A&P career Vs ATP

EvilEagle said:
Get the A&P! I’m working on mine now as an airline pilot & business owner and I REALLY wish I had done it when I had nothing better to do but study and go to class.
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What path are you taking while working full time?
 
There is a pretty decent shop at GPM that is run by an airline pilot who is also an IA. I’d totally go for it if I had the time and was in that position.
 
Going to a Part 147 AnP school doesn't make you a mechanic. It just filters out the truly dumb people. What makes you a good mechanic is working on planes and fixing things.

In 121 world having an AnP is COMPLETELY USELESS. Your company will not allow you to sign off for RTS as you don't have ANY training they require.

Maybe 135 is a little looser, but I don't see an pilot carrying the tools to do any significant repair to an AOG. Heck even changing a tire requires a tire, a jack and Nitrogen... those things are generally not carried on board.

At my work, a wet ink ATP is making $130+/hr and a wet ink AnP starts at $28 ($34 with certificates).

If you want money, be a pilot at a 121. If you want to work nights, get doused in 5056, Skydrol and Jet A, be a mechanic.

If you want to be RICH hire pilots and mechanics to work for you.
 
EvilEagle said:
Get the A&P! I’m working on mine now as an airline pilot & business owner and I REALLY wish I had done it when I had nothing better to do but study and go to class.
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Do you mean Part 121 airline?

Um... how do you keep your AnP certificate current? Did you go to a GenFam class (kind of a type certificate for AnPs)?

Pt 91 charter I can see being an AnP and Commerical pilot... but harder to see how 121/135 would allow it.
 
pfarber said:
Do you mean Part 121 airline?

Um... how do you keep your AnP certificate current? Did you go to a GenFam class (kind of a type certificate for AnPs)?

Pt 91 charter I can see being an AnP and Commerical pilot... but harder to see how 121/135 would allow it.
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I think you are missing the point.

Some people (airline guys in this example) don't get their A&P to work on company airplanes, they are doing this for themselves (aircraft owner).

As far as Part 135, I used my A&P several times while flying 135. It's not difficult.
 
Bacho said:
The A&Ps in my organization make about half of what the pilots do comparing straight time to straight time.
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You're 100% not at a legacy

Every major starts 1st yr FOs at over $110k

AnPs start at $30.

Most regional are similar.
 
MauleSkinner said:
$62,400 isn’t “about half” of “over $110k”?
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iu
 
Doc Holliday said:
I think you are missing the point.

Some people (airline guys in this example) don't get their A&P to work on company airplanes, they are doing this for themselves (aircraft owner).

As far as Part 135, I used my A&P several times while flying 135. It's not difficult.
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It all comes down to the 135/121 Certificate owner and what they submitted to the FAA as to its documentation.

I don't know of any 121 that allows what you are saying. 135s? Maybe, I guess. Its up to them. But now you have to keep a pilot trained in tech ops AND flight ops.

As for ATPs and AnP... sure but from talking to many many many pilots very very very few fly outside of work. I think ATPs buy airplanes becuase they have nothing else to do with all the money they make. Captain pay is no joke after 5 years. Wide body senior captain pay is rediculious.
 
pfarber said:
It all comes down to the 135/121 Certificate owner and what they submitted to the FAA as to its documentation.
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Correct.
pfarber said:
I don't know of any 121 that allows what you are saying.
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So a Part 121 can prohibit a pilot from obtaining his A&P for his personal use?

pfarber said:
135s? Maybe, I guess. Its up to them. But now you have to keep a pilot trained in tech ops AND flight ops.
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When I flew 135 it was just a matter of filing out some paperwork that gave me permission to use my A&P on company aircraft. If we were on the road and had a problem that wasn't MEL deferable I could do the inspection to determine the aircraft was safe for flight, they would send a ferry permit and we could move the airplane to another airport to have it repaired by a shop. (just one example)

pfarber said:
As for ATPs and AnP... sure but from talking to many many many pilots very very very few fly outside of work.
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I've been a professional pilot the majority of my life. I flew with and know many professional pilots that hold both ATP and A&P and many own an airplane they maintain. The professional pilots on this board are largely GA pilots as well.

pfarber said:
I think ATPs buy airplanes becuase they have nothing else to do with all the money they make.
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LOL, that's a good one. :rofl:

pfarber said:
Captain pay is no joke after 5 years. Wide body senior captain pay is rediculious.
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Yep, been there/done that. 26 years worth.

But what does that have to do with an ATP wanting an A&P for his personal use?
 
pfarber said:
As for ATPs and AnP... sure but from talking to many many many pilots very very very few fly outside of work.
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Well the "many" professional pilots I've known and worked with fly outside of work. So I guess it depends where you are or who you know? For example, my mentor who taught me about Super Cubs retired as a 777 pilot and had rebuilt over 30 Cubs since he was 16.
 
Doc Holliday said:
iu
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The hours to hours comparison doens't work when all you do is divide.

The 1st year FO is working (75 * 12) = 900 hours (they get a min pay no matter the actual flight time)

While that 1st year AnP is working (52*40) 2080 hours a year. Actually the AnP is getting less money as holiday pay/comp time doesn't pay differential, specilization or certificate pay. Only strait wage.

2080 / 900 so a FO is workin 1/3rd the hours for more than double the pay.


Clearer?
 
pfarber said:
The hours to hours comparison doens't work when all you do is divide.

The 1st year FO is working (75 * 12) = 900 hours (they get a min pay no matter the actual flight time)

While that 1st year AnP is working (52*40) 2080 hours a year. Actually the AnP is getting less money as holiday pay/comp time doesn't pay differential, specilization or certificate pay. Only strait wage.

2080 / 900 so a FO is workin 1/3rd the hours for more than double the pay.


Clearer?
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What about the duty hours that FO puts in to get the flight hour pay? That use to be like a 3 to 1 IIRC.

You're doing an apples to bowling ball comparison here.
 
FWIW - I just sent in my application to a local tech college for their A&P program. They have 24 slots in the next class, and I'll know if November if I get in. It would start in January 2026, 4:30 - 10:00 pm Monday - Thursday for two years (summers included). Doing it as a retired guy looking for something to do, will work on own plane, maybe other things later on. Maybe open simple rigging shop, work part time at a local shop, maybe be a teaching assistant, who knows. Suggestions are welcome.

Another POV. I went to the Cessna legacy 182 maintenance class put on by Cessna Pilots a few months back. The instructor has a nice shop, been doing this business for many years. His take is that he'd rather hire someone who didn't go to a tech school but rather take on an apprentice who would get the needed hours in the shop to take the test. That way he'd get someone who can use a screwdriver.

I interpret this to be similar to getting a PPL. Getting it means you're good enough to continue training without an instructor sign off. For an A&P license, it probably means you're good enough to go learn things. But you're not going to fly a 737 as a new PPL, and you're not going to install an engine in a 737 as a new A&P.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Correct.

So a Part 121 can prohibit a pilot from obtaining his A&P for his personal use?
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Thats not what you said. You said you used your AnP for a 135 operator. Lets keep the goalposts from moving:
"As far as Part 135, I used my A&P several times while flying 135. It's not difficult."



Doc Holliday said:
When I flew 135 it was just a matter of filing out some paperwork that gave me permission to use my A&P on company aircraft. If we were on the road and had a problem that wasn't MEL deferable I could do the inspection to determine the aircraft was safe for flight, they would send a ferry permit and we could move the airplane to another airport to have it repaired by a shop. (just one example)
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As I said if the 135 Certificate holder allows it, it possible. I don't know of a 121 that does.
"It all comes down to the 135/121 Certificate owner and what they submitted to the FAA as to its documentation."

Doc Holliday said:
I've been a professional pilot the majority of my life. I flew with and know many professional pilots that hold both ATP and A&P and many own an airplane they maintain. The professional pilots on this board are largely GA pilots as well.


LOL, that's a good one. :rofl:


Yep, been there/done that. 26 years worth.

But what does that have to do with an ATP wanting an A&P for his personal use?
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Ok, how many? list them. how many do you know? lets have a number so we can do the math.. all the people you know vs all 131 flight crews. I've talked to a lot of ATPs and most, like 90% don't fly for personal use. Is that ALL OF THEM? No, never siad that. We both have differnet experiences.. so what?
 
pfarber said:
Thats not what you said. You said you used your AnP for a 135 operator. Lets keep the goalposts from moving:
"As far as Part 135, I used my A&P several times while flying 135. It's not difficult."

As I said if the 135 Certificate holder allows it, it possible. I don't know of a 121 that does.
"It all comes down to the 135/121 Certificate owner and what they submitted to the FAA as to its documentation."
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OK, so you don't know the difference between 135 and 121. They are not one in the same.
pfarber said:
Ok, how many? list them. how many do you know? lets have a number so we can do the math.. all the people you know vs all 131 flight crews. I've talked to a lot of ATPs and most, like 90% don't fly for personal use. Is that ALL OF THEM? No, never siad that. We both have differnet experiences.. so what?
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So your lack of knowledge and experience is showing (once again). You've been in this aviation business for what, 2 years? How many pilots do you talk to working on the floor of a maintenance hangar? For ONE airline?

My point is (once again) you are making assumptions based upon nothing.

Next?
 
Doc Holliday said:
What about the duty hours that FO puts in to get the flight hour pay? That use to be like a 3 to 1 IIRC.

You're doing an apples to bowling ball comparison here.
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So you're saying a works 30 hours a day? lol you're funny. I know the pay doesn't start until the door shuts.. but its not a significant amount of time.

There's not to much paperwork at a 121. Dispatchers are a thing.

No, just not sure why you think flight crews have it hard.
 
pfarber said:
So you're saying a works 30 hours a day? lol you're funny. I know the pay doesn't start until the door shuts.. but its not a significant amount of time.
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Really?

So when does the pilot have to show up for the trip? Just as the door shuts? And when he completes the first leg of a multi leg trip, does he exit the plane first and go to another gate just as the door shuts?

So let's say he has a 2 leg trip day. It pays 2 hours of flight time. Pilot shows up to dispatch an hour to an Hour and a half before departure. Gets the paperwork, reviews and gets with the crew. Goes down to the gate and preflights, sets the plane up, reviews the maintenance log and prepares for passengers.

1 Hour flight. Lands, makes any write ups necessary and departs the airplane. Next flight is 3 hours from now. Is that pilot off?

In 2 hours the pilot goes to dispatch, gets paperwork, briefs the crew and goes to the gate. Preflight, sets the plane up, reviews the maintenance log and prepares for passengers.

1 hour flight. Lands, makes any write ups necessary and departs the plane. That takes 30 minutes.

Question: Although the pilot was paid for 2 hours, how many hours did he just spend (duty) in order to make that two hour flight pay? (hint: 7+ hours)

( To be fair, many airlines have trip/duty rigs in place, I'm trying to simplify this for someone that doesn't know how any of this works)

pfarber said:
There's not to much paperwork at a 121. Dispatchers are a thing.
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Do the crews review that paperwork of just sign the dotted line and go? Do the crews make changes to that paperwork? Do those changes require additional calculations and considerations?
pfarber said:
No, just not sure why you think flight crews have it hard.
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No one said they have it hard. But you being a novice can't comprehend what their job entails, I get it.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So your lack of knowledge and experience is showing (once again). You've been in this aviation business for what, 2 years? How many pilots do you talk to working on the floor of a maintenance hangar? For ONE airline?
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Personal attacks against someone you don't know isn't a good look.

My aviation adventure started in early 80s at Coleman Army Airfield in West Germany.

Try not to get to frustrated, it can be hard to accept that there are people out there that surpass your experiences.

Since this certian folks are taking this way to personal I'm gonna let the other kids play.
 
pfarber said:
Personal attacks against someone you don't know isn't a good look.
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How is that a personal attack? You have cited your recent experience obtaining an A&P and your recent (2 years?) as working for an airline maintenance facility. You also have cited having other careers leading up to this. There's nothing wrong with that, but you keep getting in over your head on discussions where you have little to no demonstrated knowledge of the subject.
pfarber said:
My aviation adventure started in early 80s at Coleman Army Airfield in West Germany.
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Adventure?

How about the ones of us that our CAREER started at that same time frame (not counting 4 years of military service in aviation)

Big difference between "adventure" and "career".
pfarber said:
Try not to get to frustrated, it can be hard to accept that there are people out there that surpass your experiences.
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I know lots of them (although the number is shrinking with age).

But I can say with certainty you are not one of them. Not. Even. Close.
pfarber said:
Since this certian folks are taking this way to personal I'm gonna let the other kids play.
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Have fun.
 
The trouble here is that pfarber started in Germany, and is Metric, Doc started in USA and is SAE. Those two do not work, or even play together. Except 10 CM.
 
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Tony R said:
My son and I were at my club's range and a friend who's opinion I greatly respect told my son to not only get his pilot's license but to get his A&P and IA. He said his A&P owns the maintenance facility and makes an incredible living and sleeps in own bed every night.

My friend is the chief pilot for a privately owned Cessna Sovereign, who does pretty well for himself, too

Has anyone else seen A&Ps having such opportunities or is this a local phenomena?

Of course it is up to my 14 year old son on what he wants to do. Just looking to get the tribes opinion on this.
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Today I would spend my training dollars on an AP before an ATP. The AI will be capable of flying the planes long before repair capability.
 
If the pilot or engineer at PanAm was also a mechanic we absolutely could sign off on work performed on an airplane. Mostly at out station situations. Pan Am even issued new hire engineers a tool kit when hired. Just depends on how the ops manuals are written. Now though the TSA wouldn't let me carry them.
 
pfarber said:
Do you mean Part 121 airline?

Um... how do you keep your AnP certificate current? Did you go to a GenFam class (kind of a type certificate for AnPs)?

Pt 91 charter I can see being an AnP and Commerical pilot... but harder to see how 121/135 would allow it.
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Most definitely 121; I fly for Delta.

I will use my A&P to maintain the airplanes owned by my business and my personal airplanes.

I know a LOT of folks I fly with that own airplanes. All of them wish they had an A&P (the ones who do have more airplanes typically).
 
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