100 hour wonders.... amazing

[overdrive148]

I remember that when I got my first pilot certificate, a pilot acquaintance told me it was a license to learn. I didn't like hearing that, but boy did she ever turn out to be right!

My DPE told me that after I passed!

 

[Hacker]

I remember that when I got my first pilot certificate, a pilot acquaintance told me it was a license to learn. I didn't like hearing that, but boy did she ever turn out to be right!

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

 

[midlifeflyer]

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

It never stops. Being a learner is a state of mind, not a certificate or rating.

 

[dtuuri]

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

I dunno, but after about 6,000 hours and a cupla type ratings, ya oughta be allowed to fly whatever ya want as long as ya read the book first.

 

[CC268]

I’m trying to help with that by sticking around. That way you’ll know who the jackass is...
;-)

Lol I can tell you that you ain’t one of them

 

[Hacker]

It never stops. Being a learner is a state of mind, not a certificate or rating.

Precisely my point.

 

[Hacker]

I dunno, but after about 6,000 hours and a cupla type ratings, ya oughta be allowed to fly whatever ya want as long as ya read the book first.

It would be entertaining to watch, say, a straight military-trained jet dude with that number of hours in multiple military jets go try and fly a Pitts or a T-6 after having only read the book.

I've personally seen the opposite, the high-time multiple type rated corporate guys have a go in the T-38, and it was quite entertaining.

 

[Palmpilot]

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

More than I have, apparently!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

It would be entertaining to watch, say, a straight military-trained jet dude with that number of hours in multiple military jets go try and fly a Pitts or a T-6 after having only read the book.

I've personally seen the opposite, the high-time multiple type rated corporate guys have a go in the T-38, and it was quite entertaining.

Can you work it out so you have the opportunity to be entertained by my efforts in a t-38?

 

[dtuuri]

It would be entertaining to watch, say, a straight military-trained jet dude with that number of hours in multiple military jets go try and fly a Pitts or a T-6 after having only read the book.

Well, you know, they can already do that if they want to, but to get up to 6,000 hours in the military you'd have to retire and reenlist about three times.

I've personally seen the opposite, the high-time multiple type rated corporate guys have a go in the T-38, and it was quite entertaining.

I've never known any high-time, type rated corporate guys who joined the military. The low time GA guys I knew already were bound for the military and were warned to get their private license first because the washout rate was so much lower for civilian pilots who already knew how to fly.

 

[Hacker]

Can you work it out so you have the opportunity to be entertained by my efforts in a t-38?

Unfortunately, not my gig anymore.

I actually really enjoyed taking folks up in the Eagle and T-38 who didn't do that as their day job.

 

[Hacker]

Well, you know, they can already do that if they want to, but to get up to 6,000 hours in the military you'd have to retire and reenlist about three times.

Depends on the aircraft type. I was primarily a fighter/trainer guy and retired right at 20 years with about 4,000 hours. Tanker/bomber/transport guys get a lot more than I did as a pointy-nosed guy getting those hours 1 or 1.5 at a time. I even had two non-flying assignments during that career span.

I've never known any high-time, type rated corporate guys who joined the military. The low time GA guys I knew already were bound for the military and were warned to get their private license first because the washout rate was so much lower for civilian pilots who already knew how to fly.

I trained several in the early '00s who were headed for Guard and Reserve gigs. Primarily dudes who heard the call to serve later in life after 9/11.

That being said, the incidents I'm referring to were civilian guys who for whatever reason or another arranged flights in the '38. A couple of them were guys who owned warbirds and who brought their airplanes in for airshows on USAF bases and a jet ride was part of the deal.

 

[dtuuri]

That being said, the incidents I'm referring to were civilian guys who for whatever reason or another arranged flights in the '38. A couple of them were guys who owned warbirds and who brought their airplanes in for airshows on USAF bases and a jet ride was part of the deal.

And I never knew any corporate pilots who could afford a warbird, YMMV.

 

[Hacker]

And I never knew any corporate pilots who could afford a warbird, YMMV.

Here's one to get you started:

https://www.stallion51.com/mustang-flight-ops/lee-lauderback/

 

[dtuuri]

Here's one to get you started:

https://www.stallion51.com/mustang-flight-ops/lee-lauderback/

It's been awhile since he was Palmer's chief pilot. I don't remember him having a warbird back at LBE in those days, but I could be mistaken. I didn't know him though.

 

[Hacker]

It's been awhile since he was Palmer's chief pilot. I don't remember him having a warbird back at LBE in those days, but I could be mistaken. I didn't know him though.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Are you trying to discount what I stated in the posts about the experienced corporate guys I flew with in the T-38 by nit-picking at the details? Yeah, if you want to be really specific about it, they didn't *own* the airplanes they flew in to the shows. They were pilots flying warbirds owned by various museums and which they were checked out, insured, and qualified in. That wasn't the point of the examples anyway.

Surely you weren't serious with your "6,000 hours, a couple of type ratings, and reading the book" post, though, right? That's what we're talking about.

 

[Salty]

Where does a relative newcomer look to see what ratings and how many hours an Internet poster has? Even for someone like me, who has been around the forum for a while, there are many posters whose experience and qualifications are unknown to me.

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

its not a license to learn anymore when you get this cert.

 

[Ted]

I dunno, but after about 6,000 hours and a cupla type ratings, ya oughta be allowed to fly whatever ya want as long as ya read the book first.

That doesn't seem like a very good idea, but I only have 3,000 hours and no type ratings, just the MU-2 training. A number of people who've come to the MU-2 after having had several type ratings have stated they wouldn't have wanted to jump in it without instruction.

Where does a relative newcomer look to see what ratings and how many hours an Internet poster has? Even for someone like me, who has been around the forum for a while, there are many posters whose experience and qualifications are unknown to me.

For those of us (like me) whose names are known, it's pretty easy to find ratings:

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

There are lots of limitations to that, though. All that tells you is that commercial cert was issued in 2009 and my flight instructor cert was issued in 2017. In this case I've had my CFI since 2009, and so 2017 is my most recent renewal. It doesn't tell you that I received my private in 2008 (same with my instrument). Various things can reset that date. And it doesn't tell you that I have 3,000 hours.

Basically, it's wise to take advice from SGOTI with a grain of salt. Over time you have certain people in the community that people will recognize as more (or less) competent. But on the whole, someone who speaks loudly and with conviction is not necessarily correct in his or her assertions.

 

[Hacker]

Well, you know, they can already do that if they want to,

As an aside, no, a military-trained pilot is not qualified to fly a tailwheel airplane like the Pitts or Six simply by virtue of their military training and experience.

They can get a commercial single/multi instrument ticket via the FAA mil-competency exam, but it is not automatic -- they have to go take the test and apply for the certificates on their own. The single-engine cert only applies for guys who had a single-engine trainer or operational aircraft in the mix, so there are many generations of T-37 and T-38 trained USAF pilots who don't even have an ASEL even if they have an AMEL, ATP, or whatever type ratings allow them to have moved on to corporate or airline flying.

Then, there's the tailwheel endorsement and whatever tailwheel or time-in-type requirements the insurance underwriters have...

 

[dtuuri]

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Just not buying that "high time", multiple type rated civilian pilots (like Lee Lauderbach) would have a hard time getting checked out in, what was it, an F-18? That was your observation, wasn't it?

 

[dtuuri]

...a military-trained pilot is not qualified to fly a tailwheel airplane like the Pitts or Six simply by virtue of their military training and experience.

Yes, of course. I assumed everybody knows that they need a civilian license first.

 

[dtuuri]

That doesn't seem like a very good idea, but I only have 3,000 hours and no type ratings, just the MU-2 training. A number of people who've come to the MU-2 after having had several type ratings have stated they wouldn't have wanted to jump in it without instruction.

Actually, I know somebody who never flew an MU-2 and worked for an aircraft salesman who bought one. He got a copy of the manual, read it on the way to Texas via airline, jumped into the plane and flew it it back to Pennsylvania. A couple years afterward, he got a job for an aircraft management company teaching in about six different turbine airplanes at their various bases, including a BAC-111 simulator. Not everyone can do these things, though. He was quite an impressive guy.

 

[Hacker]

Just not buying that "high time", multiple type rated civilian pilots (like Lee Lauderbach) would have a hard time getting checked out in, what was it, an F-18? That was your observation, wasn't it?

No, I was countering your statement that someone should be able to fly whatever they please after having "6000 hours and a couple of type ratings and reading the book".

I was specifically referencing experiences I had with pilots who fit a similar profile to what you proposed, who would not have been able to alone go jump in a T-38 and survive having only read the book and without type-specific dual training. Never flown an F-18, so I can't comment on that.

I had similar experiences, personally, as a primarily military-trained jet guy and trying to jump in a T-6 and get initial tailwheel training that way. Even with dual instruction, I would have easily crashed or wrecked the airplane had I simply just read the book and went for it.

So, I was providing two personal datapoints at different ends of the spectrum of aircraft types to counter your proposal, which I thought was surely sarcastic.

 

[Kritchlow]

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

More than I have, apparently!

You know, reflecting on my career so far I consider the ATP the license to learn.
Sure, the physical flying skills are tuned, but the judgement and decision making is generally in its infancy.
In addition, not many with fewer than 1500 hours have consistently flown into the nations busiest airports in all weather conditions.

 

[vman]

vman said: ↑
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veldhuyzen_van_Zanten
At the time of the disaster, he had 11,700 flight hours (1,545 of which were on the Boeing 747).[2] In addition to his duties as a regular airline pilot, he had been promoted to chief flight instructor for the Boeing 747.[3] At the time of his death, he was in charge of training all of KLM's pilots on this type of aircraft and the head of KLM's flight training department.[4]/QUOTE]

That’s a little sobering right there.

ended up missing this part
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

Probable cause
The investigation concluded that the fundamental cause of the accident was that captain Veldhuyzen van Zanten attempted to take off without clearance.

 

[Ted]

Actually, I know somebody who never flew an MU-2 and worked for an aircraft salesman who bought one. He got a copy of the manual, read it on the way to Texas via airline, jumped into the plane and flew it it back to Pennsylvania. A couple years afterward, he got a job for an aircraft management company teaching in about six different turbine airplanes at their various bases, including a BAC-111 simulator. Not everyone can do these things, though. He was quite an impressive guy.

That is essentially what I did with the 414. Read through the POH, and then hopped in a plane that hadn't flown in 6 years to do a ferry flight from Oklahoma to Nebraska. The airspeed indicator failed on final (indicating about 30-40 KIAS faster than I was going). The plane felt like it was going to stall on short final, I gently pointed the nose down and added some power, and when I stopped the airspeed indicator read 90, winds calm. I had a couple thousand hours of twin time by then including 310, Navajo, etc. so it was relevant. Sure, it can be done, however your point in bold/underline is the important note that not everyone can do that.

In the MU-2 world, it wasn't uncommon for people to do what the fellow you knew did prior to the SFAR. Why did the SFAR come about? Because a lot of people couldn't do that without crashing, and so training became mandated. That training closely mimics what's required for a type rating both in terms of initial and recurrent. As I said when I started flying the plane, had it been a 425 or a Cheyenne (or even a C90), I would've been comfortable hopping in and flying it home. The MU-2 I would not have flown without training, even if it was legal. I don't know if I'm exceptional or not, but I don't want to die.

My guess under your proposal is that some pilots would do fine, but the accident rate would go up significantly. We can all point to exceptional individuals who don't need that training and good pilots will look for training if they feel they need it even if it's not required. However we also all know a lot of poor performing pilots who think they're exceptional and would not get the training they need, then become NTSB reports. That doesn't help any of us.

 

[Kritchlow]

Actually, I know somebody who never flew an MU-2 and worked for an aircraft salesman who bought one. He got a copy of the manual, read it on the way to Texas via airline, jumped into the plane and flew it it back to Pennsylvania. A couple years afterward, he got a job for an aircraft management company teaching in about six different turbine airplanes at their various bases, including a BAC-111 simulator. Not everyone can do these things, though. He was quite an impressive guy.

Well, he did it without incident, but did he actually fly the airplane correctly?
If he lost one on rotation I wonder how that would have gone..??

 

[vman]

one wrong move can end up curtains ..for anyone,

like flicking (or not) a wrong switch..

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/09/cessna-150h-n7152s-fatal-accident.html

The left seat air transport pilot and right seat passenger sustained fatal injuries.
---
The pilot communicated to the fiancé that the airplane was experiencing a "small electrical problem"
---
He asked the fiancé to be stationed on the north end of runway 10 with a flashlight to help vector the airplane in for landing. The pilot directed the fiancé, "lights on the north end pointing north."

 

[nauga]

Yes, of course. I assumed everybody knows that they need a civilian license first.

Unless they're flying one operated by the military

Nauga,
and his qualevals

 

[dtuuri]

So, I was providing two personal datapoints at different ends of the spectrum of aircraft types to counter your proposal, which I thought was surely sarcastic.

Not sarcastic, but tongue in cheek. Still, there's some truth in my proposition.

 

[dtuuri]

My guess under your proposal is that some pilots would do fine, but the accident rate would go up significantly. We can all point to exceptional individuals who don't need that training and good pilots will look for training if they feel they need it even if it's not required. However we also all know a lot of poor performing pilots who think they're exceptional and would not get the training they need, then become NTSB reports. That doesn't help any of us.

After a couple type ratings, you pretty well know how to play the game and it simply becomes a matter of substituting one plane for another. After about 6,000 hours you realize the importance of thorough preparation. However, I agree that many of us wouldn't even read the book let alone study it.

 

[dtuuri]

Well, he did it without incident, but did he actually fly the airplane correctly?
If he lost one on rotation I wonder how that would have gone..??

I suppose everything would have gone just fine, but I get your drift. He had the educational background and prior flying experience to pull it off. It was this unusual ability that scored him the training job at the management company. He would fly all over the Midwest to conduct recurrent training in the various airplane types operated there, Jet Commanders, Turbo Commanders, Learjets (I think), King Airs, Jetstars and a BAC-111. Maybe even Sabres. Anybody else couldn't have done it. Drove his wife crazy when they re-papered the wall in the dining room. He wouldn't let her start for days while he figured out exactly how to slice the paper in the most efficient way. Engineers, I guess, can be like that sometimes.

EDIT: I haven't talked to him in almost 40 years, so I checked the FAA airman registry. Here's a list of his type ratings:

A/B-727
A/B-757 A/B-767 A/B-777 A/BA-111
A/CE-500 A/DA-20 A/DC-3 A/HS-125 A/IA-JET
A/L-1329 A/LR-JET A/MU-300
​

Also:

AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE SEA
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE SEA
PRIVATE PRIVILEGES
ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER
GLIDER​

 

[AKBill]

My DPE told me that after I passed!

"License to Learn is a phrase I have heard from CFI's and DPE'S" it's a good fraise if the person is listening, I listened. I'm just a humble Private Pilot of 23 years. I don't fly a lot of long cross country flights anymore, I think 200 hours was the most I have flown in a year. Nowadays it's more like 50 hours a year. I've made lots of small mistakes in 23 years only 3 mistakes that shook me to the core that come to mind.
1. Vastly overweight flying over the Rockies, landed in Idaho and mailed 200 pounds of luggage to myself.
2. Weather flew up to a squall line in Wyoming, severe turbulence. Made a 180 and overnighted to wait the weather out.
3. Lots of convective turbulence (Hot summer day) on a trip from Chicago to Knoxville. I missed switching from Left to Right fuel tank. Landed with 2 gallons in the tank, 30 gallons in the Right tank.
Live and learn, hopefully you catch a break like I have.
I always ask seasoned flyers questions and enjoy the stories. Maybe my frame of mine is due to the fact I have worked on Navy and Civilian aircraft since H.S. and did not earn my wings till the ripe age of 38...

Sorry for the rambling,

How many different ratings does it take for it to *stop* being a license to learn?

Zero hours and 100 ratings.

 

[James_Dean]

Anybody following this Air Wagner joker? I think he perfectly exemplifies the attitudes at issue here. He really thinks he flies like a boss. Seriously, just watch these.


What?!? Minimums.

Crosswind component of what? Ygbfsm.

Watch this hot mess.

Deice the plane with water in freezing conditions?

 

[CC268]

Anybody following this Air Wagner joker? I think he perfectly exemplifies the attitudes at issue here. He really thinks he flies like a boss. Seriously, just watch these.


What?!? Minimums.

Crosswind component of what? Ygbfsm.

Watch this hot mess.

Deice the plane with water in freezing conditions?

Holy smokes that third video

Don’t think I will take the time to watch the others lol

 

[benyflyguy]

Anybody following this Air Wagner joker? I think he perfectly exemplifies the attitudes at issue here. He really thinks he flies like a boss. Seriously, just watch these.


What?!? Minimums.

Crosswind component of what? Ygbfsm.

Watch this hot mess.

Deice the plane with water in freezing conditions?

Watched that ILS approach. For a guy who talks all the time he was pretty silent when the “minimums” annunciation was made. Didn’t call airport in sight until he was below. I guess you could see the approach lights but he didn’t call it, not that he had to but he freaking called everything else out. Seems like a real piece or work. There are some chances to learn there but nothing that was intended
Other vids disabled???

 

[Z06_Mir]

Watched that ILS approach. For a guy who talks all the time he was pretty silent when the “minimums” annunciation was made. Didn’t call airport in sight until he was below. I guess you could see the approach lights but he didn’t call it, not that he had to but he freaking called everything else out. Seems like a real piece or work. There are some chances to learn there but nothing that was intended
Other vids disabled???

The other videos are available but you have to watch them on YouTube directly.

I cringe at his videos and especially his radio skills, but it's like a car accident and I can't stop watching. He had that 320 with really basic instruments and then gets the 414, somehow decides he now needs full glass when he can't use what he has. Just yikes.

 

[Zeldman]

Anybody following this Air Wagner joker? I think he perfectly exemplifies the attitudes at issue here. He really thinks he flies like a boss. Seriously, just watch these.

On the first video with the front camera, I saw a approach light just as minimums was called out.
To descend below DH or MDA the pilot must have the landing environment in sight, run or lights.
Flight visibility, that is what the pilot sees, must be at least equal to landing minimums.
The aircraft must be in position to make a normal approach and landing.
A pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the TDZ elevation....unless the red terminating or side row bars are visible.
So the question is.... did the pilot have a 1/2 mile visibility? Only the pilot can make that call.


After landing, if I was flying and If anyone cared to ask, at DH the approach lights and runway was in sight, the plane was in a position to make a normal approach and landing and there was a 1/2 mile flight visibility. Only the pilot can determine the flight visibility.

I was not there, but personally I probably would have already started the go around about 10 feet above the minimums callout, even if I did see the ground a half second later. But that is a judgment call, I was not in the plane so I really can't make the decision to land or not for this guy.

And yeah, blowing through the localizer was a rookie type mistake. I know because I have done it, and funny, the times I blew past the localizer I was in VMC conditions. Just FYI, you do not blow through the localizer full scale at Flagstaff on the ILS 21 while IMC. At least not more than once.

They were calling zero/zero for the vis. The zero/zero I experienced in Alaska, I could not see the past the hood of my truck while driving....and yes, I drove straight into a big pile of snow that the plow had piled up....I was speeding down the street at a whopping 5 miles per hour.



On the personal limitations I kind of agree. A pilot has got to know his limitations, the planes limitations and have a way out. (with apologies to Clint Eastwood)

I wonder why he did not use differential power on the cross wind landing.?? I can't discuss cross winds because I can't land in calm winds. If the wind isn't 20 or more I am not comfortable... Seriously, my worst landings are in calm winds. Give me a good stiff cross wind and I'll put it down with hardly a bump.

 

[Ted]

The problem with folks like this "Air Wagner" joker is that someone not knowing better might actually think he's a good pilot, and follow his example.

 

[CC268]

The problem with folks like this "Air Wagner" joker is that someone not knowing better might actually think he's a good pilot, and follow his example.

People love him though just look at the comments lol

I think most the comments are from people who aren’t pilots though. Some of his radio work is so cringey hahaha

Gets on with tower “Barely on the ILS”

Lol who the heck says that