“Resume own Nav” while IFR

malcoholio

malcoholio

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
30
Location
Monterey
Display Name
Display name:
Malcoholio
Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!
 
Resume own nav does not mean do whatever you want, it means fly your flight plan/clearance.
 
My CFII taught me to treat a clearance as a contract between me and ATC. "ATC: Left 20; N2468: Left 20" and "ATC: Own nav; N2468: Own nav" are amendments to the contract proposed by ATC and then agreed upon by you. "Direct Delta" seems like a unilateral thing.
 
If it mattered, the controller would have been more specific.

If you are unsure, request whatever it is that you want.

In RADAR environments, a vector off course almost always ends in a clearance direct to a downline fix. If you want to rejoin an airway quicker, request that instead.

From the P/CG:
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored.​

In your case, "Resume own navigation", doesn't specify how to return to your route. As long as you do something reasonable, the controller can't complain. If it mattered, he would have given a specific clearance.
 
I’m thinking I’ve only heard this while flying flight following or VFR when you have a temporary deviation by ATC, when they are done vectoring you around they would say resume own navigation.

During IFR, ATC should be more specific if vectoring you around, when finished they would say direct waypoint or destination.

I’m guessing they forgot you were IFR and since it was VMC wasn’t a big deal for them, probably not much traffic nearby either.
 
MacFlier said:
I think the best action would be for you to select the flight plan leg that made more sense after Bravo waypoint and then "activate leg" on your GPS.
Click to expand...
Correct. If ATC gives a vector off course and then gives that instruction and you’re in between fixes, you go back direct the next fix on your flight plan (Charlie in this case) not skip to Delta.
 
dmspilot said:
Resume own nav does not mean do whatever you want, it means fly your flight plan/clearance.
RyanB said:
Correct. If ATC gives a vector off course and then gives that instruction and you’re in between fixes, you go back direct the next fix on your flight plan (Charlie in this case) not skip to Delta.
Click to expand...
But I had not yet reached Bravo. I was flying From Alpha TO Bravo when vectored. When told ‘own nav’ I was far PAST Bravo. Are you suggesting the right response is to fly backwards to hit Bravo first, before proceeding to Charlie. That’s the Crux of my Question. In my mind, it was a lateral flight to Charlie, or a forward flight to Delta.
Click to expand...
 
malcoholio said:
Maybe all the holiday Cheer has my memory malfunctioning, but I hit an unexpected situation yesterday and would appreciate some input.

Setup: Flying IFR in VMC from KAAA to KBBB. Flight plan included a long segment on a Victor Airway. This occurred during that segment. Flight segment was over mountainous terrain, and my altitude gave me (just barely) the 2,000 feet of terrain clearance.

I was cruising along V100 at my assigned altitude going from waypoint to waypoint on the airway. The following happens;

1. ATC : “N2468, Turn Left 20 Degrees for Traffic”
2. N2468 : ”Left 20 Degrees N2468”
3. I Turn 20 Degrees left.
5. Time Passes. .and passes.
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“
7. N2468 “ Own Nav, and over to 23.15, N2468”

So I check my GPS, and find an interesting situation. I was traveling from waypoint Alpha to waypoint Bravo when I was vectored. My Vector flight now has me in between waypoints Bravo and Charlie laterally. Flying to Bravo would be going backwards, Charlie would be really inefficient, so I select Direct to Waypoint Delta. I then check in with the new controller:

1. “N2468, Level 6,000, Direct Delta”. He is confused by my ’Direct Delta’ but simply asks which approach I want at KBBB, and sends me Direct to an IAF.

Later on the ground I replay this, and wonder if I made a mistake, in selecting Direct Delta. I could see where when you are outside of the airway, obstacles clearances are not guaranteed. I knew (because of my avionics, general familiarity of the area, AND VMC ) I was assured terrain clearance in this situation, but I could imagine a situation where that would not be the case.

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Here’s a rough sketch of the situation;

Choices are;
Fly Backwards to Bravo
Fly Lateral to Charlie
Fly Forward to Delta.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0308.jpeg
    IMG_0308.jpeg
    202 KB · Views: 71
MauleSkinner said:
yes. You were not cleared “direct” to anywhere.
Click to expand...
True, but I was also vectored off of my flight plan and then told ‘Resume own Nav’ so I am going to have to fly Direct SOMEwhere. My question is where.
 
malcoholio said:
Here’s a rough sketch of the situation;

Choices are;
Fly Backwards to Bravo
Fly Lateral to Charlie
Fly Forward to Delta.
Click to expand...
You simply proceed to the next fix on your flight plan. I think going direct Delta, given your sketch, was fine in this situation, but when in doubt, ask ATC.
 
tsts4 said:
hmmm in that case I’d have asked for direct Delta but not gone direct on my own
Click to expand...
That was the other aspect of this. The Controller flip at the same time as the 'own nav' instruction. My thought there was 'Do I ask him for clarification on where to go ( Charlie or Delta, I never considered Bravo) or do I just pick one ( he did say 'own nav' ) and let the next controller know my choice. I think I'm going to submit this situation to the opposing bases podcast and see what they think!
 
malcoholio said:
I think I'm going to submit this situation to the opposing bases podcast and see what they think!
Click to expand...
Honestly, it's not a big perplexing situation at all. According to your sketch, you were abeam Charlie and moments later the GPS would have sequenced to the next fix (Delta) on its own. You did fine. There was no need to go direct Bravo or Charlie and reintercept the course.
 
dmspilot said:
Resume own nav does not mean do whatever you want, it means fly your flight plan/clearance.
Click to expand...

It does, however, mean that it is up to you to get back to your original course. Remember the OP's route was along an airway. I'm assuming that each fix on the airway was not individually included in the clearance or the flight plan.

Larry in TN said:
If it mattered, the controller would have been more specific.

If you are unsure, request whatever it is that you want.

In RADAR environments, a vector off course almost always ends in a clearance direct to a downline fix. If you want to rejoin an airway quicker, request that instead.

From the P/CG:
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION− Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored.​

In your case, "Resume own navigation", doesn't specify how to return to your route. As long as you do something reasonable, the controller can't complain. If it mattered, he would have given a specific clearance.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. The controller should have been more specific, if they cared about the result. They probably didn't, so they weren't.

RyanB said:
Correct. If ATC gives a vector off course and then gives that instruction and you’re in between fixes, you go back direct the next fix on your flight plan (Charlie in this case) not skip to Delta.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. "Resume own navigation" doesn't carry with it any reasonable expectation of anything, other than you'll get back to your original route at some point. A pilot is left to determine their own intercept angle back to the original course. I see no reason to make a big turn to hurry and get back on the original course, such a turn would be unexpected and undesirable.

malcoholio said:
True, but I was also vectored off of my flight plan and then told ‘Resume own Nav’ so I am going to have to fly Direct SOMEwhere. My question is where.
Click to expand...

Not true. You could fly a heading to intercept the previous route (airway) at any point, between fixes. "Activate Leg" would work. Of course, you could then determine your own intercept angle anyway.

I think the slight confusion with the second controller was just that he was told your routing and probably that the previous controller had you deviating for traffic, but that you were told to resume your course. When you checked in with "direct Delta", it caused a very brief "huh" in his mind since that wasn't quite what was passed to him. But since it wasn't specified, it didn't matter, and all is good.
 
What's a victor airway? LOL.

I think the biggest problem is worrying about telling ATC which waypoint you are going to..."resume own navigation" to me means I pick where I'm going to get back on my flight path (within reason).
 
malcoholio said:
True, but I was also vectored off of my flight plan and then told ‘Resume own Nav’ so I am going to have to fly Direct SOMEwhere. My question is where.
Click to expand...
No, you don’t have to fly direct somewhere. Your OP indicated that you were between two of the fixes on your route. Sounds like you were on course, in which case, you were probably expected to continue on course. if you weren’t, you should clarify your clearance. You checked in with the new guy and told him you were doing something that wasn’t part of your clearance.
 
RussR said:
Not necessarily. "Resume own navigation" doesn't carry with it any reasonable expectation of anything, other than you'll get back to your original route at some point. A pilot is left to determine their own intercept angle back to the original course. I see no reason to make a big turn to hurry and get back on the original course, such a turn would be unexpected and undesirable.
Click to expand...
I didn’t state that you had to reintercept the original course. Read my post right above yours. You’d simply go direct to the next fix in your GPS (ie., direct to Delta from present position).
 
One thing that took a while for me to get my arms around is that most times when you get a confusing instruction, there's way more time than you think to ask. In your situation, I might have asked the new controller for clarification. If the prior one gave you an ambiguous instruction and a frequency change, doubtful there was any near term traffic issues.
 
I think the OP did just fine. In fact I think he did great in that he told the controller exactly what he was doing as soon a practical.
I think the 2nd controller was just expecting you to check in and he was planning sending you to the IAF. Saying you going direct Delta probably made him do a double take as he may have thought you hand been instructed to proceed to Delta and was trying to figure out if there was a reason you needed to go to Delta before the IAF. This is just me guessing.

Brian
 
RyanB said:
I didn’t state that you had to reintercept the original course. Read my post right above yours. You’d simply go direct to the next fix in your GPS (ie., direct to Delta from present position).
Click to expand...
However, depending on the geometry of the situation, the "next" fix in your GPS could be an 80 deg turn or something like that. So the "next" fix is not always the best choice. The 2nd next fix might be better, or even the 3rd next fix, etc.

Or, of course, activate a leg and fly a reasonable heading to intercept the course wherever that might be.
 
Would telling the second controller "Direct Delta to intercept V100" been clearer?
 
RussR said:
However, depending on the geometry of the situation, the "next" fix in your GPS could be an 80 deg turn or something like that. So the "next" fix is not always the best choice. The 2nd next fix might be better, or even the 3rd next fix, etc.

Or, of course, activate a leg and fly a reasonable heading to intercept the course wherever that might be.
Click to expand...
Fair point!
 
malcoholio said:
6. ATC : “N2468 Resume own Nav, and switch to (new controller) on 23.15“

Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to a airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?
Click to expand...
Just based on my own experiences, ATC normally clears us to resume our own navigation to a specified fix, intersection, navaid, or destination; or sometimes to join/rejoin a route. This has happened often enough that I expect to hear it this way, and if the controller were to omit the segment or point I am expected to navigate to, I would inquire. Could it be that the controller issued a clearance that went more like, “N2468 Resume own Nav to Charlie, and switch to (new controller)?"
 
malcoholio said:
Short question is : When told “Resume Own Nav” when in this strange location in relation to an airway, what would be the expected return to the airway?
Click to expand...
There is no universal. I’ve heard multiple answers from both pilots and controllers.

When ATC doesn’t specify a return point, I figure they don’t care and I just choose what I think is reasonable. I inform the controller to be sure we’re on the same page. In your scenario I would have done as you did If I had chosen Delta as my return. Usually, it‘s to the controller who told you to proceed on course, but you were in the middle of a frequency change.

You were already returning on course and were already close enough. The new controller really didn‘t care. If they don’t, why should I?
 
Country Flier said:
What's a victor airway? LOL.
Click to expand...
It’s something that unpressurized planes use to get through the Rockies without having to suck on oxygen all day long. Obsolete otherwise. And I’m not convinced the OP needed to use one if the mountainous terrain he was overflying allowed a route at 6,000 MSL, but I wasn’t there so I can’t say for sure. :)

Hang 4 said:
One thing that took a while for me to get my arms around is that most times when you get a confusing instruction, there's way more time than you think to ask. In your situation, I might have asked the new controller for clarification. If the prior one gave you an ambiguous instruction and a frequency change, doubtful there was any near term traffic issues.
Click to expand...
This. The OP’s navigation and radio calls were fine, but when you’re on with Center in most of the country, you usually have lots of dead air on the radio. So go ahead and fill a few seconds of it with clear (but not too verbose) information and questions. “Level 6,000, direct Delta to rejoin V100.” Or “We just got back to our own navigation after a vector for traffic. Do you mind if we go direct Delta to rejoin V100?”
 
iamtheari said:
This. The OP’s navigation and radio calls were fine, but when you’re on with Center in most of the country, you usually have lots of dead air on the radio. So go ahead and fill a few seconds of it with clear (but not too verbose) information and questions. “Level 6,000, direct Delta to rejoin V100.” Or “We just got back to our own navigation after a vector for traffic. Do you mind if we go direct Delta to rejoin V100?”
Click to expand...

I'm not IFR but I would have been asking and not telling ... "request direct to Delta to rejoin V100"
 
iamtheari said:
It’s something that unpressurized planes use to get through the Rockies without having to suck on oxygen all day long. Obsolete otherwise.
Click to expand...

I know this is besides the point of the OP, but airways are very commonly used for IFR traffic in south Texas due to all the MOAs. Say, anything from San Antonio south.
 
I would have thought about clarifying with the controller, and then realize the next one will know better anyway and done exactly what the OP did.
 
When I get this deviation from ATC, they 99% clear me back into the route by giving me direct to next waypoint, like others mentioned.
 
iamtheari said:
It’s something that unpressurized planes use to get through the Rockies without having to suck on oxygen all day long. Obsolete otherwise.
Click to expand...
Airways, and the ground-based NAVAIDS that define them, are the backbone of the air traffic control system.

Most of the globe lacks ATC RADAR coverage. Many areas, which otherwise have good ATC RADAR coverage, have mountainous terrain which limits the use of RADAR to higher altitudes. RNAV and RADAR supplement the airways system to allow greater airspace utilization and increased efficiency.

Pilots who learn to fly, and earn their instrument rating, in areas with good RADAR coverage often come to believe that it is RADAR and RNAV that are the basis of the ATC system. This can result is some very big surprises when they venture out into mountainous or less populated areas of the world.

I encourage all instrument pilots to read the AIM and the Instrument Procedures Handbook.

About ten years ago, I briefly few for a large CRJ operator, under a Big 3 codeshare, when I was furloughed from my previous job flying 767s. The young (I'm old) kids I flew with were very sharp and very good at what they did. Their understanding of the ATC system beyond RADAR and RNAV was limited. One night, when assigned to ferry a CRJ with the FMS inoperative, neither the Dispatcher nor Captain could figure out how to file an IFR route using only VORs and airways because there wasn't a VOR on the field at the destination. This isn't just a low-time GA pilot phenomenon.
 
In addition to whatever other considerations applied, I would want to make sure that whatever route I chose provided terrain and obstruction clearance. Although the OP was in VMC, this type of situation could come up in IMC or night VMC as well.
 
Palmpilot said:
In addition to whatever other considerations applied, I would want to make sure that whatever route I chose provided terrain and obstruction clearance. Although the OP was in VMC, this type of situation could come up in IMC or night VMC as well.
Click to expand...
One hopes ATC doesn't vector you into the rocks for traffic or tell you to "resume your own navigation" without any more details when there are rocks between your airplane and your cleared route of flight. But the rocks don't care if ATC falls short of that hope, so it's best to be sure on your own what lies ahead.
 
iamtheari said:
One hopes ATC doesn't vector you into the rocks for traffic or tell you to "resume your own navigation" without any more details when there are rocks between your airplane and your cleared route of flight. But the rocks don't care if ATC falls short of that hope, so it's best to be sure on your own what lies ahead.
Click to expand...
An instructor I knew and liked got vectored into some of the local rocks one night, which is one of the reasons I'm keenly aware of the potential for error.
 
Interesting postulate. Since the waypoints are roughly in a line, seems like rejoining the course from Charlie to Delta might have been the expectation. You are clearly past Bravo and about parallel with Charlie, so flying backwards is not in the cards.

But better to remove all ambiguity and just say "N1234 can we get direct Delta?" as soon as ATC says resume own nav in this case. They'll say sure. You could probably ask for the point after Delta in many cases. Always confer when unsure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top