 
I misread OP thought his son wanted a airline flying job as opposed to just a PPL. My son is in college now pursuing a airline job. Will he end up a airline pilot? That’s to be seen.
He entered having PPL. Just had a job fair at school and the recruiters told him they are looking for 1500 hours even though he is planning to qualify for a ATP restricted.
I believe it’s all about timing and being qualified. Going for a A&P also is just too time consuming. That’s all.
 
Does your son want to be the guy that writes up that the lav is plugged up in the logbook then gets in his car and goes home, or does he want to be the guy that puts the rubber gloves on and goes spelunking in said lav?
 
bonefishpete said:
I guess it boils down to do you want to turn wrenches or do you want to fly?

Auto mechanics that own their own shops probably do as well as A&P’s that own their own shops.
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And probably more importantly, which one are you GOOD at doing. Keep in mind being good at 121 flying isn’t the same as being a good pilot. To make good 121 capt money, you gotta get a good 121 capt job… which requires a bit of good luck with respect to timing and a few other factors.

Also, being a good mechanic isn’t the same as being a good business owner, which you’re gonna have to be to make really good money as a mechanic.

All things equal, the mechanic job is more reliable. Making usable pilots is far easier than making good mechanics. Planes are getting easier to fly and harder to fix.
 
Groundpounder said:
Does your son want to be the guy that writes up that the lav is plugged up in the logbook then gets in his car and goes home, or does he want to be the guy that puts the rubber gloves on and goes spelunking in said lav?
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He wants to be the guy that owns the company that employees the guy who goes spelunking, but in order to be a good owner, you need to have done those jobs. We understand you don't get there overnight. This is a 10-15 year plan, so we need to chunk it.


1) pilot license - I will buy him a plane and he can get his hours in that plane.

2) go to A&P school- we are very very fortunate to have a friend that owns a shop. Not just a piston GA shop, they work on high-end Corp jets. He is my son's mentor.
 
Tony R said:
2) go to A&P school- we are very very fortunate to have a friend that owns a shop. Not just a piston GA shop, they work on high-end Corp jets. He is my son's mentor.
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In which case he will probably have exposure to the flying jobs that don’t require an ATP to start, too.
 
Tony R said:
we are very very fortunate to have a friend that owns a shop. Not just a piston GA shop, they work on high-end Corp jets. He is my son's mentor.
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Or, he could work summers, etc. at your friend's shop and document his tasks and work experiences in a manner the local FSDO maintenance ASI will accept per Part 65.77 and when he turns 18 simply go take his A&P tests. A lot of mechanics have obtained their certificates in manner to include me.

And speaking of mentors, my mentors always told me while being a pilot and a mechanic is doable, they both require extensive time and experience to be proficient at each. So you can either be a great pilot and a good mechanic or be a great mechanic and a good pilot. Just something for your son to keep in mind.
 
A person that enjoys and is good at A&P work probably isn't the right temperament to be an airline pilot, and vice versa. A&P/bush pilot can be a logical match, though.

Another viable niche for an A&P might be focusing on repair and restoration of old planes, if he can find a mentor... there are far too few mechanics nowadays with welding, wood, and fabric skills.
 
ATP is the least impressive of all certs… MEI is the scariest… PPL and CFI mean a lot and are hard.

This situation is a no brainer. Work for the shop owner mentor, and buy him a plane to fly. The correct path for him, which will be somewhere between A and C (the who knows WHAT road), will make itself known. In the meantime, he will have the tools and exposure he needs to make a more educated decision.

Next problem please!!
 
The only people in aviation making money are the ones selling it.
 
Ownership of a profitable shop, and good at turning wrenches are not related skills.

Have your son wrench at your friends shop, and volunteer evenings on the paperwork, so that he learns the management side of the business. That is the critical skill for the path to owning. Is Dad's bank going to fund the startup costs of a standalone shop when the time comes?

Airline may have higher cost/time requirements to get in, but they have built in retirement plans and medical plans.

14 year old's do not yet really know what career they will be happiest with. Both my sons made dramatic changes in their desired career plans after graduating from high school. Both changed again over the next 10 years.
 
Tony R said:
He wants to be the guy that owns the company that employees the guy who goes spelunking, but in order to be a good owner, you need to have done those jobs. We understand you don't get there overnight. This is a 10-15 year plan, so we need to chunk it.


1) pilot license - I will buy him a plane and he can get his hours in that plane.

2) go to A&P school- we are very very fortunate to have a friend that owns a shop. Not just a piston GA shop, they work on high-end Corp jets. He is my son's mentor.
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Well that changes the whole story. That’s not available to everyone.
 
Tony R said:
He wants to be the guy that owns the company that employees the guy who goes spelunking,….
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No ATP required.

Tony R said:
….
1) pilot license - I will buy him a plane and he can get his hours in that plane.
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But a commercial certificate could be handy.

Tony R said:
….
2) go to A&P school- we are very very fortunate to have a friend that owns a shop. Not just a piston GA shop, they work on high-end Corp jets. He is my son's mentor.
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After school / weekends / summers are a great time to (l)earn the ropes.
 
There's no harm in posing the question and getting opinions, and it's not a bad idea to get him exposure to both the mechanical side of things and flying, but I would not place any serious faith that he pursues those paths unless he shows a strong, sustained personal interest in it. A lot of these interests are exploratory and fleeting at that age. Frankly, speaking from my own personal journey, putting much stock in any of these paths is probably "premature optimization" for a 14 year old.

For myself, I went from thinking I'd do music recording from 13-17, to military 18, back to music business/entrepreneurship at 19, to being a chemist (~20-21) to finance (22+). I benefited a lot from my parents not being too invested in one particular career path for me.

But hey, getting a pilots license and learning how to work on things are two skills I highly doubt he'll ever regret having! So no harm in at least exploring them.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
For myself, I went from thinking I'd do music recording from 13-17, to military 18, back to music business/entrepreneurship at 19, to being a chemist (~20-21) to finance (22+). I benefited a lot from my parents not being too invested in one particular career path for me.
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At least you didn't have to figure out your almost irreversible educational path and therefore limit your career options at age 10 or 12, as you would have in e.g. Germany ;)
 
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