“Real ID” what are we fixing here?

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Roller

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Roller
What gives?

Been seeing tons of commercials about we need real ID to get on a domestic airline, and it’s so easy to get etc

I’m just over here wondering “why”

So it proves you’re a US citizen, thing is you don’t need to be a US citizen to hop on these domestic airline flights

So aside from cross pollinating even more of my personal data, what issue did this fix for the flying public and Main Street?


Personally, the only ID I show is my passport card as it has the bare minimum info on it, no one has a valid reason to know my address, the people who need to know my address already know it, same with lots of the other info on and in your drivers license.
 
when I renewed my ID last year and registered my car, I brought every form of ID under the sun so I could get my real ID. I assumed I was covered by bringing: my current DL, my current passport, my current passport card, my backup state ID, my birth certificate, my FOID card, multiple mail items showing my address, bank statements, last year's tax returns... Literally everything I could think of in a folder.

Turns out the 1 thing I need to prove I'm a legit person is my ****ing social security card, which is the 1 thing I didn't have.
That little dingy piece of **** cardstock, which is probably the most easily forgeable thing on earth, is apparently what shows I'm verifiably me.
So that's about how much faith I have in REAL IDs.
 
Roller said:
What gives?

Been seeing tons of commercials about we need real ID to get on a domestic airline, and it’s so easy to get etc

I’m just over here wondering “why”

So it proves you’re a US citizen, thing is you don’t need to be a US citizen to hop on these domestic airline flights
Click to expand...
It doesn't prove you are a US citizen. You can get a real id compliant ID being a citizen, green card holder or visa holder.

All a real id does is set a minimum set of standards for the states to follow when issuing IDs. That's it. Those standards include verifying the identity and status of the person. It also includes updating a shared database when new IDs are issued. The reason for requiring them for flight isn't for the citizenship part, it's for the shared database part. TSA can easily verify that a real id is legit as compared to somehow using 50 state databases.

Yes, you can satisfy the identity part with a passport. But by having a drivers license that meets the minimum standard you don't have to carry your passport for domestic travel. And passports are approx 10x more expensive than drivers licenses or state ID.
 
Each state has its own rules regarding the issuance of IDs and driver's licenses. You'll remember some states issuing IDs and DLs to illegal/undocumented aliens. The Federal Government wants a minimum standard of proof of legal residency for the IDs used for various Federal purposes such as TSA screening. The Real ID mark indicates that the Federal standard was met for the issuance of that ID.

You can still get a state ID or DL without it but it won't be good for Federal ID purposes after May 7.
 
Roller said:
I’m just over here wondering “why”
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It was originally passed in 2005 because the 9/11 hijackers had over 30 fake domestic IDs in their possession. As mentioned it puts a minimum requirement on all 50 states to follow when issue a drivers license... if that person so requests. Theres no mandate unless you want to fly. However, I think the push to finally enforce the law 20 years later has more to do with certain states who issued state drivers licenses to illegals and the associated implications.
 
172andyou said:
It doesn't prove you are a US citizen. You can get a real id compliant ID being a citizen, green card holder or visa holder.

All a real id does is set a minimum set of standards for the states to follow when issuing IDs. That's it. Those standards include verifying the identity and status of the person. It also includes updating a shared database when new IDs are issued. The reason for requiring them for flight isn't for the citizenship part, it's for the shared database part. TSA can easily verify that a real id is legit as compared to somehow using 50 state databases.

Yes, you can satisfy the identity part with a passport. But by having a drivers license that meets the minimum standard you don't have to carry your passport for domestic travel. And passports are approx 10x more expensive than drivers licenses or state ID.
Click to expand...

Shared database

RG0BS1U.gif
 
Bell206 said:
It was originally passed in 2005 because the 9/11 hijackers had over 30 fake domestic IDs in their possession. As mentioned it puts a minimum requirement on all 50 states to follow when issue a drivers license... if that person so requests. Theres no mandate unless you want to fly. However, I think the push to finally enforce the law 20 years later has more to do with certain states who issued state drivers licenses to illegals and the associated implications.
Click to expand...

If they were fake how would this have changed anything?



Also seems ones right to travel, plus state rights etc etc, shame this didn’t get more push back, I’d wager the real reason was getting that shared database
 
Roller said:
If they were fake how would this have changed anything? Also seems ones right to travel, plus state rights etc etc, shame this didn’t get more push back, I’d wager the real reason was getting that shared database
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If you take the time to actually read about the purpose of the real ID you could actually answer your own questions. The only push back was because the states would have to implement the new standards. But as mentioned there's no mandate you must have a Real ID. So?
 
jbarrass said:
It doesn't even prove you're a citizen, just proves legal presence.
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I was just thinking about this

Does it?


If someone snuck into the country, still had their passport from wherever, bought an airline ticket, showed their Mexico/El Savador/etc passport, they’d be on the plane just the same?

I also wonder if this shared database will be run for facial recognition, the path this goes down is familiar to some other countries

My guess is it has nothing to do with real air travel safety, they are just using that to make it bothersome enough for people to get their face and info into that database
 
Roller said:
If someone snuck into the country, still had their passport from wherever, bought an airline ticket, showed their Mexico/El Savador/etc passport, they’d be on the plane just the same?
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The general advice given to people like this is to not fly because they can be flagged by a few different steps in the law enforcement supply chain. But my understanding is that the TSA doesn't currently have a link to the visa database, which is what would be needed to assess if the passport holder is in country legally.
 
If you think you're not already in 100 different databases then your head is in the sand.

When you fly your name is checked in the No Fly database... and then the airlines own 'banned flyer' database.

I am 100% pro ID. If you're legal then you have nothing to worry about. Is it a perfect system? NOPE. But as a country we somehow believe the TSA is protecting us (lol no, not at all).

My wife (green card holder) has a REAL ID. It was added it when she got her DL.
 
REAL ID is nothing new. The law requiring it was passed by Congress in 2005, 20 years ago! I've had mine for many years, it's a nothing burger. TSA and other federal agencies have kept kicking the can down the road year after year and they finally decided no more extensions.

Day 1 will be interesting though. Despite years of marketing by the TSA, the airlines, and Department of Transportation, there will still be those that have no clue and show up to the airport without one.
 
172andyou said:
And passports are approx 10x more expensive than drivers licenses or state ID.
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Are they really in your state? I wish, because that would mean driver licenses must be pretty cheap there.

A passport book comes to $165 total, and it's good for 10 years as an adult. That's $16.50 a year.

In my state, driver licenses are $77 for an 8 year license. That's $9.63 a year.

Making passports about 1.7 times as expensive as driver licenses here.
 
It makes me chuckle every time I see "ENHANCED COMMERCIAL DRIVERS LICENSE" printed on my Real ID-compliant card.

giphy.gif
 
RussR said:
Are they really in your state? I wish, because that would mean driver licenses must be pretty cheap there.

A passport book comes to $165 total, and it's good for 10 years as an adult. That's $16.50 a year.

In my state, driver licenses are $77 for an 8 year license. That's $9.63 a year.

Making passports about 1.7 times as expensive as driver licenses here.
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Sure, I guess there is variability and I was probably exaggerating a little because I'm a round numbers guy and my state is one of the ones that's $20. But google tells me that there are 18 states above $40 and 14 that are $20. So between 4 and 8 times. For those who just need an ID, the costs are even lower.

Much less than a passport and much more convenient to carry than a passport.
 
pfarber said:
If you think you're not already in 100 different databases then your head is in the sand.

When you fly your name is checked in the No Fly database... and then the airlines own 'banned flyer' database.

I am 100% pro ID. If you're legal then you have nothing to worry about. Is it a perfect system? NOPE. But as a country we somehow believe the TSA is protecting us (lol no, not at all).

My wife (green card holder) has a REAL ID. It was added it when she got her DL.
Click to expand...

You’re already in some system, tracked and tagged like luggage at the airport. Funny thing is, the rulemakers?

Everyone knows where the big shots in Congress hang their hats, So, go on, ask ‘em to slap a GPS on their ride. See how they squirm.


Over in the Middle East, bases are no secret. Everybody knows they’re there, but they’re not exactly shouting their moves or headcounts from the rooftops. They keep it tight, as they should.


And that tired line, “If you’re clean, you’ve got nothing to hide”? Yeah, that’s got a nasty history.
 
Michigan is run by retards when it comes to the real ID thing. I have a CPL, which required everything the real ID does (and more) to obtain. On my CPL it has my drivers license number in addition to the CPL number. So I've already done everything to get real ID and the two are tied together. Both have the same picture. Will Michigan just reissue my DL with the star on it? Nope. Because it's run by those ****tards Benson and Whitmer. ****ing idiots. I refuse to get it. I'll just use my passport.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
when I renewed my ID last year and registered my car, I brought every form of ID under the sun so I could get my real ID. I assumed I was covered by bringing: my current DL, my current passport, my current passport card, my backup state ID, my birth certificate, my FOID card, multiple mail items showing my address, bank statements, last year's tax returns... Literally everything I could think of in a folder.

Turns out the 1 thing I need to prove I'm a legit person is my ****ing social security card, which is the 1 thing I didn't have.
That little dingy piece of **** cardstock, which is probably the most easily forgeable thing on earth, is apparently what shows I'm verifiably me.
So that's about how much faith I have in REAL IDs.
Click to expand...
I think there alternative docs that you can use, that I think one in theory could print from a Google search, to get an ID. Does it prove legal presence? Or just prove you are that person at a certain standard across all states? So now illegals cannot fly?

You forgot your CCL too ;) another visit to the DMV.
 
pfarber said:
If you think you're not already in 100 different databases then your head is in the sand.

When you fly your name is checked in the No Fly database... and then the airlines own 'banned flyer' database.

I am 100% pro ID. If you're legal then you have nothing to worry about. Is it a perfect system? NOPE. But as a country we somehow believe the TSA is protecting us (lol no, not at all).

My wife (green card holder) has a REAL ID. It was added it when she got her DL.
Click to expand...

I think it’s weird to ID when you go to a bar, I don’t know why people insist on IDing people who are clearly old enough. The culture of making it weird to drink when you’re under 21 is also just weird. Also, why do we need to show an ID with our exact date of birth and address? It’s a privacy thing, with that data, one could potentially apply for credit in your name or who knows what. You don’t know who has bad intentions, why do I want the bouncer knowing where I live?

Also, why does an ID need to expire, an expired ID doesn’t mean you aren’t who you are, and that you aren’t old enough. It’s just a waste of time to deal with the DMV.

A permanent federal ID sounds practical, with a barcode, your photo, your name, and it can simply say Under 21 or Over 21. Anyone with authority can scan the barcode to access designated data (driver license permissions, immigration status, gun license, etc), depending upon permissions given to that person / machine scanning the ID.

I get that some people have time and don’t mind doing the run around, but personally I don’t really ever want to deal with a government agency, ever, and I don’t think I should have to either.
 
mandm said:
I think it’s weird to ID when you go to a bar, I don’t know why people insist on IDing people who are clearly old enough. The culture of making it weird to drink when you’re under 21 is also just weird. Also, why do we need to show an ID with our exact date of birth and address? It’s a privacy thing, with that data, one could potentially apply for credit in your name or who knows what. You don’t know who has bad intentions, why do I want the bouncer knowing where I live?

Also, why does an ID need to expire, an expired ID doesn’t mean you aren’t who you are, and that you aren’t old enough. It’s just a waste of time to deal with the DMV.

A permanent federal ID sounds practical, with a barcode, your photo, your name, and it can simply say Under 21 or Over 21. Anyone with authority can scan the barcode to access designated data (driver license permissions, immigration status, gun license, etc), depending upon permissions given to that person / machine scanning the ID.

I get that some people have time and don’t mind doing the run around, but personally I don’t really ever want to deal with a government agency, ever, and I don’t think I should have to either.
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some great points! Not long ago I was processing the renewals for passports (mine and my wife's)..the whole thing seemed like a silly waste of resources and expense...on my end and the State Department's end too...to print up a new document and all.
I get it for little kids whose picture will look very different in a few years...or even someone who loses a ton of weight or whatever...but I'm old, look pretty much the same as I did for the last passport...really the last two passports... and since you don't really seeam to get visa stamps anymore, and since I only used it a very few times... the old book is "just like new"
It seems like it could be easier and cheaper just to periodically re-validate the old thing, reconfirm eligibility, reconfirm address, confirm that the new picture looks like the old picture... whatever else needs confirming. Then if the person hasn't had some physical transformation greatly changing their appearance and requiring a new photo then just check a box in the computer that says the old thing is still good for another x number of years..
 
midwestpa24 said:
To start it would need a photo on it, as mandated by Congress several years ago but the FAA has never followed through.
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Except I seem to recall that both attempts by the FAA to put photos on certificates received such a large amount of negative comments during the NPRM process from pilots and groups like AOPA that both proposals were dropped?
 
Roller said:
If they were fake how would this have changed anything?



Also seems ones right to travel, plus state rights etc etc, shame this didn’t get more push back, I’d wager the real reason was getting that shared database
Click to expand...
"Right to travel" does not mean right to use any means of travel one wishes. You can still travel, just not by air.
 
172andyou said:
Much less than a passport and much more convenient to carry than a passport.
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I believe that all states which have voter ID laws will provide a state ID without charge.

StraightnLevel said:
Why aren't our pilot certs considered "Real ID"?
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A real ID requires proof of a number of things in addition to being a photo ID. Proof of Identity and Lawful Status, Proof of Social Security Number, and Proof of Residency. None of those are required to obtain an FAA certificate.

Lawson_Stone said:
You can still travel, just not by air.
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You can even travel by air, just not by a scheduled airline.
 
Fun fact: The REAL ID act was passed in 2005. Both the House and Senate were majority-Republican, and G. W. Bush was President.
 
You don’t even need an ID to travel. If you forget your ID, TSA will just provide extra screening to confirm your identity. My wife forgot her license years ago and took an extra 30 minutes at TSA because they needed to confirm who she was. I wouldn’t purposely leave my ID at home just because I can, but you can most certainly still travel.
 
Bell206 said:
Except I seem to recall that both attempts by the FAA to put photos on certificates received such a large amount of negative comments during the NPRM process from pilots and groups like AOPA that both proposals were dropped?
Click to expand...

The FAA has tried every year to implement the photo requirement, and puts it in the budget items requested from congress. And every year congress removes the request. Congress mandated it, but refuses to fund the operation.
 
jordane93 said:
You don’t even need an ID to travel. If you forget your ID, TSA will just provide extra screening to confirm your identity. My wife forgot her license years ago and took an extra 30 minutes at TSA because they needed to confirm who she was. I wouldn’t purposely leave my ID at home just because I can, but you can most certainly still travel.
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So how do they do that? I’d wager this is more a annoyance tactic to get more folks into the database vs actual real concern that they are not the person on the state ID they presented

Lawson_Stone said:
"Right to travel" does not mean right to use any means of travel one wishes. You can still travel, just not by air.
Click to expand...

Not a good slope to go down, also seeing how the big airlines are subsidized by the tax payer..
 
Larry in TN said:
.A real ID requires proof of a number of things in addition to being a photo ID. Proof of Identity and Lawful Status, Proof of Social Security Number, and Proof of Residency. None of those are required to obtain an FAA certificate.
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Are you sure? I had to provide a bunch of ID when I started my training, and had to show ID for my checkride.

I was under the impression that post-9/11 they added some restrictions on pilot training for non-citizens...?
 
Last edited:
For the topic "what are we fixing:

The REAL ID is a set of standards the States must meet to allow interoperability of ID databases (usually DMV). Prior to REAL ID every state had its own format for how they held the information. So you could not query the data in a 'universal' form. REAL ID does validate your identity, but that was just to make sure the data is correct. The purpose is to allow information sharing.

A made up example would be something like California DL doesn't encode 'sex' the same way Florida does. So when someone outside of CA looks up the persons identity, it could get 'two spirit squirrel' when FL expects 'male' or 'female'. Now CA, in order to be REAL ID compliant has to have 'male' and 'female'. Again this is just example of interoperability.
 
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