The reg is clear. He's done landing when he's on the ground. He's protected from others only for the purpose of getting out of the way for the next guy. It's worded pretty simply.
who has right of way, backtaxi vs landing aircraft?
- Thread starter rbridges
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Backtaxi disappeared from the ControllerSpeak a while back. It is now "taxi via the runway."
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I’ve been on both controlled and uncontrolled runways and can’t recall any term replacing the term “backtaxi.” If the term backtaxi has been replaced, I really want to know the correct term so that I am properly informed.
As far as hearing the term on a controlled vs, uncontrolled runway, I have heard and used the term much more frequently on uncontrolled runways.
As far as hearing the term on a controlled vs, uncontrolled runway, I have heard and used the term much more frequently on uncontrolled runways.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
And BY REGULATION when is he REQUIRED to start getting out of the way?
Larry in TN
En-Route
You guys are making this too complicated. The regulation says,
The aircraft on the runway must attempt to make way for the aircraft on approach. If there is somewhere he can safely pull off the runway and allow the landing then he is required to do so under 14 CFR 91.113(g).
Back-taxi is the first entry in the "B" section of the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Outside the US, you more often hear the term "Back-track".
except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach
The aircraft on the runway must attempt to make way for the aircraft on approach. If there is somewhere he can safely pull off the runway and allow the landing then he is required to do so under 14 CFR 91.113(g).
Back-taxi is the first entry in the "B" section of the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Outside the US, you more often hear the term "Back-track".
BACK-TAXI− A term used by air traffic controllers to taxi an aircraft on the runway opposite to the traffic flow. The aircraft may be instructed to back-taxi to the beginning of the runway or at some point before reaching the runway end for the purpose of departure or to exit the runway
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Thanks Ron. Good to know. I don’t remember having been in a situation to hear it. The controlled fields I go into are not short on taxiways. Since at a controlled field you are simply doing what you’re told, there is probably no need for a term that does not indicate direction. On a small muni with no or minimal taxiways, the term “backtaxi” seems to be a useful term.
Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
You did what I would have done as well. You had the right of way. Yes he was a butthead.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Where can I find the simple wording? Is he one the ground when he touches with one wheel, two wheels, or three wheels? What if he bounces? If he does a wheel landing and taxis with the tail up, when is it over? What if he does a soft field landing in a tricycle gear and does a wheelie for another hundred feet? What about flying the airplane all the way to the tie down?
jimhorner
Line Up and Wait
Not at my airport (KSJC). Just a couple of days ago I got this instruction: "Niner Echo Lima, enter three zero left at Bravo, Backtaxi to at least Alpha for wake turbulence, cleared for takeoff three zero left"
And a few days before (after landing on 30R): "Niner Echo Lima, turn left at Foxtrot, Backtaxi on three zero left to Charlie, taxi to parking this frequency.
San Jose is a class C airport, and they use backtaxi frequently as an instruction to GA traffic.
chemgeek
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The most important rule, regardless of FARs and AIM guidance, is "don't be a d**k." Before our airport had a parallel taxiway, there was only the runway and one entrance/exit from it. If you landed and went past that exit on rollout (happened often, because the exit was close to the end most often used for landing), you had to taxi back to the exit. From the other end of the runway, you had a LONG taxi to the exit.
Those on the runway normally expedited their exit, but it takes a little time. Certainly, no one expected anyone to taxi off into the grass. (No way I'm doing that in my plane.) And those in the pattern planned their turns to allow time for those on the ground to exit. The only place to hide an aircraft on the runway for another landing aircraft in a tearing hurry would be to taxi to either end of the runway and hide on one of the runup pads. It was quicker to just taxi to the exit, even if it took a little while. A little courtesy and common sense goes a long way. Instead of focusing on who is "right", how about focusing on safety and cooperation?
Those on the runway normally expedited their exit, but it takes a little time. Certainly, no one expected anyone to taxi off into the grass. (No way I'm doing that in my plane.) And those in the pattern planned their turns to allow time for those on the ground to exit. The only place to hide an aircraft on the runway for another landing aircraft in a tearing hurry would be to taxi to either end of the runway and hide on one of the runup pads. It was quicker to just taxi to the exit, even if it took a little while. A little courtesy and common sense goes a long way. Instead of focusing on who is "right", how about focusing on safety and cooperation?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
The CFI in this case is an *******. If I'm going into a strip without a taxiway I make certain I have a plan worked out with anyone involved before I turn final. If there is an airplane there I make certain he or she gets a chance to axe back if that's what they want to do.
danhagan
En-Route
We were using our taxiway as a runway twice in the past 10 years ... if you tried to "pull off" the drop off would insure a prop strike, but at our field, not really anyway to pull off due to sand dunes, bushes etc
Brad Z
Final Approach
It sounds like he OP needed to backtaxi to get to *his* hangar. It’s not clear from the original post that you would necessary have to backtaxi to get to the FBO or somewhere else on the field. So unless the CFI knew the OP or he plane personally, the CFI might not have expected the OP to backtaxi after landing.
OP, correct me if I’m wrong.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
You are welcome to put it in the dirt of unknown condition. I am waiting for a taxiway exit.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
"a long time" makes sense. There's rarely a need to backtaxi at a towered airport. They tend to have multiple taxiway exits and it's only when there are closures the issue would even come up. OTOH, there are plenty of small nontowered airports with no parallel taxiway or limited ramp access form the parallel taxiway. I can envision numerous backtaxi situations in which there would be no place to go. As @EdFred said, we need a taxi diagram.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Back taxi
Ravioli
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Ron - "taxi via the runway" doesn't make sense if you need to back taxi, which is intended to taxi opposite the flow. Can you imagine the confusion if someone landed on 18 and was instructed "taxi via runway 36"
All others - The way I was taught:
Land and taxi back - Pilot intends to land, clear the runway, and return to the departure point on a taxiway without re-entering the runway until ready for the next launch.
Land and back taxi - Pilot intends a full stop landing, a 180 on the runway without ever clearing, and taxiing in the opposite direction until clearing.
Both can be "intentions" at non-towered fields or "requests" at towered fields.
In the common case of KFWS --
Aircraft cleared to land on 17R that intends to park on the East side of the airport are frequently asked if they'd like to exit E or F and backtaxi on 17L
Aircraft cleared to land on 17L are almost always instructed to backtaxi 17L when able
However: Aircraft cleared to land on 35L parking on the East are given full length to C, one of the left turns to B and then right to C, or a right turn at F or E to TAXI via 35R (that isn't back taxi because it's the flow of the runway. Also of note, 17L/35R is turf so some pilots decline the offer to go off roading.
Croomrider
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Mike
I was recently instructed after landing, at out class D airport, to do a 180 on the runway and back taxi to the approach end because there was a helicopter landing on the parallel taxiway.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
No, we need another one of your flow charts
tspear
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Timothy
Did I say it had to make sense? I just am just answering the question as to why you don't hear it from ATC. They deleted the concept several years back. It's either proceed or tax via the runway now.
Dave Theisen
En-Route
I still hear “back taxi” all the time from controllers.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you. I know I’ve definitely heard back taxi in the past few years though. @Timbeck2 @Radar Contact
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
It should be, but I’ve been yelled at as well, by local school CFIs, but they were called out by the FBO...I’m not going off pavement in my Mooney.
Larry in TN
En-Route
AIM 4-3-20
a. Exiting the Runway After Landing The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
a. Exiting the Runway After Landing The following procedures must be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Apparently they forgot to delete it from the Pilot/Controller Glossary.
tspear
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Timothy
AIM is not regulatory, and note it references ATC so this is a controlled airfield. Please provide the regulation for an uncontrolled field.
Tim
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
I think it's worth striving for a higher standard of airmanship and courtesy than "the FARs don't explicitly require it."
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
This has been an interesting thread and learning the verbiage regarding the requirement for vacating the runway is interesting. The practical and courteous side of this, however, lies in the hands of the plane coming behind the one on the runway. Personally I would have to be dealing with an emergency before I would land on a runway that was not clear of aircraft. I’ll do 360’s, S’s or simply go around before I will land behind someone occupying the runway as described early in the thread. If someone wants to be disrespectful to the point of crowding another airplane on the runway, they have a different sense of respect for others than I do.
Doug Reid
Cleared for Takeoff
How about using common sense...not quoting some rule that may or may not apply to every case. The parallel taxiway at 60J has been closed for a long time. If you are landing on RWY 06, you have to "back taxi" 4000 feet. You might be able to pull off the end of the runway on to an old paved portion to get out out the way if someone is landing behind you, but if someone has landed and already back taxiing, most of us make another round in the pattern to allow the plane on the ground to get back to the ramp. Uncontrolled airport courtesy.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
It's not about quoting a rule it's about stating that it's required but then not having the regulation to back it up. Sort of like a logging pic thread, or any other number of instances where "my CFI said..."
If you say it's good practice nobody's going to disagree with that, if you say it's required by regulation then show us the regulation.
guzziguy
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guzziguy
3,000 feet I believe is the necessary separation, but I'm no ATC guy
Piper18O
Pre-takeoff checklist
This incident is all about the d*** factor. and it seems to me that the landing cfi was in control of that d*** factor. He chose to be a d*** and tell the OP to clear the runway. He could have said something like "N222W half mile final for runway 36, aircraft on the runway are you able to clear the runway or do I need to go around?" This would have allowed the OP to say "Negative, I must back taxi because the taxiway is closed." Then the OP would have been the d***. The other option in this second scenario would have been that the OP could have said, "I will clear the runway now so you can land and then continue my back taxi after you are down." In this solution everyone is offered the chance to be courteous, and no one has to be a d***.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
I can't quote a rule, but answering in a vacuum, as the pilot who landed, I would probably taxi or back taxi to the nearest exit which would get me permanently off the runway. The aircraft in the air should go around.
If not, how long should I wait? There are 10 airplanes calling in for landing in sequence. Wait while nine of them lands and joins me in the holding area?
Give me a specific scenario and a specific runway configuration and my answer might be different.
Who has the right of way between someone who is rightfully on the runway and someone who isn't in the runway? Really?
If not, how long should I wait? There are 10 airplanes calling in for landing in sequence. Wait while nine of them lands and joins me in the holding area?
Give me a specific scenario and a specific runway configuration and my answer might be different.
Who has the right of way between someone who is rightfully on the runway and someone who isn't in the runway? Really?
tspear
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Timothy
If you read the thread, @Larry in TN made the assertion it was regulatory. We are not discussing the courtesy side it, which has been rehashed a half dozen times in this thread.
Tim
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tspear
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Timothy
That is one for ATC which varies by plane size. No such rules for uncontrolled airports that I know of.
Tim
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luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
I’m sure what @flyingron is referring to is that the ‘phraseology’ “back taxi” is not in the Controllers rule book, the 7110.65. Taxi on and taxi via are. I don’t remember if it used to be. Probably. The BACK-TAXI entry in the PC/G would bear this out. Do naughty controllers sometimes say things that aren’t in the book? Yes. Always have, always will. The PC/G thing is only pertinent if a Controller says it. Seeing as how they do sometimes, I’d say leave it in there.