Filing IFR in VMC

Rykymus

Rykymus

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Rykymus
Now that I have my instrument rating, my CFII told me to file everything as IFR, even if it is VMC, so that I get experience working in the system. I have no argument with that, and quite enjoy flying under IFR. But I wonder if I am creating an unnecessary burden for ATC. On the one hand, I can imagine then wondering why the hell I'm filing IFR in VMC, but then I wonder if I make it easier for them because they know where I plan to go, and I am required to fly my clearance.

I would appreciate any insights. I plan to continue filing IFR for every XC for awhile. Just curious how doing so might affect the system, either positively or negatively.
 
Rykymus said:
But I wonder if I am creating an unnecessary burden for ATC. On the one hand, I can imagine then wondering why the hell I'm filing IFR in VMC, but then I wonder if I make it easier for them because they know where I plan to go, and I am required to fly my clearance.
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VFR, IFR doesn't much matter to them. They're miles away in a dark room and you're just a blip on the screen to them...they don't wonder much why you filed IFR or not.

Filing IFR is a good thing at your stage. Eventually you'll run into situations where IFR may be preferable to VFR, or VFR is preferable to IFR. With experience you'll be able to seamlessly switch back and forth as necessary and operationally beneficial for you.
 
I have hundreds of hours on IFR plans and only 10 hours in the clouds.
 
You are indeed giving them a burden.
Why do you think they say "can you depart VFR?" From an uncontrolled strip?
At a towered airport it may be more hidden... in the form of several minutes before launch
 
Don't worry about it.

Just keep in mind IFR and VFR are two diffrent skill sets, and if you're always IFR you can loose proficiency in VFR, best to keep well rounded, but with your fresh new ticket jumping in with both feet for a while is a good idea, just don't forget your VFR stuff too ;)
 
I disagree. I think a long term IFR guy would do more homework than a semi IFR pilot that chooses to fly VFR. Certain routes may be known by the regulars, but that doesn't mean a new to the area pilot should try to fly the ins and outs through the LA airspace.

Fly IFR if you are rated, unless you truly understand your local airspace.
 
Kritchlow said:
I disagree. I think a long term IFR guy would do more homework than a semi IFR pilot that chooses to fly VFR. Certain routes may be known by the regulars, but that doesn't mean a new to the area pilot should try to fly the ins and outs through the LA airspace.

Fly IFR if you are rated, unless you truly understand your local airspace.
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Busy airspace is where VFR really is a great tool to have in your belt, I can cut major time off my routing into so very busy airspace by mixing IFR and VFR.

A class D is a class D, a class B is a class B and a sectional is a sectional, especially if you have GPS, VFR doesn't require any crazy local knowledge at all.

Both IFR and VFR are great tools, but I've seen IFR guys who never go VFR get to the point they aren't comfortable doing anything outside of the local area VFR ops, and I've seen rusty IFR pilots who are just as bad, often times worse if they end up trying to work that rust off in actual.
 
James331 said:
Don't worry about it.

Just keep in mind IFR and VFR are two diffrent skill sets, and if you're always IFR you can loose proficiency in VFR, best to keep well rounded, but with your fresh new ticket jumping in with both feet for a while is a good idea, just don't forget your VFR stuff too ;)
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What VFR skills would you loose filing IFR as opposed to flying the same route VFR with flight following?
 
Brad Z said:
What VFR skills would you loose filing IFR as opposed to flying the same route VFR with flight following?
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Knowing who you need to talk to and who you don't, altitudes in consideration with airspace, few other little things, all that's kinda spoon fed to you IFR, descend this altitude, change to this frequency, airspace is handled, it's just different and is a area I've seen some guys get a little rusty and then uncomfortable.
 
No burden and in busier airspace you likely make things easier for ATC being IFR.
 
James331 said:
Knowing who you need to talk to and who you don't, altitudes in consideration with airspace, few other little things, all that's kinda spoon fed to you IFR, descend this altitude, change to this frequency, airspace is handled, it's just different and is a area I've seen some guys get a little rusty and then uncomfortable.
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But you're full of it James. No difference as far as lost skills and knowledge whether flying under a IFR flight plan or just flying around VFR.
 
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Brad Z said:
What VFR skills would you loose filing IFR as opposed to flying the same route VFR with flight following?
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Depends on the pilot and what they do en route. I don't think these are big deals but here's two.

VFR communication as related to airspace is one. IFR you are always in communication, so you never worry about when and who you have to talk to.

It's also easy to get used to relying on instrument navigation exclusively and have difficulty, say finding an airport visually. For example, some training providers recommend always loading an approach during visual approaches for situational awareness, suggesting seasoned instrument pilots have more trouble with them than student pilots. I once flew with a pilot who couldn't locate a large interstate below up without taking VOR cross-radials.
 
I think it's a good idea to loose your IFR skills on the local ATC folks every chance you get, as familiarity with clearance copying and getting used to the different kinds of curve balls ATC can throw at you goes a long way to getting comfortable flying in the system, and communication is an important skill in itself. To be honest I never worried that I might be placing an undue burden on ATC, and I flew in a fairly busy airspace (Detroit) for a few years.

In any case, keeping in practice by filing IFR definitely helps ensure that you don't lose some important skills. :)
 
Rykymus said:
Now that I have my instrument rating, my CFII told me to file everything as IFR, even if it is VMC, so that I get experience working in the system. I have no argument with that, and quite enjoy flying under IFR. But I wonder if I am creating an unnecessary burden for ATC. On the one hand, I can imagine then wondering why the hell I'm filing IFR in VMC, but then I wonder if I make it easier for them because they know where I plan to go, and I am required to fly my clearance.

I would appreciate any insights. I plan to continue filing IFR for every XC for awhile. Just curious how doing so might affect the system, either positively or negatively.
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As a former controller, you're not. Good controllers love the challenge of working a variety of aircraft. Also, the more planes they work makes that facility busier, and the busier they are (traffic count) the higher the pay grades are. Compare controllers at Montgomery AL to Atlanta for instance.

But, to answer your question, it's to your benefit to participate as much as you can in the system. Remember, that instrument rating allows you to really begin learning. You'll find things that are new to you and weren't covered in training, and some things you learned you'll never use. I agree with your CFI.
 
If you are not using FF then you are making it easier for the controller with VFR vs IFR. Not much of a burden for them by going IFR though. Plenty of slow approach facilities out there that need those IFR operations added to their traffic count. That's what keeps them in business.

Personally, I kinda use the logic from flying in my Army days. Are there serious ATC delays with going IFR? Is the purpose of the flight for VFR training? Can the "mission" only be accomplished by flying VFR? If yes to any of those questions, then I'm going VFR and most likely be up on FF.
 
anymore.....IFR is just as easy and fast as VFR. With the higher density of traffic in my area IFR is an extra added safety layer. Sometimes they may even call out VFR traffic for ya. :D
 
ATC works for you. You don't work for ATC. If you as PIC want to file IFR, do it. The system that supports you will accommodate.
 
I've heard controllers say that they would much rather have everyone talking to them. Vastly easier on them than a bunch of VFR drones buzzing around with no control or comms.
 
NJP_MAN said:
I have hundreds of hours on IFR plans and only 10 hours in the clouds.
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Wait a minute - don't you fly a Falcon professionally?
 
kayoh190 said:
Wait a minute - don't you fly a Falcon professionally?
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He ain't logging IMC right. Flew w/ a Chief Pilot who every time he zipped thru a cloud he'd say, "eh there's another .5 for the ole logbook."
 
"United flight 875, clearance to Narita is ready, advise when ready to copy."
"You know, let's just cancel IFR. I'll go VFR. I don't want to burden the system."
"Cancellation received. Have a good day, and thanks."
 
"Aircraft 1234 we have advised routing for your clearance, advise when ready to copy"

"Ready to copy"

"Cleared to KABC via blah blah blah.....................still going, blah blah"

"Sorry to interrupt, 1234 will go VFR direct with flight following"
 
James331 said:
Knowing who you need to talk to and who you don't, altitudes in consideration with airspace, few other little things, all that's kinda spoon fed to you IFR, descend this altitude, change to this frequency, airspace is handled, it's just different and is a area I've seen some guys get a little rusty and then uncomfortable.
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midlifeflyer said:
Depends on the pilot and what they do en route. I don't think these are big deals but here's two.

VFR communication as related to airspace is one. IFR you are always in communication, so you never worry about when and who you have to talk to.

It's also easy to get used to relying on instrument navigation exclusively and have difficulty, say finding an airport visually. For example, some training providers recommend always loading an approach during visual approaches for situational awareness, suggesting seasoned instrument pilots have more trouble with them than student pilots. I once flew with a pilot who couldn't locate a large interstate below up without taking VOR cross-radials.
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Perhaps I do things a bit differently than others while IFR or VFR.

When I fly VFR with flight following, I almost always get a proper hand-off or at least a frequency suggestion for the next sector, so I don't have to many issues finding frequencies. Even if I did, Foreflight makes it so easy to find the center or tracon frequency of a nearby airport that figuring out who to call is quite trivial.

As far as altitudes and airspace, when I fly IFR I'm following along on my sectionals looking ahead for potential terrain or airspace conflicts so I don't get last minute vectors around active restricted areas or MOAs. If I was flying in the flight levels I probably would bother too much with VFR sectionals but flying a single I always been in the habit of following along on the charge paying close attention to landmarks, airports, roads, etc., even when IFR.

If I can see out the window, I'm looking out the window.

As far as finding airports, I'm not above using IFR approaches when VFR--particularly at night--to find and get set up for arrival into the airport.
 
James331 said:
"Aircraft 1234 we have advised routing for your clearance, advise when ready to copy"

"Ready to copy"

"Cleared to KABC via blah blah blah.....................still going, blah blah"

"Sorry to interrupt, 1234 will go VFR direct with flight following"
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Damn you so bad James!

upload_2016-12-7_9-27-10.png
 
James331 said:
"Aircraft 1234 we have advised routing for your clearance, advise when ready to copy"

"Ready to copy"

"Cleared to KABC via blah blah blah.....................still going, blah blah"

"Sorry to interrupt, 1234 will go VFR direct with flight following"
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I've gotten those clearances too. Sometimes you'll luck out and just get cleared direct once you check in on frequency. Other times you'll initially get a easy clearance but then get the "Advise ready to copy amendment to your routing" call.

With foreflight and flightaware, you can see the clearance before calling ATC. Sometimes a long meandering routing on a VMC day is enough to just check in with ATC and let them know you have an IFR plan in the system but you'll just be going IFR instead. I believe that makes it easier for them since they already have a "Strip" for you in the system.
 
Just doing my job, they don't pay me to take folks on scenics up and down the seaboard, I'm paid to get that plane as quickly from A to B as possible while keeping it safe and within the FARs, flying some crazy routing when I can just go VFR and keep my track a straight line, this just seems a obvious choice.
 
mscard88 said:
He ain't logging IMC right. Flew w/ a Chief Pilot who every time he zipped thru a cloud he'd say, "eh there's another .5 for the ole logbook."
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Haha - I used to work with a 135 DO that wouldn't bother to keep a logbook, but would increment his total time 1000 hours per year on the various paperwork needed for insurance, ARG/US audits, etc. He *might* have flown 100 hours per year.

mscard88 said:
Damn you so bad James!
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Man, way to bring back memories. Awesome!
 
James331 said:
Just doing my job, they don't pay me to take folks on scenics up and down the seaboard, I'm paid to get that plane as quickly from A to B as possible while keeping it safe and within the FARs, flying some crazy routing when I can just go VFR and keep my track a straight line, this just seems a obvious choice.
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I know, just screwing with you.
 
kayoh190 said:
Wait a minute - don't you fly a Falcon professionally?
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I do, not a lot of clouds at FL450 and our destinations tend to be great weather. If I owned a falcon I'd probably follow around the good weather too. I would also note that our kind of operation doesn't fly a lot of hours annually so the end result is 2 instrument approaches in over a year.
 
James331 said:
Just doing my job, they don't pay me to take folks on scenics up and down the seaboard, I'm paid to get that plane as quickly from A to B as possible while keeping it safe and within the FARs, flying some crazy routing when I can just go VFR and keep my track a straight line, this just seems a obvious choice.
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Sure, as long as it's VMC the whole way.

Based in the DC area, I'm basically on the dividing line of ATC routing practice. Everything north of me is airways. Everything south and west is pretty much direct routing. As such, my default heading northbound is VFR, unless weather dictates otherwise. Heading southbound, my default is IFR, unless there's a reason that won't work ( like flying at low altitudes below ATC MVAs to avoid hellacious winds aloft).
 
mscard88 said:
He ain't logging IMC right. Flew w/ a Chief Pilot who every time he zipped thru a cloud he'd say, "eh there's another .5 for the ole logbook."
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Exactly the way I do it. I just do .1 every time I punch through a cloud and that's only about every 6th flight or so
 
Brad Z said:
Sure, as long as it's VMC the whole way.

Based in the DC area, I'm basically on the dividing line of ATC routing practice. Everything north of me is airways. Everything south and west is pretty much direct routing. As such, my default heading northbound is VFR, unless weather dictates otherwise. Heading southbound, my default is IFR, unless there's a reason that won't work ( like flying at low altitudes below ATC MVAs to avoid hellacious winds aloft).
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Or VMC far enough to get you out of the busy airspace safely/IAW FARs.
 
NJP_MAN said:
I do, not a lot of clouds at FL450 and our destinations tend to be great weather. If I owned a falcon I'd probably follow around the good weather too. I would also note that our kind of operation doesn't fly a lot of hours annually so the end result is 2 instrument approaches in over a year.
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Oh, I'm sure. Anyone flying jets doesn't spend a huge percentage of time in IMC. I was more commenting on your hundreds of hours on IFR flight plans - I just didn't realize you were so low time. But hey, good for you. Smoke 'em if you got 'em! :)
 
I always start off IFR. Its not a burned on them. In fact, it is more often a burden on me. Ill go IFR until I get some quirky handling and I always have the option to cancel with them in the air!!
 
If I know it's VMC, I won't file because the routing will take a much longer time than direct. If it's VMC at my departure airport and MVFR or IFR at destination I'll usually depart VFR then pick up the clearance in the air once I'm past all the busy airspace.
 
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Rykymus said:
Now that I have my instrument rating, my CFII told me to file everything as IFR, even if it is VMC, so that I get experience working in the system. I have no argument with that, and quite enjoy flying under IFR. But I wonder if I am creating an unnecessary burden for ATC. On the one hand, I can imagine then wondering why the hell I'm filing IFR in VMC, but then I wonder if I make it easier for them because they know where I plan to go, and I am required to fly my clearance.

I would appreciate any insights. I plan to continue filing IFR for every XC for awhile. Just curious how doing so might affect the system, either positively or negatively.
Click to expand...

Controller pay and upgrades are based in part on traffic volume, so you are actually helping, not hurting, by filing. Taking your position into absurdity, what if a certain sector had its traffic count decline precipitously; from a management viewpoint it is time to shift those controllers to other positions and combine sectors, maybe even lay someone off.

Bob Gardner
 
Brad Z said:
What VFR skills would you loose filing IFR as opposed to flying the same route VFR with flight following?
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Self-navigation. Pilotage. All the stuff we were taught as student pilots. The ability to let a nonpilot fly.

It is indeed quite useful for a new instrument pilot to fly IFR frequently (VMC or otherwise), but not to the exclusion of all VFR flight.

Flying in unfamiliar airspace IFR may get you some "interesting" clearances. Especially southern California. If you've never flown a named TEC route, the first one is going to be a "WTF." Be aware, Foreflight can plot them, but it isn't always right -- in particular, it has trouble plotting a route that contains two victor airways with no intervening fix. Always verify the route of flight against the chart supplement.
 
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